Shadowlands Covenants - Making the choice. Is it really as bad as people think?

[Laughingjack]

But you and the entire min max community sound like Gul Dan when he says "everything"
You want access to EVERY single customization option in the game in every situation.
Read that again and please tell me how it doesnt sound "bad".

First of all, what you want is NOT "gameplay customization"
What you want is min maxing

Second of all, you are preventing THE ENTIRE GAME from having RPG Gameplay Customization...just to accommodate your special needs.

Blizzard: Hey guys, we want to fill the game with RPG customziation. What do you think?
You: No, me and my community needs access to ALL the options.

Read that again...and tell me if it doesnt sound crazy

If the game wasn't built around it I would grudgingly agree. It however just isn't... a lot of fights without waiting for nerfs or massively outgearing them require strict toolsets to complete. Some go so far as to need specific class stacking rather then merely optimal talents.

If they disabled these systems outside of raids,dungeons,and rated pvp they could do anything and everything with it and I wouldn't care.

[Big Thanks]

If the game wasn't built around it I would grudgingly agree. It however just isn't... a lot of fights without waiting for nerfs or massively outgearing them require strict toolsets to complete. Some go so far as to need specific class stacking rather then merely optimal talents.

If they disabled these systems outside of raids,dungeons,and rated pvp they could do anything and everything with it and I wouldn't care.

Thats the same thing as saying "i dont want any of this crap in my game"

Look...i will also get punished by the "hard lock" of the customization options because im a player who wants to TRY (big difference), TRY everything.
But at least someone who only wants to try everything is not demanding to officially kill the entire "gameplay customization" concept and eradicate it :S

[Laughingjack]

Thats the same thing as saying "i dont want any of this crap in my game"

Look...i will also get punished by the "hard lock" of the customization options because im a player who wants to TRY (big difference), TRY everything.
But at least someone who only wants to try everything is not demanding to officially kill the entire "gameplay customization" concept and irradicate it :S

What do you want me to say?

I don't think its going to go over well in general but I can see where it is going to cause the most issues. I am not a customization guy. I would rather there not even be talent trees if im brutally honest. I don't get why people don't seem to want identical stats for pvp rather then gear.

I don't really get the drive to be different in terms of abilities rather then simply cosmetics alone. I doubt you will get me to see the middle ground here as I don't understand any of the draws of the other side only the negatives.

Hell whole nine yards I kind of wish they would remove racials too... it killed the alliance raiding scene for years just to show how fine balance is,

[Big Thanks]

What do you want me to say?

I don't think its going to go over well in general but I can see where it is going to cause the most issues. I am not a customization guy. I would rather there not even be talent trees if im brutally honest. I don't get why people don't seem to want identical stats for pvp rather then gear.

I don't really get the drive to be different in terms of abilities rather then simply cosmetics alone. I doubt you will get me to see the middle ground here as I don't understand any of the draws of the other side only the negatives.

But thats the funny thing...there is no "middle ground" to what you are asking.

You are demanding for every single customization option to be accessible in every situation.
This needs the entire game to be designed around you.

[Laughingjack]

But thats the funny thing...there is no "middle ground" to what you are asking.

You are demanding for every single customization option to be accessible in every situation.
This needs the entire game to be designed around you.

I would argue for the lion's share of the game it has been to the point that taking that away is a drastic change in design that only appeared recently and only in minor ways. Lets be frank beyond racials has there ever been a change like this in the past 15 years of the game?

[qwerty123456]

But thats the funny thing...there is no "middle ground" to what you are asking.

You are demanding for every single customization option to be accessible in every situation.
This needs the entire game to be designed around you.

Whats funny is these people that "need" the instant switch are basically admitting that they can only keep up with op stuff that isn't balanced properly. If Blizzard actually had perfect balance they would then find themselves needing to drop down to an easier mode. And you can also bet they would soon then be demanding nerf the stuff the no longer can do.

[Big Thanks]

I would argue for the lion's share of the game it has been to the point that taking that away is a drastic change in design that only appeared recently and only in minor ways. Lets be frank beyond racials has there ever been a change like this in the past 15 years of the game?

When did this easy changeable thing to min max started?

First baby steps started in Wrath.
It went full force only in MoP.

It was not 15 years.

If we kept going in this direction...RPG customization would be dead.

[Laughingjack]

When did this easy changeable thing to min max started?

First baby steps started in Wrath.
It went full force only in MoP.

It was not 15 years.

If we kept going in this direction...RPG customization would be dead.

I mean it didn't start in tbc because no one used anything but one talent tree for each spec... You could spec differently but it was absurdly rare to see.

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Whats funny is these people that "need" the instant switch are basically admitting that they can only keep up with op stuff that isn't balanced properly. If Blizzard actually had perfect balance they would then find themselves needing to drop down to an easier mode. And you can also bet they would soon then be demanding nerf the stuff the no longer can do.

