Why is BFA hated ?

[Soon-TM]

just "walk" a bit on this very forum and you will find people praising both wod and cata as amazing expansions...
sure, majority still consider WoD bad, but seems like the majority is getting smaller every year people have memory of a fucking goldfish when it comes to wow expansions...
for example praising wotlk wit hthe same breath as claiming 8.3 was "empty" always craks me up, as patches 8.1 and 8.3 had a lot less content

Please point me to the poll that shows both xpacs on (Cata/WoD) on top, or near of it. They've ranked consistently at the bottom, and for good reasons, even if you don't agree.

[Lei]

just "walk" a bit on this very forum and you will find people praising both wod and cata as amazing expansions...
sure, majority still consider WoD bad, but seems like the majority is getting smaller every year people have memory of a fucking goldfish when it comes to wow expansions...
for example praising wotlk wit hthe same breath as claiming 8.3 was "empty" always craks me up, as patches 8.1 and 8.3 had a lot less content

When I judge an expansion I don't judge it in vacuum. I judge it comparing to other expacs in their own respective time.
I played wotlk non stop. I unsubbed from bfa 2 months in, came back for one month in 8.2, then unsubbed again.
I didn't like a lot of things in WoD, but I still think it was better in its time for me (than bfa), for my playing purpose and goals.
EVERYTHING after MoP was way worse than ever before. I didn't like legion either. So once you have an expansio nthat you really really liked, anything after that is slightly worse will be.. worse. Wod's one saving grace was the goldfarm and the easy alt leveling so you could farm mounts and xmogs way easier, and since you could farm gold from the garrisons, people had many alts. It was a loop.
So yeah. I didn't like Cata in its own time too much, but comparing to Legion and BfA? I had a lot of things to do with my playstyle (collections, achieves, casual goldmaking etc)

[Lolites]

When I judge an expansion I don't judge it in vacuum. I judge it comparing to other expacs in their own respective time.
I played wotlk non stop. I unsubbed from bfa 2 months in, came back for one month in 8.2, then unsubbed again.
I didn't like a lot of things in WoD, but I still think it was better in its time for me (than bfa), for my playing purpose and goals.
EVERYTHING after MoP was way worse than ever before. I didn't like legion either. So once you have an expansio nthat you really really liked, anything after that is slightly worse will be.. worse. Wod's one saving grace was the goldfarm and the easy alt leveling so you could farm mounts and xmogs way easier, and since you could farm gold from the garrisons, people had many alts. It was a loop.
So yeah. I didn't like Cata in its own time too much, but comparing to Legion and BfA? I had a lot of things to do with my playstyle (collections, achieves, casual goldmaking etc)

doesnt matter if you judge it in vacuum or not, in 3.1 and 3.2 both we got raid (in 3.2 raid + dung but together smaller than usual raid) and couple dailies, how the hell can anyone say 8.3 had LESS content? and people were rambling about that since its PTR...
quality or preference about the content is one thing, but people were literaly claiming 8.3 is worst, emptiest patch ever...

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Please point me to the poll that shows both xpacs on (Cata/WoD) on top, or near of it. They've ranked consistently at the bottom, and for good reasons, even if you don't agree.

im sorry, when did i mention polls? or you just wanna move the argument somewhere else where you are actualy right?
as i literaly said, and you choose to ignore, YES majority still consider wod worst, but a lot of people praise WOD and cata as great expansions (far more than when they were current)...

[StillMcfuu]

Because it's Legion 2.0 with Legion 1.0 problems, and Legion 1.0 kind of sucked.
The things that were added for BFA (Islands, Battlefronts) weren't great either.
My biggest issues:
Loss of Tier sets real chopped the legs out of wanting to raid more or on Alts.
Story started out alright, but Blizz should have went GoT and killed off some old characters and drop in some new ones. All we lost was Saurfang, and other than the Vanilla meme and Wrath he was basically non-existent in the story.

Seriously, Saurfang was pushed as some major figure, but I couldn't care less about him. They should have killed off Thrall and Baine... and Genn maybe Prophet Velen. Impact the game a bit.

[Echocho]

A substantial amount of the hate comes from the toxic private server community that hate everything that has content and/or difficulty.

BfA certainly haven't been great but it had its bright spots.

