Is this an acceptable compromise for LFR?

[Raelbo]

Pro-LFR players as well as Blizzard often justify the existence of LFR with the phrase "It allows low-end players to see the content and serves as a gear catch-up mechanic."

Well that's not really the argument. It's there so that anyone who plays the game can participate in the current content, at a level they can manage, with rewards commensurate to their level of play.

Anti-LFR players will counter with: If you want to gear up do the old raids and 5-mans, being able to do current content is a privilege earned by being good enough to access it, everything else cheapens the game.

Completely ridiculous. Being able to do the game on its highest difficulty and get the coolest rewards, sure, is a privilege that should be earned. But how on earth the existence of LFR "cheapens" the game needs to be substantiated properly instead of stated as some sort of known fact.

So basically we have a Pro-LFR argument which is completely reasonable, and the Anti-LFR argument which is completely unreasonable. The solution is simple: Ignore the Anti-LFR demands until they come up with a better argument.

So here's my idea: Blizz could get rid of the LFR difficulty but keep the mechanic. When a new raid launches they'd open up the previous raids normal mode for LFR, WITH the stacking damage/healing buff.

No. Just no. Sorry, but that's a terrible idea. It's essentially giving the middle finger to the vast majority of the playerbase in order to placate a small group who are being petty.

Here's some bullet points on why I think this would be a good approach:

-it won't be quite as easy as current-day LFR but may force weaker players to become better

You cannot "force" weaker players to become better as long as the option to quit the game exists.

-current raid content stays exclusive to those geared and able to do it until it doesn't matter to them any more

There is no good reason to keep current raid content exclusive. Keeping the harder modes, with their superior rewards exclusive is already sufficient.

-everyone still gets to see every raid tier (last raid gets LFR in pre-patch for next exp.)

It would infinitely preferable to be able to see the raid while it's actually current.

-may give some players the push to actually get into real raiding

On what basis? That it's the only way they're going to be able to see the content while it's current? That didn't work before LFR, so I don't see any reason why it would suddenly work now.

LFR was created precisely because most players had grown tired of not being able to participate in the raid content.

-possibly frees up development resources (more other content)

That makes no sense. LFR as is already frees up development resources because it means that they can re-use raid content for the massive chunk of the playerbase who use LFR instead of having to make special content for these players.

This is just an idea I had, not necessarily an opinion of how things should be. I think it'd be an interesting approach, so please discuss.

Sorry, but I don't see anything interesting about this approach. I don't believe it addresses any legitimate need, and I think it will undermine a significant number of the needs catered to by the existing system.

I guess I can at least say that you got your approach right in that you tried to figure out what was wrong with LFR and then tried to design a solution to address it. Unfortunately you failed to get the first part right, so your solution was never to going to be good.

[Steelcryo]

I used to do heroic/mythic raiding, but don't anymore as I stopped enjoying it, only time I really see raids anymore is through LFR because I want to see the story. If I had to wait months or watch youtube to see it rather than play it myself, I'd probably just lose all interest.

What is funny though is my guild still raids mythic as do a lot of my friends and not a single one of them has a problem with LFR. In fact, I don't think I've ever spoken to anyone who raids Mythic who gives a shit about LFR existing, because it makes no difference to them. Honestly, I struggle to see why anyone would have a problem with LFR or want it removed outside of elitist bullshit. Unless it's someone who only uses LFR complaining about the state of it (because it is a shit show) but that's because of the players, not the feature itself.

[glowpipe]

The problem you are trying to solve with lfr is no longer a problem. Player complained about lfr when it had set items in it. They felt compelled to run lfr for one more shot at getting a set bonus. Thats the only complaints there has been with lfr. Set items are gone, lfr is fine. No need to change anything

[Twdft]

I've explained by I believe WoW is dying. If you chose to gloss over my explanation then that is your decision. All I will say is that I am on a few servers, two of which used to be bustling at all times of the day with activity. Now? It's only active at peak times and an absolute ghost town at all other times. And even at peak, it's a shadow of what it was in Legion and the beginning of BfA.

So you believe Blizzard lies in its earnings call which btw they are required by law to file with the SEC. I'm sure somewhere in the law it says they can't lie too.

After doubling in the second half of 2019, World of Warcraft’s active player community1 increased further in the first quarter, driven by both new and returning players, as the team continued to deliver more content between expansions than ever before.

[Rotted]

Personally, I stand on neither side of the debate but I know many people here do.

I've had this shower thought about a possible compromise in my head for a couple days now and that's what I wanted to discuss, so please keep it civil.

