Challenging personal tasks over mindless grind

[wraysbury]

Using the forums as a basis to evaluate whether WoW is successful or not is peak clownery.

It is one of the only publicly available piece of data. On the game I work for, our weekly reports include an assessment of forum activity, which is an important indicator.
It of course doesn't tell the entire story, but it's pretty safe to assume a strong correlation between forum activity and people's interest in the game.

[Varodoc]

It is one of the only publicly available piece of data. On the game I work for, our weekly reports include an assessment of forum activity, which is an important indicator.
It of course doesn't tell the entire story, but it's pretty safe to assume a strong correlation between forum activity and people's interest in the game.

It's not data at all. People bitched and moaned in WotLK and keep bitching and moaning in BfA. Any difference you might notice is 100% an assumption.

[Garymorilix]

I don't really want to believe the average player can't complete a 0 mask run... I mean it would explain how im able to sell carries but come on... that can't really be what we are working with things can't really be that bad.

It's not "bad" it's reality.

The overwhelming majority of players cannot or hardly do even normal raid level content. That's just how it is.
I don't look down on people who know what they're doing for one reason or another, it's their business.

The moment someone comes out, who btw also belong to that crowd, saying how "nothing is challenging" and that shit should be changed even though he himself does not do anything challenging at all either is where I have problems.

If you can sell carries for 0 mask full runs that perfectly illustrates the situation. If those were universially considered easy you wouldn't be able to do that.

Fact is, the challenge is already in the game. People who whine about it "not existing" just refuse to engage with it.

Simple as that.

[Rodzyna]

This is why i prefer action based combat with deep customziation options and flashy animations.
I think is a nice "fix" to make a grind more bearable.
Grinding with a tab target combat system is painful (to me)

Personal preference ofcourse.

Redesign of combat is out of question. It would basically mean "WOW2".
The whole engine, patchworked throughout years, would have to be changed.

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The 15-year old WoW with its constant casual direction is really hard to grasp for the fortnite generation. Going from hours-lasting console games to PC games that last for days/weeks is allready mindblowing for some players. But MMOs and in particular WoW are just to much for the limited imagination.

Lets change a worldwide successful game that did not change at all in 15 years to something that its target audience does not want. What a great idea, its the first of its kind.

You should not position your response as if "console games" are inferior to "PC games" in any means. Same games are published on variety of systems and "console" has nothing to do with it. Fortnite IS a PC game. On top of that, PC gamers are in no way better than console gamers and vice-versa. Device on which you consume media should not make you feel special.

However, I have to agree with you that there is generational change in the mindset. Due to smartphones and F2P games where you can just hop in and hop out after spending 30 minutes playing, less and less people is interested in time consuming entertainment.
Genres like RTS or MMOs, both of which were enormously popular in '90s and '00s, are right now considered to be "dying". It is not so well marketable and profitable as FPSs or Battle-Royals. It requires also much more time investment - something that not a lot of people can or are willing to afford these days.

[Great Destiny Man]

It is one of the only publicly available piece of data. On the game I work for, our weekly reports include an assessment of forum activity, which is an important indicator.
It of course doesn't tell the entire story, but it's pretty safe to assume a strong correlation between forum activity and people's interest in the game.

It's a segment of data but as you say doesn't tell the whole story. Forums aren't always the best place for specific conversations. For instance when it comes to in depth class discussions you're far more likely going to see this happen on class Discords because ultimately that's where the top players/theorycrafters are spending their time.

Realistically you need to be drawing from data sources of all Social channels to even begin correctly analysing engagement rates from players. In that regard he's right, making assertions purely off forum activity is idiotic.

[LorDC]

Blizzard actually tried to do "challenging" once, back in the Cata. That certainly didn't end well.

[Softbottom]

What do you mean doing a solo 5 mask vision is not a solo challenge?

Yes, you can do it with more people but for the context of this thread I focused on the solo part. Why is this hard to understand?

The fact that neither you nor OP can even do a solo 5-mask run talks volumes about why there shouldn't be flying or anything locked behind actually challenging content.

I haven't bothered doing a 5 mask because I don't care and can't be bothered. If I don't enjoy the base version of the content why on earth would I bother doing a 5 mask? I did a 2 mask and thought it was just as boring and un-engaging as the first 30 times I did a vision lol. I'm sure if I WANTED to I could but I don't. I've completed difficult content in the past but by choice because I found it engaging. Visions are literally the worst form of content Blizzard has ever released IMO. I'd rather log out than do them which is currently the case as I am unsubbed 3 months into a patch for the first time ever.