I want to say that is pretty poor logic but I feel like using the word logic is a bit to flattering for it.

[qwerty123456]

I want to say that is pretty poor logic but I feel like using the word logic is a bit to flattering for it.

If you claim an op ability and a normal one is the only difference from you being able to do mythic then clearly your skill with everything balanced would not be up to par for actual mythic raiding.

[Laughingjack]

If you claim an op ability and a normal one is the only difference from you being able to do mythic then clearly your skill with everything balanced would not be up to par for actual mythic raiding.

I mean there are aoe abilities,single target abilities, burst abilities, and sustain abilities, among a host of others. It isn't about a op ability (usually) but what each fight calls for.

[arkanon]

If you claim an op ability and a normal one is the only difference from you being able to do mythic then clearly your skill with everything balanced would not be up to par for actual mythic raiding.

This is the most pure strawman I have seen in a long time. No one is saying "I need overpowered abilities or I cannot kill raid bosses". Your entire argument is one huge fallacy.

You need to stop, it's honestly painful to read.

[qwerty123456]

I mean there are aoe abilities,single target abilities, burst abilities, and sustain abilities, among a host of others. It isn't about a op ability (usually) but what each fight calls for.

And yet Blizzard doesn't balance around needing only the 5 best dps, heal, tank specs and using only them in a raid. If you can't handle X because you need op instead of mediocre then clearly you are playing out of your league.

This is the most pure strawman I have seen in a long time. No one is saying "I need overpowered abilities or I cannot kill raid bosses". Your entire argument is one huge fallacy.

You need to stop, it's honestly painful to read.

Of course they are thats exactly what they are saying. No one is worried about covenant abilities so they will be able to use the garbage ones at any time. They wanna be op in every situation. Which is why everyone was crying about skills possibly getting nerfed or buffed they weren't complaining about not needing another aoe in arena but needing it for a raid.

[Laughingjack]

And yet Blizzard doesn't balance around needing only the 5 best dps, heal, tank specs and using only them in a raid. If you can't handle X because you need op instead of mediocre then clearly you are playing out of your league.



Of course they are thats exactly what they are saying. No one is worried about covenant abilities so they will be able to use the garbage ones at any time. They wanna be op in every situation.

When you say it doesn't balance what do you mean by that... do you mean the balance during live tuning, the balance of the first few kills, or do you mean the balance at the end of a tier?

[qwerty123456]

When you say it doesn't balance what do you mean by that... do you mean the balance during live tuning, the balance of the first few kills, or do you mean the balance at the end of a tier?

All of it. But I mostly mean when they design encounters and beta testing.

[Advent]

Can't you just stay out of end game guilds then? It seems like you weirdly want what their community is in terms of size and stability while not wanting any of the actual people within that community.

I never had a problem finding a tight knit community in wow but its is a community built on common goals be it selling carries or pushing to complete the tier. I have to image there exists other communities for players who just want to take things slow. If there isn't harming the high end community won't bring that community into existence.

Of course I can, and I do. The problem I have stated before is when what they want messes with what it appears many people are already fine with. Often because they cannot control themselves, and want the game to bend to them. Just take the game as it is, or don't, because that's often what I imagine most of us already do.

[Laughingjack]

All of it. But I mostly mean when they design encounters and beta testing.

Those suffer from heavy class stacking though... your pointing out the current problems that will be magnified by this system. Unless they just tone down mythic's difficulty and im torn on if that would be a good thing or not.

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Of course I can, and I do. The problem I have stated before is when what they want messes with what it appears many people are already fine with. Often because they cannot control themselves, and want the game to bend to them. Just take the game as it is, or don't, because that's often what I imagine most of us already do.

I can't say I understand your argument and it doesn't really make sense either. Their issue with it is based on how badly its going to effect game play and balance. It is going to effect everyone... in a negative way. I don't really know what it is you want.

[Advent]

Those suffer from heavy class stacking though... your pointing out the current problems that will be magnified by this system. Unless they just tone down mythic's difficulty and im torn on if that would be a good thing or not.

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I can't say I understand your argument and it doesn't really make sense either. Their issue with it is based on how badly its going to effect game play and balance. It is going to effect everyone... in a negative way. I don't really know what it is you want.

I'm pretty sure it was very clear what I want, but maybe it was spread out and I didn't articulate it well in one single post. I want this choice between covenants to remain. I don't care about standing above the crowd based on difficult accomplishments. I want to stand with the crowd, and be different based on our gameplay choices. Moreover, I don't want the choice to be superficial because then it's irrelevant; as irrelevant as the choice of what transmog to wear on what day. We used to be able to differentiate ourselves from one another based on the old talent trees but those are gone. I understand why they're gone, because they were not very scalable (Their words, not mine. And I'm paraphrasing). Standing apart only due to how good I am at the game is meaningless to me because that type of accomplishment only attracts the type of players that I find unwelcoming to new people, and I don't mean only new players.