Pro-LFR players as well as Blizzard often justify the existence of LFR with the phrase "It allows low-end players to see the content and serves as a gear catch-up mechanic."
Anti-LFR players will counter with: If you want to gear up do the old raids and 5-mans, being able to do current content is a privilege earned by being good enough to access it, everything else cheapens the game.

I see reason in both viewpoints, but the "allows players to see the content part" if somewhat moot because there's the dungeon journal, there's Youtube and if that's all they're concerned about, making a lore video about a new raid HAS to be cheaper than cheating an entirely separate difficulty.

So the way I see it it's just about gear catch-up. Part of that is indeed covered by daily quests and 5-mans.

So here's my idea: Blizz could get rid of the LFR difficulty but keep the mechanic. When a new raid launches they'd open up the previous raids normal mode for LFR, WITH the stacking damage/healing buff. Here's some bullet points on why I think this would be a good approach:

-it won't be quite as easy as current-day LFR but may force weaker players to become better
-current raid content stays exclusive to those geared and able to do it until it doesn't matter to them any more
-everyone still gets to see every raid tier (last raid gets LFR in pre-patch for next exp.)
-may give some players the push to actually get into real raiding
-possibly frees up development resources (more other content)


I realize that this would mean no LFR for the first raid tier of an expansion. Since the dev cycle for an expansion is longer and more involved than for a major patch they could do LFR difficulty for the first tier only. Or maybe they can bring back small-scale introductory raids in the style of Karazhan to fill the gaps between raids. Or they just recycle an old 10-man now and then (Strath has been a while, Zul'Aman, maybe even Dire Maul) for gear catch-up. Creating new content is expensive, tweaking some numbers is pretty cheap. The recycling thing would fit well with the seasonal design of modern WoW and offers an opportunity to tie quest lines for the new recipes every major patch into somewhat fresh and more diverse content that's separate from raids.

This is just an idea I had, not necessarily an opinion of how things should be. I think it'd be an interesting approach, so please discuss.

wouldn't work because of the increased difficulty. Nearly every LFR has one or two bosses which are next to impossible in most groups. The only reason they get done is because theres a handful of people who know the fight and follow the mechanics. KJ in legion being a prime example. Increasing the base line difficulty is asking for trouble.

The only way to properly incorporate LFR in my opinion, would be to remove epics entirely from dungeons up to mythic. Change the LFR loot from epic to blue which is fractionally below par of mythic 0 dungeons. Then remove the option of LFR gear being able to titan or warforge.

Then make it fractionally easier and quicker.

That way, people who want to run LFR to see the content still can and it's still a source for "alright" gear, while gearing toons. Because currently LFR is insane. I don#t particularly care people have gear I don't but I found it frustrating have heroic on farm, going weeks without a specific item (in my experience was a trinket) then seeing someone decked out in green and blues get a titanforged version that places it higher than heroic base. It just shouldn't happen.

[TheRevenantHero]

So you believe Blizzard lies in its earnings call which btw they are required by law to file with the SEC. I'm sure somewhere in the law it says they can't lie too.

After doubling in the second half of 2019, World of Warcraft’s active player community1 increased further in the first quarter, driven by both new and returning players, as the team continued to deliver more content between expansions than ever before.

We have no idea what those numbers were before the "doubling". It's PURPOSELY vague. Because guess what? 2+2=4 and is an example of doubling.

[Trend]

I don't know why you're so angry and continuously misconstruing my attempt at having a harmless discussion as some sinister plot to try and take away your beloved LFR

I agree people should not act angry about it, but if you're going to create a thread you should have an awareness of how your thread fits an already exhausted pattern. There is a very vocal minority that insists there is some problem with LFR that needs to be "fixed". Your thread does the same. It assumes that out of all the systems in WoW that LFR is something that should get dev time and effort to change. This horse was beaten to death many years ago.

Obviously, feel free to theorize whatever you want, but I'm going to say there is an approximately 0% chance that fundamentally changing LFR is something the WoW team would even look at doing in the next 2+ years.

- - - Updated - - -

SWTOR is nearly 10 years old and still has plenty people playing it for it to continue making new content.

it's been surmised by numerous people that WoW is MAYBE at 2 million subs right now and that's being generous. The game is dying quickly, dude. And good riddance, honestly.

This is good comedy.

SWTOR is a healthy game and WoW is "dying quickly". LMAO, check.