[Garymorilix]

I haven't bothered doing a 5 mask because I don't care and can't be bothered. If I don't enjoy the base version of the content why on earth would I bother doing a 5 mask? I did a 2 mask and thought it was just as boring and un-engaging as the first 30 times I did a vision lol. I'm sure if I WANTED to I could but I don't. I've completed difficult content in the past but by choice because I found it engaging. Visions are literally the worst form of content Blizzard has ever released IMO. I'd rather log out than do them which is currently the case as I am unsubbed 3 months into a patch for the first time ever.

Ah yes, the age old argument of "I didn't do it but if I wanted to..."
And also, fuck Blizzard too because you couldn't do the content, how original.

I'll give it to you, it musta took courage to type that out and post it.

[Softbottom]

Ah yes, the age old argument of "I didn't do it but if I wanted to..."
And also, fuck Blizzard too because you couldn't do the content, how original.

I'll give it to you, it musta took courage to type that out and post it.

Lol nice one pal. You are so cool I want to be like you. I am done with this convo anyways you are an absolute clown. All of your responses in this thread don't add anything to the conversation and you are clearly just trolling everyone with your responses. Peace.

[Garymorilix]

Lol nice one pal. You are so cool I want to be like you. I am done with this convo anyways you are an absolute clown. All of your responses in this thread don't add anything to the conversation and you are clearly just trolling everyone with your responses. Peace.

First, achieve something before talking about it and you won't find yourself in this situation.

Don't talk about stuff you don't do, makes you look like a hypocrite.
If you wanna advocate for challenging content, good, but then do the challenging content too.
Or yknow, play the game at least.

I don't know what even makes you think you have any kind of authority on anything in this game based on your position.

[Laughingjack]

you may belive whatever you want.

but its a fact - thats why lfr exists - thats why normal/hc dungeons exist

because there is enormous crowd out there for whom anything above WQ / hc dungeons is simply impossible.

visions are kinda bad example for it because most people did them when they were already way overgeared. they are tuned as a weekly source of gear for people who are like 410-415 and should be done at that levels (i mean cloak progress visions 1-15)

I just believe that every single person on this earth is capable of improving. I find it hard to believe that people would just stagnate in something they enjoy enough to pay money to do it.

I just can't believe people don't want to improve.

[Kokolums]

Blizzard has tried to include challenging tasks several times and it causes an eruption of whining to nerf it. For some reason, Blizzard always caves in. Now they try not to add challenging content at all outside of raids.

[Very Tired]

Seems like people like to think of this issue as black and white. It wouldn't be "do mage towers towers to unlock legion flying". If Blizzard did something like that, they would implement a scaling buff mechanic that makes it increasingly easier over time until the point everyone could do it. Just like they've done with HV. I could live with something like that.

[BeepBoo]

I just believe that every single person on this earth is capable of improving. I find it hard to believe that people would just stagnate in something they enjoy enough to pay money to do it.

You're confusing enjoyment and activity with improvement, unfortunately. I'm someone who always wants to be improving, but across all my other sports hobbies, I've come to find there are a lot of people who simply don't have the mental capacity, let alone the drive/dedication to actively improve themselves.

Most people re worker bees that wouldn't be able to problem solve on their own.

That doesn't stop them from enjoying things though. Which is simultaneously unfortunate and fortunate. Unfortunate because companies like blizz want to milk these people and start catering to them. Fortunate because it's easy to be a god among mortals and that always feels good in any fashion to me.

I just can't believe people don't want to improve.

Believe it. They don't want to, don't know how, or "want to" superficially but will never bother putting in the effort. That is the nature of a majority of the human race. Worker bees who have very small capacity for real improvement once they hit real adversity.

[Laughingjack]

You're confusing enjoyment and activity with improvement, unfortunately. I'm someone who always wants to be improving, but across all my other sports hobbies, I've come to find there are a lot of people who simply don't have the mental capacity, let alone the drive/dedication to actively improve themselves.

Most people re worker bees that wouldn't be able to problem solve on their own.

That doesn't stop them from enjoying things though. Which is simultaneously unfortunate and fortunate. Unfortunate because companies like blizz want to milk these people and start catering to them. Fortunate because it's easy to be a god among mortals and that always feels good in any fashion to me.


Believe it. They don't want to, don't know how, or "want to" superficially but will never bother putting in the effort. That is the nature of a majority of the human race. Worker bees who have very small capacity for real improvement once they hit real adversity.

I find this all very depressing.. I can understand complex tasks but even those can be broken into small piece meal problems. Take visions...

If your struggling surely you start to take notice of what is hindering you right? You notice mobs that are more dangerous either from their ability to stun or inflict sanity damage. If you find yourself losing insanity you have to take notice of the potions and learn how to tell what ones will harm you and what ones will help you... None of this is even talking about the optional buffs that greatly increase your output.

There are so many tools eventually your average play has to learn how to use them even if it is just one at a time.

[kamuimac]

I just believe that every single person on this earth is capable of improving. I find it hard to believe that people would just stagnate in something they enjoy enough to pay money to do it.