[Raelbo]

Tiny fraction that are 'fanboys' enough to make thousands of posts so majority of people here should be positive about the game.

Yet they don't. So you're wrong.

There is zero basis for assuming that MMO-C is representative of the playerbase at large. Hell, a lot of posters here don't even play the game anymore, they just like to hang around and bad mouth the game.

Unfortunately forums like this attract negative people and end up creating echo chambers of awful opinions, and most would avoid engaging with arguments like this because they know they're just going to be shouted down by a mob of unreasonable people uninterested in actual debate.

I do not need to use argument here in the first place.
1. OP wanted to hear opinions why is BFA hated.
2. I presented one of my points why I THINK it is bad.
3. Now you are trying to say that my OPINION is wrong in MY EYES.

Do you see the problem here?

It's really, really simple. You called me out for lacking an argument in my counter. Yet you never made an argument in the first place. You don't have a monopoly on opinions here mate. You want to state your opinion, cool. If others disagree, they're entitled to disagree. That's the whole point of a forum. It doesn't mean I think your opinion is wrong in your eyes, it means I think your opinion is critically flawed.

Oh... so now it is common sense. Somebody just said 'vocal minority'... nice.

I said it's common sense because the logic should be self evident. Clearly I was giving you too much credit in that regard.

During current patch doing Uldir, Dazar'Alar or even Azshara (ok you got one trinket here) is totally pointless.

My question was: Since when was any tier irrelevant while it was current?
Uldir, Dazar'alor or Azshara are not current content. Nya'Lotha is current content.

Which means that Uldir, Dazar'alor and Azshara are obsolete, not because they no longer drop meaningful gear, but because a new raid content came out. Sorry, but I simply do not understand why any rational person wants to argue that it's a bad thing that those older instances are no longer relevant as progression/gearing content. They served their purpose as that while they were current and all of us had more than enough time to play those tiers to death while they were current and relevant.

The whole point of Blizzard making new content is precisely because people get tired of doing the same content over and over again. Old raids are done. Players want to move on. Who the hell wants to be forced to progress through old tiers when there is new, shiny content that everyone else is doing?

You know when last this game did force players to progress through every tier with no catch-up mechanism? TBC. And it nearly killed the game. People like to look at TBC through rose-tinted glasses. But they'll happily ignore the 10's of millions of players who quit (because the game made up for it with high recruitment of new players)

Yes, the idea of progressing through tiers, from one to the next until you defeat the final boss is cool. And for the top end of players (ie 1-2%) that's exactly how TBC worked, and it was indeed awesome. But for the other 98-99% it was shit because you basically got stuck on a lower tier, unable to progress because every time a better guild lost a player, they'd poach one of yours, meaning you'd need to start progressing again from the start to get your new recruits geared up, only for the cycle to repeat just when you're getting somewhere again.

Catch-up mechanisms don't stop anyone from progressing through tiers. It's exactly what I have been doing in my guild for the last 10 years - progressing through a raid tier, finishing it, waiting for the next, then progressing that one. The difference now only applies to people who aren't around for a tier in that they no longer need to go do the tier they missed.

No, i would not. Not anymore atleast. I did it too many times already.
As i said it is waste of time convincing people that all microtransations are cancerous.

Dude, the reason people have repeatedly failed to convince me that microtransactions are cancerous is not because I am unconvincible. It's because the arguments are always spewing the same garbage diatribe. And the reason they remain garbage is because the people who make them are always more interested in repeating their opinions than in conversing.

Where did i say anything about P2W?
Stop putting words to my mouth.

Lol, where did I say you said that. I quite clearly stated that these are arguments commonly made by "people". Not you specifically. I listed those specific arguments as being the mainstay fallacies to save you the effort of repeating them. Of course if you have a new or novel argument that doesn't simply repeat that same nonsense, then you're more than welcome to share it and I am, as always, open minded enough to consider it.

Ok, so be honest now.
How many times did you do Warfronds and Islands just to have fun instead farming X mount or pet?

My playstyle is to focus on content that I find fun while also helping me achieve some objective.

My approach to islands is simple: Do 3 mythics or 2 PvP for the week. Have a bit of casual fun doing so. Generally I find the mythics to be more relaxing - it's basically just a quick "comp stomp" which is fun in its own way. PvP can be a bit of fun, but my problem is that no one in my guild is interested in PvP and pugging for PvP isn't as appealing. Get the weekly quest with the AP and mission reward. Repeat on some alts if I am in the mood.

