The Silver Hand in Orgrimmar

[Lieutenant Commander]

class halls were a mistake.

That's the best feature of BfA, it got rid of the homogenized, multicultural class hubs.

[Syegfryed]

If only the Horde had its own 'paladin' organisations. Could you imagine if it had not one, not two, but three paladin groups of which two are entirely unique to the Horde and have meaning and approaches fitting to their respective races, and one used to be before it was hollowed out to be a Silver Hand pastiche? Luckily, that's not the case, so the only choice is to have the Silver Hand, made to fight orcs in a war with Orgrim Doomhammer be in a city named after him training people from radically different cultures and beliefs into being differently coloured humans.

if we only had more devs who read the game lore instead of just creating new or retconing from the spot, or i dunno creating lore with a bit more coherence

[Aucald]

There's no "etc. etc.", human and dwarf organization doesn't exist anymore.

The Brotherhood of the Light no longer exists? They're still apparently active, and while they work with the Silver Hand and the Argent Crusade they're still very obviously members of their own order.

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I think this is just laziness at this point.

It should be forbidden to put some human aesthetics in Orgrimmar.

The Silver Hand is no longer a Human organization at this point, so I wouldn't really call its aesthetics Human either. No more than the heraldry of the Cenarion Circle is explicitly Night Elven, or the Earthern Ring is Orcish. These groups all cross both racial and factional divides.

[Super Dickmann]

The Silver Hand is no longer a Human organization at this point, so I wouldn't really call its aesthetics Human either. No more than the heraldry of the Cenarion Circle is explicitly Night Elven, or the Earthern Ring is Orcish. These groups all cross both racial and factional divides.

Being neutral doesn't make the original Alliance paladin organisation and its chivalric churchly medieval knight aesthetic stop being such. It just means that others use it too. If I wear a yarmulke it wouldn't suddenly stop being Jewish.

On that note, the Brotherhood of Light is also neutral.

[Lieutenant Commander]

The Brotherhood of the Light no longer exists? They're still apparently active, and while they work with the Silver Hand and the Argent Crusade they're still very obviously members of their own order.

What? Brotherhood of the Light was always explicitly neutral, hell most of their npcs were made to be neutral quest-givers for Naxxramas and later the neutral quest-givers in post-cata EPL. They never ever did anything for the Alliance and use the same symbol as Argent Crusade. The only thing that comes to mind is Elligor preaching to Alliance paladins in Wintergarde Keep, that's literally the only interaction they had specifically with the Alliance.

[Aucald]

Being neutral doesn't make the original Alliance paladin organisation and its chivalric churchly medieval knight aesthetic stop being such. It just means that others use it too. If I wear a yarmulke it wouldn't suddenly stop being Jewish.

On that note, the Brotherhood of Light is also neutral.

What? Brotherhood of the Light was always explicitly neutral, hell most of their npcs were made to be neutral quest-givers for Naxxramas and later the neutral quest-givers in post-cata EPL. They never ever did anything for the Alliance and use the same symbol as Argent Crusade. The only thing that comes to mind is Elligor preaching to Alliance paladins in Wintergarde Keep, that's literally the only interaction they had specifically with the Alliance.

Mostly it's just the device of the order that's seen in any case - the heraldry depicted the actual Silver Hand emblem (closed or opened depending on context). The rest of the aesthetic is just Paladin stuff in general (e.g. Librams and Maces).

The Brotherhood of the Light is neutral when it comes to accepting outside help, but its membership is completely Alliance-centric (all Humans and Dwarves), and it is not taking in new members that we know of. All of the individual Paladin orders are effectively neutral as their concerns go above and beyond faction politics, e.g. service to the Light and the defense of the innocent.

[Lieutenant Commander]

The Brotherhood of the Light is neutral when it comes to accepting outside help, but its membership is completely Alliance-centric (all Humans and Dwarves), and it is not taking in new members that we know of.

Doesn't make it human and dwarven paladin organization. You know what that organization was? The Silver Hand. It's stated in the first class quest you ever do as a paladin in classic.