I'm glad it will affect everyone on every level. Things like that give all of us some sort of common ground, but only if the decision is somewhat permanent. The moment they become easily interchangeable the expectation shifts for everyone to swap when needed, which means that the choice becomes a non-choice. The game community as a whole dictates your options. The harder it is to change, the less likely people are to expect you to be optimal all of the time, and we can start differentiating ourselves from one another without the malice and ill-intent of a wholly competitive atmosphere. I don't want to just be part of a game that is okay with mediocrity for the sake of avoiding an entire section of the players, I'm not an advocate for exclusion. It hasn't gotten me anywhere and has kept players too isolated. I want us to have common ground to discuss and appreciate a system that affects us all at every level. But that only works if people are willing to let it be what it is, and not change it because they're only focused on one part of the game.

[Laughingjack]

I'm pretty sure it was very clear what I want, but maybe it was spread out and I didn't articulate it well in one single post. I want this choice between covenants to remain. I don't care about standing above the crowd based on difficult accomplishments. I want to stand with the crowd, and be different based on our gameplay choices. Moreover, I don't want the choice to be superficial because then it's irrelevant; as irrelevant as the choice of what transmog to wear on what day. We used to be able to differentiate ourselves from one another based on the old talent trees but those are gone. I understand why they're gone, because they were not very scalable (Their words, not mine. And I'm paraphrasing). Standing apart only due to how good I am at the game is meaningless to me because that type of accomplishment only attracts the type of players that I find unwelcoming to new people, and I don't mean only new players.

I'm glad it will affect everyone on every level. Things like that give all of us some sort of common ground, but only if the decision is somewhat permanent. The moment they become easily interchangeable the expectation shifts for everyone to swap when needed, which means that the choice becomes a non-choice. The game community as a whole dictates your options. The harder it is to change, the less likely people are to expect you to be optimal all of the time, and we can start differentiating ourselves from one another without the malice and ill-intent of a wholly competitive atmosphere. I don't want to just be part of a game that is okay with mediocrity for the sake of avoiding an entire section of the players, I'm not an advocate for exclusion. It hasn't gotten me anywhere and has kept players too isolated. I want us to have common ground to discuss and appreciate a system that affects us all at every level. But that only works if people are willing to let it be what it is, and not change it because they're only focused on one part of the game.

I mean... their words on the old talent trees were that everyone picked the same talents and it didn't offer any real choices but acted as a trap for new players...

You won't ever have this collective you want. What you will have is mythic + players kicking people who are not the right covenant at all levels ( the community works on see what top players are doing and mirror it regardless of difficulty) followed by raiders rejecting applicants for being the wrong covenant....

All you are going to end up doing is breeding conflict and strife in your misguided attempt to make people be happy with mediocrity.

[gaaara]

Let's look at what Covenants represents...
Legion Legendary
BFA Azerites
BFA Essences
BFA Corruptions.

All of which, once acquired were items we can swap based on the content your playing.

We have Battlegrounds/Arena/Mythic+ and Raiding, and based on that content you would use xyz item from the above list.

When we look at Covenants, the biggest issue we have so far in Alpha is the locked in choice, and a unknown certainty around what we can do if we want to go with another Covenant.

This is a big issue for those who do high end raiding like Mythic, or high Mythic+ Keys or in PVP is that if your locked into something...and its the wrong choice...your out of luck...or if blizzard nerfs something...your out of luck. There is no mention of cost/time required yet, and i think Blizzard really needs to consider flexibility with their new core theme.

There is so much we don't know about Shadowlands and there is so much that can change over from just between Alpha to Alpha to Beta to Live...but we should voice our concerns around this is going to be a pain if there is no flexibility with your choices.

The only people that can defend and suggest that, too bad you made the wrong choice...is people who probably don't do high end keys or end game mythic raiding. In Heroic...you can do whatever you want, in Mythic, your stuck with 20 people and the min/max is huuuge for progress.

I don't see why choice should really be penalized in WoW as they have moved away from those things for a long time.

[Big Thanks]

I mean... their words on the old talent trees were that everyone picked the same talents and it didn't offer any real choices but acted as a trap for new players...

You won't ever have this collective you want. What you will have is mythic + players kicking people who are not the right covenant at all levels ( the community works on see what top players are doing and mirror it regardless of difficulty) followed by raiders rejecting applicants for being the wrong covenant....

All you are going to end up doing is breeding conflict and strife in your misguided attempt to make people be happy with mediocrity.

Oh please...

The player you are talking about who is kicking other people for X and Y ARE min maxers OR wannabe min maxers.

And did you just try to create the argument:
The Pug scene will be better if we remove covenants"?

The pug scene will always be a mess with the only solution being "make your own group"