Prior to this patch I was doing 2-3 characters a week. Since the patch there is other content and I am doing it on my main only.

Like I said, it's side content. Low priority and more of a distraction than anything else. Of course I want the mounts and pets, but I am not going to grind 100 islands a week to get them because that turns it into a mindless chore.

Get the quest for my mission table and the AP reward.


Warfronts: The first time doing Arathi I really enjoyed it. I made a point of doing it the next few cycles and then found I was done with it. Did it on a few alts as well when they were gearing up. When Darkshore released I did basically the same. When the heroic versions our guild organised a few runs and that was a lot of fun.

Again, I regard warfronts as side content and did them as much as I found to be fun.


I'd be very interested to hear what you had to say if you were being "honest" about the content you participate in.

Master looter is just one of the many examples

Yes, one of many examples in which Blizzard listened to player feedback, weighed up all the angles, and acted as they thought best.

Oh... suddenly you are Blizzard employee that know it is 'milions' of tickets?

Where did I say I was a Blizzard employee?

If you want to know the basis of my claim, my brother was a GM for 7 years. I had a conversation with him a few years back and he told me how much of a godsend PL had been. As he put it, most of the tickets he and every other GM he was working with had to deal with on a daily basis were around loot disputes and since the introduction of PL that number had dropped significantly. He also told me that he wouldn't be surprised if they eventually got rid of ML altogether. Lo and behold a few years on and ML was removed.

The "millions" claim is a guess. But I would argue that given that WoW has had between 4 and 12M active players for more than 15 years - so let's say 100M played years, I don't think that "millions" of tickets for loot disputes is wrong. You are, of course, welcome to help me see where my thinking is flawed in this.

As i pointed the middle ground would be leaving ML just for guild runs and probably everyone is happy.

The "middle ground" is what they had for years, running PL in tandem with ML.

Obviously I am not inside Ion's head, so I can't know with absolute certainty all the facts that he had at his disposal when making the call to get rid of ML entirely, but one to assume that it was made on some sort of rationale, instead of purely to piss of mythic guilds.

His comment on the topic was this:

“Yes, there are a number of high end groups out there, tight knit guilds that have harmoniously awarded loot over the years . . . but what group and master loot often mean for many people is that they are at the mercy of others in ways that often aren’t fair,”

As I have said, I know for a fact that loot disputes have historically been a major source of GM tickets. It's simple business sense that Blizzard wants to minimize such tickets because: 1) they're indicative of negative customer experiences 2) they are a major waste of manpower to resolve

Honestly, I would have assume it wouldn't take a genius to connect the dots and realise that clearly there was a significant problem even in the guild environment with unhappy players as a result of the way ML was being handled. Maybe that's a bad assumption on my part.

[Kaver]

Hello.

Why is BFA so hated ? Sometimes more than WOD.

I don't want to talk WOD vs. BFA. Both expansions were bad and I don't care which one was worst. It's doesn't matter.

Battle For Azeroth is bad in my opinion because I believe Blizzard took Legion at made it worse:

1) They made classes worse. In BFA classes feels slow and annoying compared to how they felt in Legion. They removed a lot of abilities and made the GCD change.

2) They made the game much less alt friendly. In Legion every class had their own quests and story. Therefore it was very fun to play a new class. A lot of people were playing 5-6 different characters in Legion and now in BFA they are maybe playing 2.

3) None of the new content they added were fun (in my opinion). Island Expeditions and Warfronts are just boring content (in my opinion).

4) The story sucked in my opinion. N'zoth is supposed to be the "main villain" but for Alliance players Sylvanas is more the main villain than N'zoth. For the Horde the story was just a shit show. The whole story about Ny'alotha went way too fast.

Expansions are supposed to improve the game but in my opinion BFA just made the game worse. In my opinion WOD was a horrible expansion and BFA was a horrible expansion. I don't care which one was the worst because they were both bad.

[Soon-TM]

YES majority still consider wod worst

Thanks for disproving your own point, aka "last expansion is always seen as the worst".

