"No Master Loot" discussion

[exochaft]

Qhick qustion: why do you have bad players in your progression guild?

Let's put it this way: you can't always get what you want. Unless you are on a high/full population server, your pool of players capable of mythic progression are already low (even high population servers can struggle with this, especially if the faction balance is lopsided). Notice I said capable, not good. The skill range runs wide, and while every guild wants the best of the best raiders who are deemed good, that's never going to happen. Also, people's definition of "good" and "bad" is pretty varied, and while a person can be good for another guild's demands... they can be bad for another guild's demands.

I used to raid top 30-50 US, and even we had issues with what we considered bad players for our level of play. A lot. This is why we always had a large flux of applicants if we could, but eventually the server population dwindled to where we couldn't keep up recruitment to where we wanted. Therefore, we had to do raids with people we normally wouldn't want, but we didn't have a choice if we wanted to raid. Eventually the guild disbanded because server population basically disappeared and the effort was not worth the squeeze at that point.

While in a much more casual environment for raiding, I still do mythic progression (albeit much slower versus full clearing in the first couple weeks). I'm on a high population server now, but we still have issues with recruitment and getting players that are good enough for our standards, even if we set the bar lower than what my former guilds would take. As it stands, it's still a chore to maintain a roster to ensure there's enough for raid, let alone how picky we can be with applicants. Even then, there's a clear difference in the roster between the strong and weak players.

Back on topic, the ROI when giving gear to the weak players tends to be low compared to giving gear to the stronger players in most cases. I said most, as there can be diminishing returns feeding all the gear to one player if the upgrades are tiny. However, that should be the prerogative of the guild/raid: assigning loot where it'll be used the best. Despite conjecture in some responses in this thread, sometimes the best option is giving a piece to the bad player(s) in your group over the good ones as the net gain may be more. Just funneling everything to one person or several good people at the start of the tier is generally a solid plan and the best ROI you can make for the drops versus giving the gear to someone who tends to die early or screw up more often on progression.

All this ties in to one of the major weaknesses of PL over ML: you cannot min/max your group for progression as easily as you could with ML. Despite the snide remarks, every raid has good and bad people in it, it's just a relative matter. If you think that even at the top the discussion of who gets what based upon skill/performance isn't made, you're woefully ignorant.

[Draylock]

No, investment in "good" players cripple your progression. If you have truly bad players in your raid group then your recruitment methods sucks.
While they are probably just mediocre players. And yes you invest in all players equally. Giving item to player that has 10 ilvl upgrade while other guy has 45 ilvl upgrade is pants on head retarded.

Yes good players don't badmouth others, watch method/limit guys streams sometimes. They don't openly say player X is bad, never. They don't need to boost their ego.

Don't say anything about intelligently raiding while intentionally crippling your progression. You are literally THE reason why master loot was removed.
You don't raid on that level to expect people to farm gear intensively and it can happen to have bad luck. One piece of gear doesn't determine his skill nor dedication.

Oh wow, I never imagined it can be so hard for some people to understand even the easiest concepts. Ok, another try.

There is no "equality" between players. Some are strictly better, some are strictly worse. If a player is good - you reward their effort and time investment while also making your raid team stronger. Giving gear to players who perform worse is a retarded decision, based on this emotional socialist bullshit of "everyone being equal".
If you were reading the previous posts, you'd know why medium-range guild cannot just kick every single bad player or be too picky with their roster, I'm not gonna repeat all that explanation.

All players badmouth others. It's part of human nature. You know it (hopefully), I know it, so drop this idealistic braindead mantra. If some of your twitch idols are nice people on camera, it doesn't matter that they don't talk about this behind closed doors.
Also, does this mean that you're a pretty shitty player? All you've been doing is insecure badmouthing, cause "boo hoo, nobody cared to give me loot "

You must be that guy, that's too dumb to understand that you don't just go into mythic raids with pieces of gear that are below LFR ilvl (that means you could pick up upgrades in m0 dungeons) and then expect to get everything cause "HURR DURR ME ILVL UPGRADE".
And if you do get in - you don't expect to get all the gear immediately unless you're literally out-of-this-world performer or a crucial piece of the team. That hunter was neither, we just took him for the bosses that were on-farm cause we could. And obviously, that wasn't the single bad piece of gear he had. I thought it was pretty obvious, but I guess nothing can be too obvious for you...