I mean if a bunch of dumbasses surmise that the earth is flat, who am I to argue right? Basically, if at least one other person echos the thinking that you want to be true, it has to be correct! Just FYI, the more you insist how you can calculate the subs, the more comical you appear.

[Mysterymask]

I agree people should not act angry about it, but if you're going to create a thread you should have an awareness of how your thread fits an already exhausted pattern. There is a very vocal minority that insists there is some problem with LFR that needs to be "fixed". Your thread does the same. It assumes that out of all the systems in WoW that LFR is something that should get dev time and effort to change. This horse was beaten to death many years ago.

The sad thing there WERE problems with LFR and honestly most of those problems WERE fixed...the problem with LFR is the people which let's face it Blizzard CAN'T fix

The PROBLEMS with LFR were:
Cata: Everyone just need rolled everything. Solution was implementing Personal Loot
Mists/WoD: Legendary stuff was obtainable in LFR making it a requirement for mid tier guilds who couldn't quite clear the current raid. No Longer the case

Only real problems now is well people are assholes and people who feel like they HAVE to do LFR for a tier set or a trinket...which people will always be assholes and people who wanna bash their face against something for a crappier version of a piece of gear they are shooting for more power to them. Blizz can't stop well Masochistic players and well people who just wanna be assholes.


also since someone's going to say this...LFR DID NOT CAUSE MORE PEOPLE TO BE ASSHOLES. THOSE ASSHOLES WERE IN WOW THE ENTIRE TIME YOU JUST DID NOT PLAY WITH THEM UNTIL YOU DID SOMETHING THAT PUTS YOU IN A POOL WITH EVERY PLAYER IN YOUR REGION AND RANDOMLY ASSIGNS YOU TO A GROUP.

If you think that's not the case do a normal in your server....and pick people LFR Style. Just need a minimum Ilvl, someone who says 2 people who can tank and say they tank, 5 people who can heal and say they heal, and 17 DPS who say they DPS. just pick them randomly we'll see how well you go.

[Milfshaked]

So you believe Blizzard lies in its earnings call which btw they are required by law to file with the SEC. I'm sure somewhere in the law it says they can't lie too.

After doubling in the second half of 2019, World of Warcraft’s active player community1 increased further in the first quarter, driven by both new and returning players, as the team continued to deliver more content between expansions than ever before.

As someone that works with financial law, including earnings call, lets get some thing straight here. Earnings calls are basically PR fluff pieces that are shown to investors where companies twist everything that can in their favor and try to hide anything that does not look good. While some things have legal requirements, others do not.

Lets digest the statement you quoted. First of all, they are using vague and relative terms. "Doubling", "increased further". This is a massive red flag. Vagueness and relative terms are used when the numbers are shit and you had to use some statistical voodoo and lawyering jumbo to make it sound better than it is. When combining the two claims that are made and see how they are worded, you can read between the lines why they did so.

1. "After doubling in the second half of 2019" - This sentence intentionally does not mention how much it doubled and at what point in time. That tells you that the numbers were low before doubling, meaning that the doubling in itself was not that great. The use of "Second half" is also incredibly telling. This is because the doubling came from WoW Classic which released in Q3 so they cant write Q4. This also means that the Q4 numbers were bad, since they omit them.

2. "increased further in the first quarter" - This is actually pretty hillarious. This statement is created by not mentioning Q4. So we know that they doubled in aug/sep and that the increased during jan-mar. But what happened inbetween? The statements purpose is the give the false impression that they first doubled and then continued to increased, but that is not what they are saying. Their numbers were likely very bad and they pushed out BWL combined with lockdowns to get some subs back just to say that they "increased" from bad to slightly less bad. A fun thing to do is compare this to their statement about King and Candy Crush. There they explicitly say that it grew month by month and year over year. Them not saying the same thing about WoW shows a lot.

3. "as the team continued to deliver more content between expansions than ever before." - This is also pretty funny. They pretend like this has something to do with something they actually actively control and do, rather then them pushing a new raid tier in february after a massive Q4 decline. Their attempt is to make it seem like it is sustainable, which it is clearly not as Classic dont have more raids to release after Naxx.

So basically, what we can get from the last few earning calls from Blizzard is that.

WoW was doing very poorly before classic. Classic drove a massive boost, but once the hype died down, a massive decline started. The current state today is not good and possibly down to pre-classic levels.

[Advent]

Guild Wars 2, Final Fantasy 14, and Black Desert Online are all available to the Western audience and are far better games than WoW. Oh and ESO. The only reason so many people play WoW is because of the mentality of "I've invested this much into it, may as well keep playing."