[sam86]

the shortest answer : a slim version of Legion
Nothing BFA tried or did that Legion didn't do better, and Legion was exactly before it, even the worst of BFA : pruning, we had pruning in Legion (massive one, i didn't play healers since MoP and in Legion i was shocked how ruined they are) but we got a lot of passive and even new active ones to compensate, in BFA we get nothing

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Yet they don't. So you're wrong.
There is zero basis for assuming that MMO-C is representative of the playerbase at large. Hell, a lot of posters here don't even play the game anymore, they just like to hang around and bad mouth the game.

So the fictional non existing playerbase who doesn't write at all is the majority, and ppl who talk are minority, is that what u saying?
Nope
Unless u can get a better representation of wow playerbase, this is the best one so far, it isn't accurate (duh!) but since when any data gathering is 100% accurate?
This is the best option available, treat it like that, until a better one is offered, which won't happen unless blizz actually give a f8ck about it, and blizz since TBC had the lovely habit of ban anyone who even type their own official answer "why we kill illidan? because he drop epics" because that's how 'democratic' they are, as democratic as North Korea, you have the right to kiss their a88 or get banned

[Soon-TM]

You have the right to kiss their a88 or get banned

Tbh there are some folks in these boards who would love to do the same here. Fortunately moderation here is certainly better than in the very official forums

[Madkat124]

Bad systems, Bad Story, Bad gameplay.

[kaminaris]

2) They made the game much less alt friendly. In Legion every class had their own quests and story. Therefore it was very fun to play a new class. A lot of people were playing 5-6 different characters in Legion and now in BFA they are maybe playing 2.

I didn't read the rest of the post but this is absolutely a false.
Less incentive to play alts doesn't mean less alt friendly. It's just not required to have alts in legion anymore because:
1. Alts dont make you milions of gold
2. You do not need 12 alts to experience the story from each angle

Legion was basically forcing people to play alts. Thank god it's gone.

[Doffen]

I don't want to talk WOD vs. BFA. Both expansions were bad and I don't care which one was worst. It's doesn't matter.

Battle For Azeroth is bad in my opinion because I believe Blizzard took Legion at made it worse:

1) They made classes worse. In BFA classes feels slow and annoying compared to how they felt in Legion. They removed a lot of abilities and made the GCD change.

2) They made the game much less alt friendly. In Legion every class had their own quests and story. Therefore it was very fun to play a new class. A lot of people were playing 5-6 different characters in Legion and now in BFA they are maybe playing 2.

3) None of the new content they added were fun (in my opinion). Island Expeditions and Warfronts are just boring content (in my opinion).

4) The story sucked in my opinion. N'zoth is supposed to be the "main villain" but for Alliance players Sylvanas is more the main villain than N'zoth. For the Horde the story was just a shit show. The whole story about Ny'alotha went way too fast.

Expansions are supposed to improve the game but in my opinion BFA just made the game worse. In my opinion WOD was a horrible expansion and BFA was a horrible expansion. I don't care which one was the worst because they were both bad.

Spot on.

Replayability. Legion had ton of that when it comes to alts and main since every class hall was different. Each spec was unique. Each Artifact weapon and their skins were unique cosmetics that you could earn. Different Mage Tower questline/fight for roles/dps also gave you something new to do on your characters.

I have always only had 2-3 alts I played regularly. Except for in WoD when I had 7. But that was WoD. Content was crap so they leveled up and did raids. But at least the specs was more fun to play. Thats not me saying WoD is better, at all. But to that single point it was. Then Legion came and I got 14 characters to 120, all with at least one spec I really enjoyed. Two MM Hunters, two holydins, two Arcane Mages and one of the rest of the classes.

Legion gave alts a purpose. Which BfA do not. I got 16 at 120 now thanks to Korraks Revenge(BfA have had good variety in leveling, gotta say that)Barely play 5 of them. Anchor Weed alts most of them. Can't be arsed pugging or something similar, and the other content I barely touch because BfA got no replayability. Do Warfront on your 5th char is so "fun". Doing Islands on your 3rd is so "fun". Doing Horrific Vision, the same two Visions week in and week out is just boring AF. And thats not just the contents fault. But classes plays so much slower and so much more similar now than in Legion. It's almost like the devs rushed it all.

