To whom who agreed that accessibility was healthy for WoW

[Nobleshield]

People need to find their own communities with people of a similiar mindset, the game cannot do that for them.

Legit question then, how come other games like FFXIV can have group finders where this DOESN'T happen? WoW seems to be the exception now where groups are intrinsically toxic because you mix playstyles. It might just be longevity but I'm not sure.

[Kolvarg]

Yeah, like the small sample size that says wow is less social, that wow doesn't incentivize socialization. I agree completely.

Thankfully I'm not basing my opinion on that small sample size.

You're objective thoughts are not objective, they are subjective. Continuing to think otherwise is the major hole in your logic.

But you are, quite clearly, not discussing my opinion. You are wanting to discuss your own subjective opinion; in which case you did not need to quote me.

Wait... Are you... ObFuScAtInG!?

It is what it is man. If you didn't want to discuss it you shouldn't have replied to me from the start. And if you don't want people to reply, maybe start a blog instead of posting on a discussion forum.

[Belloc]

I'll never understand why people think that WoW has lost its social aspect. One of my best friends plays D&D with his guildies every week. That guild also readily welcomes pug players into their guild when they show that they get along well enough. Guilds are still around and players are still joining them. WoW communities are still thriving on here, on Reddit, on Discord and on numerous other forums.

WoW has always had a wealth of anti/asocial players. Those players are the ones that benefit from the elements of this game that do not require social interactions. The rest of the players are more than capable of finding guilds and other communities to join and they do so every day.

WoW's social aspect has not suffered in the slightest. It has, in fact, thrived. The only difference between Vanilla and now is that players don't have to be social to enjoy the game and that's a good thing.

[Kralljin]

Legit question then, how come other games like FFXIV can have group finders where this DOESN'T happen? WoW seems to be the exception now where groups are intrinsically toxic because you mix playstyles. It might just be longevity but I'm not sure.

Your assumption is rather broad to say that is actual a common occurrence in WoW while also being utterly nonexistant in FFXIV.

[erifwodahs]

WoW's social aspect has not suffered in the slightest. It has, in fact, thrived. The only difference between Vanilla and now is that players don't have to be social to enjoy the game and that's a good thing.

This. Social players will be social as long as they don't make it more efficient to run solo devs won't break it.

[kenn9530]

snip

Main reason the subs are declining is not accessability its the age of the game and it has not really changed at all since release, players are mostly bored with doing the exact same thing every expansion not because you can get all the epics, gear does not make you a better player so its irrelevant if you have full BiS if your unable to clear current mythic raid content.

Game is old and does not evolve so players get bored.

You can be as social as you want in your guild, and spamming trade chat looking for groups 24/7 is nothing to do with the social aspect of the game.

[RoKPaNda]

I'll never understand why people think that WoW has lost its social aspect. One of my best friends plays D&D with his guildies every week. That guild also readily welcomes pug players into their guild when they show that they get along well enough. Guilds are still around and players are still joining them. WoW communities are still thriving on here, on Reddit, on Discord and on numerous other forums.

WoW has always had a wealth of anti/asocial players. Those players are the ones that benefit from the elements of this game that do not require social interactions. The rest of the players are more than capable of finding guilds and other communities to join and they do so every day.

WoW's social aspect has not suffered in the slightest. It has, in fact, thrived. The only difference between Vanilla and now is that players don't have to be social to enjoy the game and that's a good thing.

Because their own personal experience sucks so they think it's like that for everyone. If you have to FORCE social and community features on people then your game doesn't have a healthy community.

Even in Classic now players find ways around being social. Why? Because a lot of players don't want to be social. They just want to play the game, do the content they like, and not worry about the logistics of being social. From the second week or so of Classic, outside of my guild, the only social interaction I had with other players was addons whispering me to tank / heal dungeons. Classic has a thriving pug raid scene which again doesn't require any more social interaction than the modern group finder. You respond to people looking for more for a raid, you get an invite, social interaction done.

If you want to be social, find a guild that is social. Otherwise you're SOL because the social features that people are lamenting the loss of have been gone for over a decade. Even back in BC where people talk about how "hard" (lol wait until they release BC servers) the Heroic dungeons were you didn't have to be social once you got into the groups. Just spam for groups or respond to someone else spamming for groups, get invited, bam, social interaction done.

- - - Updated - - -

Your assumption is rather broad to say that is actual a common occurrence in WoW while also being utterly nonexistant in FFXIV.

That person is right though, FFXIV groups don't act like assholes like WoW groups. If you want to learn how to do another role, the groups in FFXIV will give you tips, if you've never done a dungeon/raid before people will explain the mechanics. Wow has a much more toxic community and has for a long time. I can remember back in actual Vanilla WoW people would be harsh to new players in dungeons. I've yet to see that attitude in FFXIV.