I just can't believe people don't want to improve.

ofc - but people dont play computer games to improve.

only ones who do that are those who lack something irl - and look for compensation in virtual world.

unless you mean 0,00000001% who make good money on wow - aka streamers / youtubers who stream mythic raids/mythic +

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You're confusing enjoyment and activity with improvement, unfortunately. I'm someone who always wants to be improving, but across all my other sports hobbies, I've come to find there are a lot of people who simply don't have the mental capacity, let alone the drive/dedication to actively improve themselves.

Most people re worker bees that wouldn't be able to problem solve on their own.

That doesn't stop them from enjoying things though. Which is simultaneously unfortunate and fortunate. Unfortunate because companies like blizz want to milk these people and start catering to them. Fortunate because it's easy to be a god among mortals and that always feels good in any fashion to me.


Believe it. They don't want to, don't know how, or "want to" superficially but will never bother putting in the effort. That is the nature of a majority of the human race. Worker bees who have very small capacity for real improvement once they hit real adversity.

oh but they know how to.

they just dont want to because its not fun for them .

the whole popularity of mmorpg as genre was build around the core idea that if you grinded long enough you got so powerfull that everything falls before you

thats basic core concept of mmorpg thats what made classic-wolk era so popular

and then blizzard start to turn wow into arpg where what matters most is skills

and people signed off - because they dont play mmorpgs to show skills.

they play it because they want to grind out nice shiny gear that will allow them to smack dragon on the nose and then he falls over.

thats why classic 16 year old game is more popular then all other current mmorpgs combined (excluding FF 14)

the raid difficulty is a joke , dungeon difficulty is a joke - if you have skills you can clear anything up to AQ in quest greens - and if you get blues/purples - oh boy bosses fall over before you . thats exackly following concept of mmorpgs from that time. and people love it in 2020 - because it makes them feel good when they feel powerfull and dont have to play the abomination child of frogger and dark souls that current retail wow design is.

because mmorpg devs lost their way while catering to loud minority of hardcore players who in reality want to play arpg game in mmorpg world.

[BeepBoo]

ofc - but people dont play computer games to improve.

only ones who do that are those who lack something irl - and look for compensation in virtual world.

Nice generalization there. It also happens to be false. Some people view everything as a challenge; everything is a competition. That's perfectly fine to have that view. I consciously race people in walmart walking through isles. Get on my level. Literally everything is a competition to me.

the whole popularity of mmorpg as genre was build around the core idea that if you grinded long enough you got so powerfull that everything falls before you

Oh really? And you get to that point in the latest tier content? No? You stay relatively the same power EVERY SINGLE PATCH if you're ahead of the curve like any normal player who consumes content at an appreciable rate? Oh. I've felt the same relative power since WOTLK. No more or less powerful. That latest tier boss still takes 5 minutes to kill. Know what has made me feel more powerful, though? Knowing I'm getting better because the bosses I'm beating are harder mechanically. Getting to see my parses grow from blue in early wotlk to orange. My relative power actually going up through improvement of my skill. That's where the real power is (and should remain).

No one gives a FLYING FUCK about oneshotting old-world content or oneshotting 10000 scrub-tier overworld mobs. I'd say the only people that do derive satisfaction from the basic act of completing mind-numbingly boring content and feel good about meaningless power increases are people who are lacking something IRL

thats basic core concept of mmorpg[/B] thats what made classic-wolk era so popular

Nice generalization that is, again, false. This is just your personal feelings showing through where you're trying to justify your opinion as superior by making it appear more factual. Step off.

because mmorpg devs lost their way while catering to loud minority of hardcore players who in reality want to play arpg game in mmorpg world.

lolk. Nice pile of evidence you bring to the table to support your conclusions as well.

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Blizzard has tried to include challenging tasks several times and it causes an eruption of whining to nerf it. For some reason, Blizzard always caves in. Now they try not to add challenging content at all outside of raids.

The issue is they always try to reward it with something more than just a title or an achievement. As someone who completed MTC the first week it was up at severely hampered ilvl and has played all of the "hardest" games (that weren't just monotonous difficulty of bulletsponges and one-shots... games with actual difficulty like dark souls, etc), I would have been completely fine just getting something non-visual in any way for completion. I would have bashed my head against it until I did it, regardless. Did I enjoy flexing my skin on all the plebs? Yes. 100%. Did I enjoy the endless tears on the forum, up till the very final days of if when people STILL couldn't beat it even at 80+ ilvl better? Hell yes. Delicious. But that's not ultimately what drove me to do it. It was internal motivation and a need to prove it to myself.