All of the individual Paladin orders are effectively neutral as their concerns go above and beyond faction politics, e.g. service to the Light and the defense of the innocent.

Someone tell that to Liadrin, then.

[Aucald]

Doesn't make it human and dwarven paladin organization. You know what that organization was? The Silver Hand. It's stated in the first class quest you ever do as a paladin in classic.

That was true until Legion, when the Silver Hand basically became the device of the Paladin Order Hall, to which all the other Paladin orders essentially merged. The Silver Hand was basically also rendered defunct in the Third War, when Arthas disbanded it and most of its members died fighting the Scourge. It was rendered more or less a legacy until Legion revived it.

Someone tell that to Liadrin, then.

Alliance characters work with her and her Blood Knights during the events of Talador in WoD - making them more or less neutral as well.

[Super Dickmann]

Mostly it's just the device of the order that's seen in any case - the heraldry depicted the actual Silver Hand emblem (closed or opened depending on context). The rest of the aesthetic is just Paladin stuff in general (e.g. Librams and Maces).

Would you find the design of the shields, maces etc. more fitting in Stormwind or in Mulgore? Or perhaps in Zandalar? The answer is blindingly obvious.

The Brotherhood of the Light is neutral when it comes to accepting outside help, but its membership is completely Alliance-centric (all Humans and Dwarves), and it is not taking in new members that we know of. All of the individual Paladin orders are effectively neutral as their concerns go above and beyond faction politics, e.g. service to the Light and the defense of the innocent.

The only thing true is that the Brotherhood of the Light is indeed based on Alliance races. That doesn't however make it an Alliance organisation. Anyone can experience their content, and thus the depth that they have in regards to being a middleground between the Argents and the Scarlet Crusade, and more no holds barred approach doesn't inform Alliance paladin characterization. The bit about the individual paladin organisations though is completely false - that's just what the nu-Silver Hand is, the Silver Hand as initially made is blatantly partisan and tied to a specific race, group and interpretation of the faith - those being the Alliance of Lordaeron, humanity, the Church of the Holy Light and the three virtues of that church. It was made to fight the orcish Horde and one its most memorable stories pertains to that dynamic and how it clashes with the more generic goodness you claim is at their core - i.e the conflict between Uther and Tirion in Blood and Honor. The Sunwalkers aren't even paladins - they are An'she worshippers who channel the power of the sun and have a druidic/shamnistic vibe to them, tied explicitly in an answer to an aspect of the tauren faith. The Zandalari prelates are committed to the Zandalari King, to a specific loa, and are servants of the Zandalari Empire. We see them in a police role and as enforcers of the primacy of the Zandalari culture and monarchy. Even the post-TBC Blood Knights, completely blandified as they are, are still foremost servants of the state hence why they're seen waging war alongside the Horde against the Alliance in BFA.

[Andonais]

It blizzard not caring and just placing random paladin assest

[Zuben]

I don't care what justification it's gotten for itself during the events of Legion and BFA, I absolutely hate that it's there instead of the Blood Knights.

[Lieutenant Commander]

That was true until Legion, when the Silver Hand basically became the device of the Paladin Order Hall, to which all the other Paladin orders essentially merged.

Yeah, that's what I have been saying, Blizzard has taken another Alliance thing and made it neutral, at least we are in agreement.

The Silver Hand was basically also rendered defunct in the Third War, when Arthas disbanded it and most of its members died fighting the Scourge. It was rendered more or less a legacy until Legion revived it.

Arthas, a prince of Lordaeron had no power in Stormwind, from where your human character comes, He might have disbanded the Lordaeronian chapter, but Stormwind one went on. Here's the quest from classic: https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=31...ecrated-letter - read the progress part.

Alliance characters work with her and her Blood Knights during the events of Talador in WoD - making them more or less neutral as well.

Yeah, that time when she recruited Nightborne into the horde was super neutral too.

[Aucald]

Would you find the design of the shields, maces etc. more fitting in Stormwind or in Mulgore? Or perhaps in Zandalar? The answer is blindingly obvious.