[Kralljin]

That person is right though, FFXIV groups don't act like assholes like WoW groups. If you want to learn how to do another role, the groups in FFXIV will give you tips, if you've never done a dungeon/raid before people will explain the mechanics. Wow has a much more toxic community and has for a long time. I can remember back in actual Vanilla WoW people would be harsh to new players in dungeons. I've yet to see that attitude in FFXIV.

Again, that's just anecdotal.

[TheRevenantHero]

Again, that's just anecdotal.

Not really. Look at these forums or the official WoW forums. The community is filled to the brim with toxic human beings and it has contributed to a lot of players doing everything they can to avoid socializing. He's right about FF14 having players with better attitudes as well. WoW seems to be the only MMO where people will throw you out of a group because you made a negative comment about a tank getting a group wiped or being thrown out of a group as a tank that doesn't pull fast enough.

[Kralljin]

Not really. Look at these forums or the official WoW forums.

What do people always tell you about forums?
They're a minority.

Gauging the community by its forums is pretty bad, because forums are generally filled with people that want to discuss / argue over a certain problem, not to express their continued love for the game and its community.

[TheRevenantHero]

What do people always tell you about forums?
They're a minority.

Gauging the community by its forums is pretty bad, because forums are generally filled with people that want to discuss / argue over a certain problem, not to express their continued love for the game and its community.

you completely disregarded the rest of my argument which tells me you know I'm right but you'd rather act like I'm not correct since that would destroy your point.

[Kralljin]

you completely disregarded the rest of my argument which tells me you know I'm right but you'd rather act like I'm not correct since that would destroy your point.

No, it's just an extremely subjective topic primarily based on personal experience and hearsay.
There is no parameter that measures "toxicity" within a forum, let alone within the game.

[TheRevenantHero]

No, it's just an extremely subjective topic primarily based on personal experience and hearsay.
There is no parameter that measures "toxicity" within a forum, let alone within the game.

That is by far one of the most ignorant things I've ever seen. How much toxicity is based 100% on experiences and being on the outside looking in. When enough people are all saying the same thing, it's no longer anecdotal. The only reason anyone would say THAT is anecdotal still is just someone who outright refuses to admit they're wrong about a subject. Or it's because THEY are part of that toxicity and by acknowledging how bad the toxicity is, they have to admit they're a shitty person.

[Kralljin]

When enough people are all saying the same thing, it's no longer anecdotal.

And this your typical conformation bias.
The only people that have a fraction of insight into this subject is Blizzard and they would have acted a long time ago if it was a serious problem to retain new players.
Let me remind that others have already claimed that even during Vanilla (=15 years ago) the community was already super "toxic".

The only thing that they did was stop putting more hardcore people into more casual content for some arbitrary currency such as valor points and badges.
You know, the one thing i said was a massive source of drama.

The only reason anyone would say THAT is anecdotal still is just someone who outright refuses to admit they're wrong about a subject.

No, it's the reality of it.
You can't measure the toxicity of a community.

And if people use "forums" as evidence, then i am going to remind you that the forums aren't necessarily representative of the community at large.
And you can go on tell me how "wrong" i am, but that's just denial on your part.

[Nachturnal]

And this your typical conformation bias.
The only people that have a fraction of insight into this subject is Blizzard and they would have acted a long time ago if was a serious problem to retain new players.
Let me remind that others have already claimed that even during Vanilla (=15 years ago) the community was already super "toxic".

The only thing that they did was stop putting more hardcore people into more casual content for some arbitrary currency such as valor points and badges.
You know, the one thing i said was a massive source of drama.

No, it's the reality of it.
You can't measure the toxicity of a community.

And if people use "forums" as evidence, then i am going to remind you that the forums aren't necessarily representative of the community at large.
And you can go on tell me how "wrong" i am, but that's just denial on your part.

Completely agree with your points. I play both FFXIV and WoW and although I can say that I have had a pleasant community experience in Final Fantasy, I wouldn't outright generalize the communities in either game based on my own anecdotal experience. Even worse, to make the point that "when enough people are saying the same thing, the more it becomes less anecdotal". That's some ass backwards logic. That's the, "well my echo chamber says x, so obviously it makes y true", logic.

Hell, in the last month of WoW, all I've met are wonderful players, super helpful in getting me up to speed in Mythic+, letting me tag along into content I've not done before. So based on my experience, the WoW community is clearly angelic.

Also, this is a point that has been repeated so many times in any forums dedicated to a specific hobby/community: forums are a tiny fraction of that group. Using a forum's "vibe" to make a point is just disingenuous.

