PvP is the sole reason why Gameplay Customization still exists in this game. Wrong?

[Big Thanks]

Not OP but I think I can help him explain because I think I get what he is saying.

In pvp you have a unique playstyle, and you can build you spec around that. In pve, you don't really have an option for a playstyle, you choose the best spec and you learn your rotation and you follow that rotation.

In pvp if you are a defensive player you can build your characters spec around this and choose talents that compliment this, if you are aggressive you can do that same. This option isn't really realistic in pve.

He is going to tell you "but there is an optimal way"

Watch it happen

I love how much you understand and in fact...i never thought about what you just said...really helpful. Thanks

[arkanon]

Not OP but I think I can help him explain because I think I get what he is saying.

In pvp you have a unique playstyle, and you can build you spec around that. In pve, you don't really have an option for a playstyle, you choose the best spec and you learn your rotation and you follow that rotation.

In pvp if you are a defensive player you can build your characters spec around this and choose talents that compliment this, if you are aggressive you can do that same. This option isn't really realistic in pve.

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Ok and I get that you have to option to change your spec according to those scenarios, but this is what he means by the 'illusion' of choice. If you are pveing and you know whats best in the certain situation then you really don't have a choice do you? You know what you are going to pick whether you like it or not because it's the best.

In pvp, one option may be better for you while a different option is better for someone else, because you two could be playing differently.

When you have to say "I'm not op" you are gonna set off some alarm bells. Lol.

[Big Thanks]

When you have to say "I'm not op" you are gonna set off some alarm bells. Lol.

Im just going to report you at this point.
You are here to bait people into using direct personal attacks on you to get banned.

This is unnacceptable

I never reported anyone in my life. This is my first time.

[Mosha]

He is going to tell you "but there is an optimal way"

Watch it happen

Well if he does and he is talking about pvp then he would be wrong. Yeah sure there may be an optimal way for a person who is literally the very best at the game, but a different option may be 'optimal' for your playstyle instead.

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When you have to say "I'm not op" you are gonna set off some alarm bells. Lol.

What are you on about?

[arkanon]

Not OP but I think I can help him explain because I think I get what he is saying.

In pvp you have a unique playstyle, and you can build you spec around that. In pve, you don't really have an option for a playstyle, you choose the best spec and you learn your rotation and you follow that rotation.

In pvp if you are a defensive player you can build your characters spec around this and choose talents that compliment this, if you are aggressive you can do that same. This option isn't really realistic in pve.

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Ok and I get that you have to option to change your spec according to those scenarios, but this is what he means by the 'illusion' of choice. If you are pveing and you know whats best in the certain situation then you really don't have a choice do you? You know what you are going to pick whether you like it or not because it's the best.

In pvp, one option may be better for you while a different option is better for someone else, because you two could be playing differently.

Wrong. Hard counters exist. You spec based on what you are facing, however, let's be completely honest: op doest set foot in arena or rbg where you absolutely need to stick close to the meta. You are free to run around in a random bgs with any terrible spec you like, just like you can in LFR, which is all op has ever done (she has admitted this multiple times).

[Kumorii]

Not OP but I think I can help him explain because I think I get what he is saying.

In pvp you have a unique playstyle, and you can build you spec around that. In pve, you don't really have an option for a playstyle, you choose the best spec and you learn your rotation and you follow that rotation.

In pvp if you are a defensive player you can build your characters spec around this and choose talents that compliment this, if you are aggressive you can do that same. This option isn't really realistic in pve.

Well, there is choice. I for one played Pyroclasm for quite a long time and I got geared tailored for that playstyle and I did well. Pyroclasm at that time was comparable to the meteor spec.

Then we have mages who play frost because they want to, rarely seen arcane but I haven't met one who say they even enjoy the spec so people avoid it because not only does it perform badly but it just plays badly. They have a choice as well. Don't mistake that there is an optimal way to play means you have to always make that choice. It's up to you as a player if you want to go with what you like or what performs better.

You can tailor your PvE experience around your playstyle, which is why some people play X class and Y spec instead of Z class and B spec, because it's more in line with their personal preference. People talk about choice in PvE as people just pick the class and spec that's best and no one will ever deviate from that. The fact that we have classes and specs across the board with a few exceptions shows that CHOICE is very much alive in PvE. People choose to play what they enjoy. Often enjoyment is also affected by performance. You can go PvP and play a meme spec or build as much as you want, but many will not find it enjoyable if they continuously lose because of it. So they look up a guide that suits their playstyle to get hints on how to perform and what to pick etc etc.

It's the same thing in it's core. Only thing that varies are the degrees of it. PvP no doubt have more choices than PvE...however that doesn't nullify the fact that PvE have customization choices as well. I'm willing to be that I can find the current meta setup for arena in any bracket including talents and gear. It's however up to you if you want to follow it or not.

[Mosha]

Wrong. Hard counters exist. You spec based on what you are facing, however, let's be completely honest: op doest set foot in arena or rbg where you absolutely need to stick close to the meta. You are free to run around in a random bgs with any terrible spec you like, just like you can in LFR, which is all op has ever done (she has admitted this multiple times).

What? You do understand that hard counters and you choosing your talents based on your playstyle have literally nothing to do with each other correct?

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Well, there is choice. I for one played Pyroclasm for quite a long time and I got geared tailored for that playstyle and I did well. Pyroclasm at that time was comparable to the meteor spec.

Then we have mages who play frost because they want to, rarely seen arcane but I haven't met one who say they even enjoy the spec so people avoid it because not only does it perform badly but it just plays badly. They have a choice as well. Don't mistake that there is an optimal way to play means you have to always make that choice. It's up to you as a player if you want to go with what you like or what performs better.