Since all Paladins basically make use of shields, maces, and librams I'd say they're pretty much fitting anywhere Paladins are? Paladin tier armor is also cross-factional and always has been (at least since the Horde has had Paladins to speak of). The same is true of the other classes as well.

The only thing true is that the Brotherhood of the Light is indeed based on Alliance races. That doesn't however make it an Alliance organisation. Anyone can experience their content, and thus the depth that they have in regards to being a middleground between the Argents and the Scarlet Crusade, and more no holds barred approach doesn't inform Alliance paladin characterization. The bit about the individual paladin organisations though is completely false - that's just what the nu-Silver Hand is, the Silver Hand as initially made is blatantly partisan and tied to a specific race, group and interpretation of the faith - those being the Alliance of Lordaeron, humanity, the Church of the Holy Light and the three virtues of that church. It was made to fight the orcish Horde and one its most memorable stories pertains to that dynamic and how it clashes with the more generic goodness you claim is at their core - i.e the conflict between Uther and Tirion in Blood and Honor. The Sunwalkers aren't even paladins - they are An'she worshippers who channel the power of the sun and have a druidic/shamnistic vibe to them, tied explicitly in an answer to an aspect of the tauren faith. The Zandalari prelates are committed to the Zandalari King, to a specific loa, and are servants of the Zandalari Empire. We see them in a police role and as enforcers of the primacy of the Zandalari culture and monarchy. Even the post-TBC Blood Knights, completely blandified as they are, are still foremost servants of the state hence why they're seen waging war alongside the Horde against the Alliance in BFA.

I never called it an Alliance organization, just that it's membership is Alliance-centric. An Alliance organization would be hostile to the Horde (e.g. SI: 7), and the Brotherhood isn't really that despite a lot of its members not being so welcoming to the Horde. Both the Sunwalkers and Zandalari Prelates field Paladins, as well; you can quibble about the essence of their religion or organization, but you can't really deny that the results are functioning Paladin classes who use Paladin abilities. The Silver Hand no longer has a monopoly on what it is to be a Paladin, and haven't since the advent of the Blood Knights. There are a lot of ways to be a Paladin.

[elbleuet]

The Brotherhood of the Light no longer exists? They're still apparently active, and while they work with the Silver Hand and the Argent Crusade they're still very obviously members of their own order.

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The Silver Hand is no longer a Human organization at this point

This was bad. This is even worse with Turalyon's return.

so I wouldn't really call its aesthetics Human either.

So that's orcish aesthetic ?

[MeTaL GuArD]

Liadrin shouldn't have made an appearance in Stromgarde. Ever since the turn in Blood Knight philosophy, she's been the neutral "greater good" paladin of the Horde. It'd have been completely fine, and probably more fun, if they had Sunwalker Dezco there, as he has no qualms whatsoever about fighting the Alliance.

[Aucald]

Yeah, that's what I have been saying, Blizzard has taken another Alliance thing and made it neutral, at least we are in agreement.

I would say more that the various Paladin groups of Azeroth opted to resurrect the legacy of the long-vanquished Silver Hand as the name for their Order Hall. I don't really blame Blizzard for that movement in the story.

Arthas, a prince of Lordaeron had no power in Stormwind, from where your human character comes, He might have disbanded the Lordaeronian chapter, but Stormwind one went on. Here's the quest from classic: https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=31...ecrated-letter - read the progress part.

There's no real "chapter" of Silver Hand Paladins even in Classic - the moniker is still used as the legacy, sure; but beyond that the Silver Hand as an organization didn't really exist and Classic Paladins more of less served the Church of the Light (a majority Priestly order in Stormwind).

Yeah, that time when she recruited Nightborne into the horde was super neutral too.

That puts a bit too much onus on Liadrin - both Liadrin and Tyrande pitched membership to the originally neutral Nightfallen resistance. I would blame Tyrande more for giving Thalyssra and the Nightborne the cold shoulder than I would Liadrin for being welcoming and understanding. Thalyssra made the ultimate decision, though.