[kaminaris]

Oh wow, I never imagined it can be so hard for some people to understand even the easiest concepts. Ok, another try.

There is no "equality" between players. Some are strictly better, some are strictly worse. If a player is good - you reward their effort and time investment while also making your raid team stronger. Giving gear to players who perform worse is a retarded decision, based on this emotional socialist bullshit of "everyone being equal".

There is no another try, you have no idea what emotional bullshit is. Mathematics and cold heart logic is giving items to players that has highest upgrade, period.
You are intentionally crippling your progression.

[Huzzaa]

I wouldn't bother with kaminaris if I were you.

Dudes in my ignore list for a year now I think.

[Gaidax]

It's not a progression guild. I think he said they were 4/12M.
It's a casual shitter guild that tips into mythic at the end of expac.

He's just talking about it like they were a important progression guild.

kekw, so I guess he's just another forum warrior talking shit.

"U gief best itenz to ur bestest players, dis way we knae kil Shadhar in September 2020!".

Frankly, this is exactly the case I'm talking about why new loot system is good - it prevents dimwitted officers in fringe guilds from bleeding their guildies dry and turning them into farm bots for the select few "good" players.

[Draylock]

There is no another try, you have no idea what emotional bullshit is. Mathematics and cold heart logic is giving items to players that has highest upgrade, period.
You are intentionally crippling your progression.

Please educate yourself a little bit on "Return on Investment". And don't make it personal. It's unfortunate that nobody ever funneled loot into you, unless literally nobody else needed said loot, but maybe you should have done something to fix that yourself instead of whining how unfair the world is.

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It's not a progression guild. I think he said they were 4/12M.
It's a casual shitter guild that tips into mythic at the end of expac.

He's just talking about it like they were a important progression guild.

No, actually that's exactly the opposite of what I said. As in, the removal of ML hits the semi-hardcore guilds the hardest, not progressions ones that will just do split runs and trade loot anyway or casual ones that don't really care about optimization. But I guess it's really hard to turn on your brain once in a while if you can just spew bullshit for forum points instead...

[tmamass]

I would welcome ML back in a heartbeat, more choice to the players please.

how is ONE dude decides who gets all the loot more choice for players????

[Draylock]

Unfortunately the game has lost many good things due to a whiny loud minority.

I am pretty sure 99% of the people who complain about master loot are people who didnt read their groups loot rules before they joined it.
Or they are entitled selfish people who thinks they are more important than what would benefit their guilds raid-group.

Either way, giving the choice to organized groups to use master loot should be invoked, players who dislike it can then choose to join PL-groups.

"ML abuse" is code language for "I was/am a shit player and will never get loot in an ML situation".

[tmamass]

I think they should keep personal loot for things like LFR and give the option of ML to organized groups, there is no reason not to.

yes there absolutly is!
ML in Pugs = Ninjas
PL in good Guilds = ZERO problems

[tmamass]

"ML abuse" is code language for "I was/am a shit player and will never get loot in an ML situation".

guess we found the guy who is unhappy he cant ninja anymore

[Draylock]

yes there absolutly is!
ML in Pugs = Ninjas
PL in good Guilds = ZERO problems

But ML in pugs was disabled a long time ago and nobody had a problem with it. This whole discussion is literally about giving organized groups a choice between loot rules. So that when people join the said group they know in advance how loot is done and everyone is happy

[Draylock]

Yeah exactly. For real progression guilds it's not really a problem.
It hits the casual shitter guilds, because those are the ones causing the problems, by having draconic "loot rules" and officers who want to hold councils deciding who is "good enough to get loot" and "who is bad".



Like that.