[Lei]

Again, you are missing the point. The point is people claimed this happened all time and have been bitching it doesn't happen any more. That is the point. There have been countless post about this very subject when ever socializing comes up. It doesn't matter if you don't do it or don't think it is the right place to do it. Other's did and say LFD/LFG ruined that portion of socializing for them.

I just argue that it didn't happen as often as people like to remember unless they only rand in guild groups.

- - - Updated - - -



Exactly. People were a mistake.

You are right. I participated plenty of those threads.


What I think is that you kinda have to find your own way to socialize when you feel like.
Like when you join to a fishing raid and people start bantering because they get so bored. You don't sit around in a fishing raid for 2-3 hours and don't say anything. well maybe if you have anxiety then yes, but others will start to talk, and you can feel included. Even just being there and listening is being involved in a way.
But these activities (Fabius farm, achieve hunters rare elite farm raids at the start of 8.2) have no recipe. It just happens.
Like how at the start raiders were farming Apexis at the Pit in Gorgrond.
Like how I used to make a raid every night for weeks when I fished for Pond Nettle and my raid was full all the time because people were bored to fish alone. And we talked.
But like I said you can't force this.

[Big Thanks]

I wanted to share my most recent MMO experience, as an example to prove "Just because is a MMO it doesnt mean is social design"

Im playing Blade & Soul at the moment (MMORPG)
And it has the most anti social leveling experience design ive ever...experienced.

For context
You know when people on MMO-C want to say a quest is easy they mostly say "Is a kill 10 boars quest"

Well...in B&S i have done probably 100 quests up to level 37 and every single one of them was EASIER than a "kill 10 boars quests"
Every...single...one...of...them
AND
This is the optimal way to level up (only following up the main story quest in a straight line)
AND
Mobs are never remotely challenging

After we combine all of this pieces of game design...we create the EXODIA of a anti-social design leveling experience.

-----

So today i decided to start a conversation with a random person while leveling and added him to my friend list
He was pretty friendly and told me he would wait for me to catch up to his main story quest.
We did a couple Main Story quests in sync (remember, every single one of them easier than killing 10 boars) unril he said:
"This is boring as hell, im off"

The fun fact is that we will no longer be able to quest rogether...because tomorrow we will most certainly be on different parts of the main story quest.

------

Now...
After reading this, can you tell me with a straight face this leveling experience is not anti-social by design?

[Shiza]

I wanted to share my most recent MMO experience, as an example to prove "Just because is a MMO it doesnt mean is social design"

Im playing Blade & Soul at the moment (MMORPG)
And it has the most anti social leveling experience design ive ever...experienced.

For context
You know when people on MMO-C want to say a quest is easy they mostly say "Is a kill 10 boars quest"

Well...in B&S i have done probably 100 quests up to level 37 and every single one of them was EASIER than a "kill 10 boars quests"
Every...single...one...of...them
AND
This is the optimal way to level up (only following up the main story quest in a straight line)
AND
Mobs are never remotely challenging

After we combine all of this pieces of game design...we create the EXODIA of a anti-social design leveling experience.

-----

So today i decided to start a conversation with a random person while leveling and added him to my friend list
He was pretty friendly and told me he would wait for me to catch up to his main story quest.
We did a couple Main Story quests in sync (remember, every single one of them easier than killing 10 boars) unril he said:
"This is boring as hell, im off"

The fun fact is that we will no longer be able to quest rogether...because tomorrow we will most certainly be on different parts of the main story quest.

------

Now...
After reading this, can you tell me with a straight face this leveling experience is not anti-social by design?

All good leveling is anti-social by design because it should be designed to reach max level comfortably solo. People always only level with groups when it is their friends or guildies.

[Big Thanks]

All good leveling is anti-social by design because it should be designed to reach max level comfortably solo. People always only level with groups when it is their friends or guildies.

This one goes as far as making it impossible to group up with friends because we are in different parts of the main story.
Sorry, but this is the exodia of anti social design.
When mixed with the fact that every quest is easier and requires to kill less mobs than a "kill 10 boar quest" from wow (O_O)

[nekobaka]

Legit question then, how come other games like FFXIV can have group finders where this DOESN'T happen? WoW seems to be the exception now where groups are intrinsically toxic because you mix playstyles. It might just be longevity but I'm not sure.

Multiple factors from being a game with a different target audience from WoW and also not having caved to that go go go STFU or I will kick you for telling me WTF to do audience. Not that WoW has always had that audience while now it is stuck with it and the mentality. There is no going back for now at least.

Personally FFXIV is not my style while having heard feedback from many I have played long term across many games the general sentiment has been shared. Sure one can find good helpful people in WoW and I have at times with random queue activities. Overall though I have found the behavior to become quite sour compared to other games I play and how it was when the feature was first implemented. Even the PuG community is quite touchy compared to other games in my experience and in early WoW experience.