[Super Dickmann]

Since all Paladins basically make use of shields, maces, and librams I'd say they're pretty much fitting anywhere Paladins are? Paladin tier armor is also cross-factional and always has been (at least since the Horde has had Paladins to speak of). The same is true of the other classes as well.

Even as a bit of pedantry this is wrong because back when the class was introduced Horde-side Paladins and Blood Knights had different traditional weapons, the former using maces and the latter preferring the spear, which still carries over to their visual design now when the two are virtually identical ethos-wise. But even disregarding that, no one, you included, believes that a troll mace would be just as fitting in Stormwind as it would be in Zandalar. The same extends to human paladin iconography in Orgrimmar.

I never called it an Alliance organization, just that it's membership is Alliance-centric. An Alliance organization would be hostile to the Horde (e.g. SI: 7), and the Brotherhood isn't really that despite a lot of its members not being so welcoming to the Horde. Both the Sunwalkers and Zandalari Prelates field Paladins, as well; you can quibble about the essence of their religion or organization, but you can't really deny that the results are functioning Paladin classes who use Paladin abilities. The Silver Hand no longer has a monopoly on what it is to be a Paladin, and haven't since the advent of the Blood Knights. There are a lot of ways to be a Paladin.

These aren't minor quibbles, these are fundamental elements of the conceit of the class being playable. A Prelate or Sunwalker uses the same skills but the lore backing them is different, to the point where neither follows the same faith as the paladins and their loyalty and modus operandi is different. Not to mention that your last statement explicitly contradicts the earlier one, since the same iconography, same ethos and same umbrella organisation explicitly makes there be only one way to be a paladin. That's why both Alliance and Horde posters are criticizing it.

[Aucald]

This was bad. This is even worse with Turalyon's return.

No idea what Turalyon thinks of it, to be honest - but the decision was made without his input and before he was recovered at Argus. I suppose he just sort of has to live with it, assuming he cares overly.

So that's orcish aesthetic ?

It's neither, really. Pretty much neutral, the same as any of the other Order Halls.

[Lieutenant Commander]

I would say more that the various Paladin groups of Azeroth opted to resurrect the legacy of the long-vanquished Silver Hand as the name for their Order Hall. I don't really blame Blizzard for that movement in the story.

'Kay, then make a new organization for humans and dwarves, we have none.

There's no real "chapter" of Silver Hand Paladins even in Classic - the moniker is still used as the legacy, sure; but beyond that the Silver Hand as an organization didn't really exist and Classic Paladins more of less served the Church of the Light (a majority Priestly order in Stormwind).

So even though several quests state you are a member, you aren't really a member because Blizzard said so 12 years later. Got it.

That puts a bit too much onus on Liadrin - both Liadrin and Tyrande pitched membership to the originally neutral Nightfallen resistance. I would blame Tyrande more for giving Thalyssra and the Nightborne the cold shoulder than I would Liadrin for being welcoming and understanding. Thalyssra made the ultimate decision, though.

Yeah, that hiding in the trees comment was fully fueled by being welcoming and understanding.

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No idea what Turalyon thinks of it, to be honest - but the decision was made without his input and before he was recovered at Argus. I suppose he just sort of has to live with it, assuming he cares overly.

He's fighting in Stromgarde flying the flag of the Silver Hand against the Horde. You know, that Alliance paladin organization. https://gamepedia.cursecdn.com/wowpe...193bcf4312d736

[Super Dickmann]

He's fighting in Stromgarde flying the flag of the Silver Hand against the Horde. You know, that Alliance paladin organization. https://gamepedia.cursecdn.com/wowpe...193bcf4312d736

Stop, you're breaking the conditioning.

Quick visual test: Which fits better with the background and location?
https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/scree...mal/929990.jpg - Horde
https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/scree...mal/929968.jpg - Alliance

Another one - which fits the Horde better:
https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/scree...mal/929989.jpg - Warrior
https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/scree...mal/929990.jpg - Paladin