It couldn't possibly be because we tried those games and didn't like them!

[TheRevenantHero]

It couldn't possibly be because we tried those games and didn't like them!

I'm willing to accept that's the case for some people. But often times, especially on the forum, the attitude is typically like what I mentioned. They've invested this much time into it so may as well just stick with it. Like a routine, almost.

[Baine]

Personally, I don't want to learn a new game in this genre. I am not a RPG or action player (I mostly play stayefy/sandbox/simulation games). WOW is the sole exception these days.

[kamuimac]

I have even better idea.

How about we don't change anything, because it's fine as it is?

i honestly wonder what problem people have with lfr,

if i managed to get multiple alts in 8.3 to 457-459 range without ever touching any form of raiding or mythic + what problem they have with mode that drops 430 .

im honestly curious what those people are fighting with and for .

[Gaidax]

i honestly wonder what problem people have with lfr,

if i managed to get multiple alts in 8.3 to 457-459 range without ever touching any form of raiding or mythic + what problem they have with mode that drops 430 .

im honestly curious what those people are fighting with and for .

There is this perverse assumption that LFR draws away people from "proper" raiding. That's about the gist of it. So you have these Heroic and 3/12M guilds feeling threatened "becuz LFR took ourr joorbs", as if they want LFR raiders in their mythic progression kekw.

Oh and there is another crowd that wants to turn WoW into some sort of second job where people should aspire to greatness and promotions at all points and levels.

Basically a bunch of edgelords and weirdos.

[Trend]

As someone that works with financial law, including earnings call, lets get some thing straight here. Earnings calls are basically PR fluff pieces that are shown to investors where companies twist everything that can in their favor and try to hide anything that does not look good. While some things have legal requirements, others do not.

I'm going to guess that what you mean is that you are a small time day trader since there is a lot about the reporting that you don't seem to understand. You obsess over trivial things, such as sub counts, and you don't seem to understand the significance of public reporting is about the money. Every company uses general language to paint a picture of the general trends in the company that are not part of the specific metric reporting. Not that you can't find any causes for concern with how things are phrased, but if you're that touchy you could find fault in every single company's reporting.

ATVI has been doing well. That has been driven by institutional investing. I think those guys probably understand how to read the reporting a little better than you do.

[Niku]

Nice echo chamber here.

[Milfshaked]

I'm going to guess that what you mean is that you are a small time day trader since there is a lot about the reporting that you don't seem to understand. You obsess over trivial things, such as sub counts, and you don't seem to understand the significance of public reporting is about the money. Every company uses general language to paint a picture of the general trends in the company that are not part of the specific metric reporting. Not that you can't find any causes for concern with how things are phrased, but if you're that touchy you could find fault in every single company's reporting.

ATVI has been doing well. That has been driven by institutional investing. I think those guys probably understand how to read the reporting a little better than you do.

No, I do not own any stocks. As I said, I work with financial law, as in a corporate lawyer. Part of which includes reading earnings calls before release to see what can legally be said or not.

I did not "obsess over trivial things". I was talking about the relevant point of discussion, which was sub numbers. The person that I replied to was talking about sub count. I could talk about the money, but that would be me talking about something irrelevant and changing the topic instead of sticking to the relevant question. The discussion was not about the money. How well ATVI is doing has nothing to do with this discussion. Your attempts at derailing the conversation into something that nobody was talking about is not impressive.

[Nato85]

LFR needs to have quicker queues though...

[Zantera]

LFR needs to have quicker queues though...

The problem is there's almost no upsides to LFR so you get fewer people running it. I remember the good old days when the 'call to arms'-cache could give you some rare mounts and it gave nice incentive to actually do it once in a while which helped with queue times. They've also taken away titanforging, the raid quest (you would get every week or two from mission board), Legion had legendaries that could drop there and both WoD and MoP had the legendary quest chains that gave LFR some purpose.

You gotta add something to make it a bit more appealing I think. And no i'm not talking about better gear rewards from LFR, but something else. Right now it only exists for the people who are new or don't know any better, and the people who would rather sit through 5 hours of doing 3 (or 4) wings in LFR instead of clearing all the mythic 0s for more gear in shorter time.

[ClassicPeon]

Dont need to do any big changes. Just remove loot drops from lfr. Or have it drop like random items from the hc dungeon loot table.

LFR doesnt warrant getting gear better then hc dungeons anyway.

Shouldnt be part of the gearing process at all.

This way people can still "do it to watch the bosses and such"