So on one hand you call guilds that go at least half way through Mythic "casual shitter guilds", which makes the remaining 99% of playerbase even below that level, but on the other hand you have some sort of a PTSD about ML that makes it sound like some sort of Nazi system, made to suppress world proletariat.

Interesting, comrade.

Would you say that a player that usually spends 40-50% of a bossfight dead deserves loot just as much as a player, that usually does top dps while also staying alive?

[OpieOP]

Yeah exactly. For real progression guilds it's not really a problem.

It hits the casual shitter guilds who are just dreaming about being progression guilds, but are in fact just heroic guilds. Those are the ones causing the problems, by having draconic "loot rules" everyone has to "accept" and officers who want to hold councils deciding who is "good enough to get loot" and "who is bad".

Compared to the progression guilds that get into Hall of Fame each tier, yes.

You have no Idea how MOST of the HoF Guilds operate do you? I can tell you a majority of them wishes ML back for reasons that were already mentioned here and everywhere else.

[Draylock]

Ok, but it's not coming back? So?

So we can't even discuss it, cause it triggers your PTSD, got it.

[OpieOP]

Ok, but it's not coming back? So?

Which is still a shame and the most unreasonable blizz can be. So? Especially since they're promoting pLaYeRcHoiCe with their failure that will be covenants

[Draylock]

Compared to the progression guilds that get into Hall of Fame each tier, yes.

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In a casual guild, who cares? It's not like you're going to clear the tier. You raid for "fun" right?
So stop obsessing about what loot others get.

You do realize that you compare top 0.1% of playerbase to the remaining 99.9% and calling all of them shit bases on that? And surely you realize how dumb and redundant such a comparison is, right?

[OpieOP]

Yeah, I can agree with that.

But in the words of the Gunslinger: The world has moved on.

Well not every step is a step in the right direction so, yeah bad idea.

[Draylock]

No, I just called your guild casual shitters. Stop being so offended. Go raid and have fun with Shaddar "progression". Stop obsessing about other players loot drops and you'll be fine in this brave new "no ML"-world.

We killed Shaddar several weeks ago, tyvm. And i assume you're farming N'zoth for months already. I mean, there must be some kind of explanation to you being so condescending... Since it's clearly not your personal qualities, it must be your in-game qualifications, right?

Also, aren't you the one who got all triggered at the mention of ML, literally to the point of trying to bar a discussion of it?
You shouldn't project your insecurities so hard, comrade. You will still be able to join raids with PL, where the effort you put in doesn't matter.

[Draylock]

Yeah, but it's been gone for couple of years now and several tiers. And it's not coming back for SL. So I guess we'll live. Or something.

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Gz on your kill! Did you get a screenshot for your webpage?
I'm actually in a guild very much like yours. We're just casual heroic shitters who dip into mythic occasionally. Usually it goes hilariously badly. Last tier we cleared in time during progression was Nighthold.

Ah, so it is just personal insecurity projected. Well, no need to be scared, comrade, in this new fair "no ML world" you can afk the whole fight and still get rewarded for it.

And yes, my GM took that screenshot, like he always does Why wouldn't he though? We overcame a challenge, why not be happy about it?

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Am I? Can't recall. Can you link so I can be appropriately ashamed of this?

Must I quote all of your messages up till this point only to prove a point?

[OpieOP]

Ps. Also, congrats om your position of being the selected forum spokesperson for MOST of the Hall of Fame guilds. Sounds like a busy job. Can you get me Sco's autograph?

Sorry just recently read your snarky remark from that post. Well since a guild like Method hardly represents the majority of the HoF Guilds my answer is no. But perhaps one day you'll be good enough to hook up with them and get your so desired autograph? Who knows perhaps you'll even be able to talk about something regarding the HoF with more than baseless assumptions? But until that day comes you better stick to the viewpoint you're more adapted with 'Casual-Shitter' comes to mind.

PS: I personally would've gone with Limit's Maximum you know because they performed way better than Method this tier, but since you're out of your element I'll let it slide.