Shadowlands is already better for replayability than BfA has been for 21 months. Covenants give you a reason to play alts. Its a toned down Class Hall(blizz said 12 Class Halls was a lot of work, can see the reasoning) that gives you awesome cosmetics and choices. Even if Torghast fails we still have the Covenants for that purpose.

Blizzard said in an interview about Shadowlands that alt friendliness could mean different things. Power is one of them, giving content for the alts is another. Spot on by blizzard, and it clearly shows with SL that they don't think they did that part very well in BfA.

[Kaver]

Less incentive to play alts doesn't mean less alt friendly.

That's a technicality. I'm not going to discuss the definition of "alt friendly" with you because it is besides the point anyway.

However, my point was that when you made an alt in Legion there was actually some new content you could do compared to your main. It was more fun leveling and gearing up an alt in Legion than it is in BFA. Also, personally I was a huge fan of the mage tower, so playing it with alts was great for me. That's just my opinion at least.

Personally I can say that I had a lot of alts in Legion (not to make gold) and I only have one in BFA. And I know it's the same for a lot of players.

[kaminaris]

That's a technicality. I wouldn't say it's absolutely false. It depends how you define "alt friendly". Personally I think it matters how fun it is to play alts and I think Legion did a much better job in that regard than BFA.

Of course an expansion shouldn't force you to play alts if you don't want to. I completely agree, that's bad.

However, my point was that when you made an alt in Legion there was actually some new content you could do compared to your main. It was more fun leveling and gearing up an alt in Legion than it is in BFA. Also, personally I was a huge fan of the mage tower, so playing it with alts was great for me. That's just my opinion at least.

Having different story would have been enough but It was absolute nightmare trying to get leggos on alts so they were mostly used to know entire story and make milions of gold. Having too much story put into each class is also bad because lets face it, main story got cut because of that.

[Kaver]

Having different story would have been enough but It was absolute nightmare trying to get leggos on alts so they were mostly used to know entire story and make milions of gold. Having too much story put into each class is also bad because lets face it, main story got cut because of that.

I don't want to discuss this too much because in the end it's not going to change anything.

All I can say is that I enjoyed alts much more in Legion and I know a lot of players feel the same way. That's just my opinion. Respect.

[Yriel]

Warfronts: The first time doing Arathi I really enjoyed it. I made a point of doing it the next few cycles and then found I was done with it. Did it on a few alts as well when they were gearing up. When Darkshore released I did basically the same. When the heroic versions our guild organised a few runs and that was a lot of fun.

I agree, i enjoyed them at first, too. But they are not content that one can play for years. If Blizz were able to put out a new one every month or every few months or have like 10 maps on a monthly rotation i think they would be good content.

[Heavens Night]

Hello.

Why is BFA so hated ? Sometimes more than WOD.

_ Bad systems
_ Poor class design
_ Crappy AP grind (again)
_ Terrible levelling system to 120
_ Poor writing
_ GCD changes

[Thage]

People who don't post on forums may be "happily playing"... Or may have left altogether without saying a word. Until you can provide verifiable numbers for both cases, gtfo with your "silent majority" fallacy.

I never understood appeals to a silent majority. If anything, customer service work will quickly teach you that for every customer who complains, ten have left with no intentions of ever coming back, and five of those ten have begun spreading negative word of mouth about your business/product/service.

[op3l]

I don't think a lot of the players who thinks it's bad necessarily knows this much about the game.

For me it's just the game was dumbed down way too far. GCD added to some buff skills slowed the game play down too much for my liking. The gear system is crap making gear even more difficult cause now you gotta get the right stats, higher ilevel, AND the right traits or it's vendor trash.

Skills we grew accustomed to in legion from the weapons instead of being added to baseline was taken away, and we had to choose to have that or another skill. I freaking just beat Sargeras and Kil'Jaden, I'm the most powerful being the WoW universe has ever seen, yet I have less skills to use and I feel clunkier going into the expansion... right...

The slowness isn't helped by the fact that whatever they did... it felt more like a chore than Legion. I had a ton of alts during Legion, they all had maxed out artifact weapon levels and all had pretty good gear AND I was raiding enough to get heroic Argus. But in BFA I was barely able to keep 2 characters "current" thanks to the silly artifact system. That's not fun at all. It just got too grindy and took too much time and became a chore.