[kamuimac]

No one gives a FLYING FUCK about oneshotting old-world content or oneshotting 10000 scrub-tier overworld mobs. I'd say the only people that do derive satisfaction from the basic act of completing mind-numbingly boring content and feel good about meaningless power increases are people who are lacking something IRL
.

thats objectively false as there is way more people who never do endgame hardmodes but do transmog runs all the time

also whenever blizzard makes gear squshes people are always pissed of because it slows down their transmog farm.

transmog wins over hardmodes anytime with ease

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Did I enjoy flexing my skin on all the plebs? Yes. 100%. Did I enjoy the endless tears on the forum, up till the very final days of if when people STILL couldn't beat it even at 80+ ilvl better? Hell yes. Delicious. But that's not ultimately what drove me to do it. It was internal motivation and a need to prove it to myself.

whenever i read something like this i always picture the EU - US "i feel bad for you - i dont think about you at all " meme

the irony when people like you spend so much time imagining that others envy yu skills when in reality nobody cares about you in game at all. you are just statistical number for them - and all they care about is pixels preferably obtainable with easy mode

also must have pised you a lot when anyone who tried could clear mage towers when they buffed artifacts all that time you put in wasted becaue people went in there and one shot everything

[BeepBoo]

thats objectively false as there is way more people who never do endgame hardmodes but do transmog runs all the time

Oh heaven forbid their clear times on their faceroll content that offers 0 risk of them actually dying goes from 5 minutes to 10 minutes because they have to press 5 more buttons. THE HORROR! The reason I say no one cares is because it doesn't fucking matter how much you overgear something by. I AFKd for literally 10 minutes getting beat by a mob in NJ when it first released only to come back at 90% hp. The mob had absolutely no threat about it. I would never have died.

Ergo, if it's impossible to fail already, why the fuck do you care about even MORE power? Hitting a mob with 100hp for 1200 is effectively the same as hitting it for 1500. That extra 300 dmg of overkill means NOTHING.

the irony when people like you spend so much time imagining that others envy yu skills when in reality nobody cares about you in game at all.

And all those solo players care about absolutely nobody else, either. It's not just me. However, it's sad that you're clearly incapable of even comprehending the onus or reason I care about performance. I don't give a fuck what other people think.

I care about what I think about myself. If I have statistical evidence that I'm superior, performance wise, or if it's obvious that I'm doing something better than someone, I feel superior. That is the top feeling I have in life. It's what brings me the most amount of joy: knowing I'm better than someone else.

you are just statistical number for them - and all they care about is pixels preferably obtainable with easy mode

Yes yes, weak people incapable of achieving anything just want stuff handed to them so they can live out their fantasies and get instant gratification. We know. Casinos are popular for a reason. That doesn't mean those people should be celebrated or acknowledged.

also must have pised you a lot when anyone who tried could clear mage towers when they buffed artifacts all that time you put in wasted because people went in there and one shot everything

Nope. I have the achievement timestamp. That's all I need to be able to tell who sucked and had to wait for ex mode versus who is actually good. I thrive on the threads of tears where people talk about the "toxic" m+ community trying to weed out the type of people you're on about as being the biggest and most important community in the game. Those people should just stay in their lane and be happy with their monkey content instead of asking for everything to turn into monkey content.

[Omedon]

1. Let's say you want to unlock flight.

Instead of meaningless shit like doing all the quests in new zones and unlocking 6 reputations, why not something like:

-> Complete all the quests in the new zones and complete these aerial challenges on hard difficulty (a race challenge, an aerial combat challenge, etc)

2. Let's say you want to become exalted with a race.

Instead of meaningless shit like doing the same repeatable quests to honored, revered, exalted, why not instead:

-> Complete the introductory quest for this faction, then these other story chains which will explore the story of these factions through quests, dungeons and exploration of lore items in the world, interlaced with personal challenges that require your skill as a solo player to overcome.

3. Let's say you want to level a profession.

Instead of crafting shit items over and over to get some levels, why not instead:

-> Have the option to go around the world to for example fix NPC's sword and armor, or enchant their gear, or do this even for players, giving you a skill level for say every 5 people helped.

I keep seeing this shit argument for the past 15 years about how "players are entitled and want easy rewards and you should be rewarded only for wasting this many hours in game doing shit tasks" to why I always reply: why? Why the fuck should we content ourselves to be masochistic instead of demanding more challenging/mentally stimulating, more interactive and more fun content?

Because time is the one constant everyone can give and, yes, pay for. Ask Wildstar what happens when only the skilled are allowed to feel valued.

Optional difficulties and the secondary trophies they offer are there for you. In the meantime, the main vein of the game is for everyone, and "apply time and win" is the only way to serve them all.

Thank goodness the WoW devs understand that. I haven't "played to be challenged" in about a decade, and I'm still here because they continue to provide a world where I can immerse myself successfully, with or without my friends, on my schedule.

That is why WoW is still here.