You can tailor your PvE experience around your playstyle, which is why some people play X class and Y spec instead of Z class and B spec, because it's more in line with their personal preference. People talk about choice in PvE as people just pick the class and spec that's best and no one will ever deviate from that. The fact that we have classes and specs across the board with a few exceptions shows that CHOICE is very much alive in PvE. People choose to play what they enjoy. Often enjoyment is also affected by performance. You can go PvP and play a meme spec or build as much as you want, but many will not find it enjoyable if they continuously lose because of it. So they look up a guide that suits their playstyle to get hints on how to perform and what to pick etc etc.

It's the same thing in it's core. Only thing that varies are the degrees of it. PvP no doubt have more choices than PvE...however that doesn't nullify the fact that PvE have customization choices as well. I'm willing to be that I can find the current meta setup for arena in any bracket including talents and gear. It's however up to you if you want to follow it or not.

Thank you for describing what the illusion of choice is lol. Everything you just said reinforces what I'm saying.

[arkanon]

What? You do understand that hard counters and you choosing your talents based on your playstyle have literally nothing to do with each other correct?

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Thank you for describing what the illusion of choice is lol. Everything you just said reinforces what I'm saying.

Running a sub optimal spec in pve is an illusion of choice. Running a sub optimal spec in pvp is customisation. Gold.

[Mosha]

Running a sub optimal spec in pve is an illusion of choice. Running a sub optimal spec in pvp is customisation. Gold.

I don't know if you missed this or not, but as I started talking about retail I was discussing talents choices specifically. But sure bud.

[arkanon]

I don't know if you missed this or not, but as I started talking about retail I was discussing talents choices specifically. But sure bud.

Running sub optimal talents (spec) in pve is an illusion of choice. Running sub optimal talents (spec) in pvp is customisation. Gold.

[Kumorii]

Thank you for describing what the illusion of choice is lol. Everything you just said reinforces what I'm saying.

Nice non-argument...

[united]

The salty people in this thread make me laugh. Stop trying to pretend like OP is wrong, he’s not.

As a shadow priest my talents are cookie cutter. If I don’t choose the designated slots I’ll be losing out on tons of DPS in PvE.

Maybe instead of arguing with the OP over something we all know is true ask the devs to make PvE not boring asf. For once. That’s all.

[arkanon]

The salty people in this thread make me laugh. Stop trying to pretend like OP is wrong, he’s not.

As a shadow priest my talents are cookie cutter. If I don’t choose the designated slots I’ll be losing out on tons of DPS in PvE.

Maybe instead of arguing with the OP over something we all know is true ask the devs to make PvE not boring asf. For once. That’s all.

You run the same spec on all fights? And in m+? Yikes.

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Nice non-argument...

Hang in there, it gets more delusional from here.

[united]

You run the same spec on all fights? And in m+? Yikes.

I don’t raid. I’ve expressed my opinions here before on raiding being the worst part of the game.

And yes, Spriest is very static on the “choices” we can make for our talents, Azerite traits, and essences for content that actually matter (not world quests) This is just one example.

[Mosha]

Running sub optimal talents (spec) in pve is an illusion of choice. Running sub optimal talents (spec) in pvp is customisation. Gold.

Nope not at all. There is very few 'sub optimal' talents in pvp, there are actual choices you can make depending on your playstyle. Look at MWM for example. The highest 'skill capped' ability is ring of peace, most high level players use it and use it well and can even use it offensively. But if that's not your playstyle and you prefer to have a long CC chain setup you can choose song of chiji to chain your ccs, and if you don't want that and just choose tiger tail sweep to decrease the CD on your main cc and the range to catch as many people as possible.

That's what you aren't understanding. Talents that only have one optimal choice in pve may have 3 options in pvp, and most of the time you have WAY more room to use the talents you want in pvp to compliment your playstyle. There is no playstyle in pve

[arkanon]

I don’t raid. I’ve expressed my opinions here before on raiding being the worst part of the game.

And yes, Spriest is very static on the “choices” we can make for our talents, Azerite traits, and essences for content that actually matter (not world quests) This is just one example.

And how about m+?

[Mosha]

Nice non-argument...

I don't need to argue what you said because you literally just agreed and reinforced what I said and you didn't even know it. Why would I argue against someone who just basically agreed with me?

[Kumorii]

I don't need to argue what you said because you literally just agreed and reinforced what I said and you didn't even know it. Why would I argue against someone who just basically agreed with me?

Me -> "Hey there is choice, this is why"
you -> "you agree with me"

Nice, so we establish there is choice in PvE. Flipped your silly non-argument around in a heartbeat.

Come back when you actually want to discuss something.

[arkanon]

Nope not at all. There is very few 'sub optimal' talents in pvp, there are actual choices you can make depending on your playstyle. Look at MWM for example. The highest 'skill capped' ability is ring of peace, most high level players use it and use it well and can even use it offensively. But if that's not your playstyle and you prefer to have a long CC chain setup you can choose song of chiji to chain your ccs, and if you don't want that and just choose tiger tail sweep to decrease the CD on your main cc and the range to catch as many people as possible.

That's what you aren't understanding. Talents that only have one optimal choice in pve may have 3 options in pvp, and most of the time you have WAY more room to use the talents you want in pvp to compliment your playstyle. There is no playstyle in pve

You realise EXACTLY the same applies for pve, right?

[Big Thanks]

Running sub optimal talents (spec) in pve is an illusion of choice. Running sub optimal talents (spec) in pvp is customisation. Gold.

This is a very nice argument (coming from you out of all places...)

So Blizzard developers were wrong after all?

Because one thing is for sure, the PvP'ers running with sub optimal specs are having fun with them and some even have 2500 rating with TANK specs in arena which are completely suboptimal.

So who is wrong?