PvP is the sole reason why Gameplay Customization still exists in this game. Wrong?

[Mosha]

Ok then lets play shifting goalposts. Please provide a guide that shows my plethora of options as muti, hell, lets make it spicy, provide a guide that doesn't say that Smoke bomb and System shock are mandatory (that's full 2/3s of my pvp options, for the folks at home).
This should be pretty easy since the more talents I say are mandatory the easier it would be to prove I'm wrong (unless they are mandatory).

I didn't shift the goalpost at all you thought I said something that I didn't LOL

Please provide a guide that shows my plethora of options as muti, hell, lets make it spicy, provide a guide that doesn't say that Smoke bomb and System shock are mandatory

Wait who is moving goalposts? Do you seriously still not understand what I just said to you? Holy shit dude you are so ignorant lol

[Big Thanks]

You are correct, there is no solution and there will always a right answer. The real goal is minimizing "wrong" into just being suboptimal.

It's not even a matter of WoW design as this issue has been around since Vanilla.

I think PvP gets a bit of a pass on the "optimal" side because there are multiple ways to play, ie aggressive, defensive, and talents can be tailored to better fit your playstyle.

PvE doesn't have a playstyle, so there is always one correct answer and if you are lucky a couple of not as harmful answers.

Thank you StillMcfuu, i share the same opinion.
I didnt say what you just said about WoW's PvE (was avoiding it) because i KNEW it would create a Red VS Blue fight...on top of an already ongoing fight.
But yes, i think so to be the case and there is nothing that can be done to change WoW's PvE nature.

But plz, i beg, dont make the entire game without "gameplay customization" OR with ONLY the gimmick to change talents before pullz.
At this point in time...gameplay customization would be dead.

Officially dead

And thats my only fear

[Saltysquidoon]

I didn't shift the goalpost at all you thought I said something that I didn't LOL
Wait who is moving goalposts? Do you seriously still not understand what I just said to you? Holy shit dude you are so ignorant lol

Let's try this again, put up or shut up time. Link a guide that shows the plethora of choices muti has in pvp.

While you're finding that link you might want to ponder this. What is the meaningful gameplay distinction between picking a talent on ST or AoE and picking a talent based on if you're facing a caster comp or a melee comp?

[Frolk]

Another QUALITY thread by OP, i always enjoying reading these shitshows.

[Big Thanks]

Let's try this again, put up or shut up time. Link a guide that shows the plethora of choices muti has in pvp.

While you're finding that link you might want to ponder this. What is the meaningful gameplay distinction between picking a talent on ST or AoE and picking a talent based on if you're facing a caster comp or a melee comp?

Tell how is smoke bomb not useless for

In a lot of Duels
Solo World PvP
Multi fight without ranged or healer enemies

Also...LOL at asking a "plethora" of customziation options....IN World of Warcraft! LoooooL.
There is no water in the desert.

[Mosha]

Let's try this again, put up or shut up time. Link a guide that shows the plethora of choices muti has in pvp.

While you're finding that link you might want to ponder this. What is the meaningful gameplay distinction between picking a talent on ST or AoE and picking a talent based on if you're facing a caster comp or a melee comp?

Compared to pve yeah there are for most classes. Once again, you clearly didn't understand what I told you, get back to me once you understand it.

[StillMcfuu]

Thank you StillMcfuu, i share the same opinion.
I didnt say what you just said about WoW's PvE (was avoiding it) because i KNEW it would create a Red VS Blue fight...on top of an already ongoing fight.
But yes, i think so to be the case and there is nothing that can be done to change WoW's PvE nature.

But plz, i beg, dont make the entire game without "gameplay customization" OR with ONLY the gimmick to change talents before pullz.
At this point in time...gameplay customization would be dead.

Officially dead

And thats my only fear

I think there could be ways to create different playstyles, but it would require raising the skill system and not making it an rpg anymore for the most part. I can see having invulnerability frames on attacks, situational attacks, etc... but youd have to balance that with strong defensive, and other options for turtling or mobile gameplay.

I dont think it would be wildly difficult to do, but it would fundamentally change the game.

[Recovery]

I think blizzard should just create a year round tournament realm that becomes the "pvp realm". If you have a character at max level, you can created a max level character on that realm that can be used exclusively for PVP. You can balance it however it needs to be since it wouldnt effect pve at all and people could play on both realms if they wish to. Achievements are shared between both just like theyre shared between characters and realms already. IF you get something exclusive such as Glad title or mount, it would only transfer over to a character of the same class or something along those lines.

I feel like if there were separate balancing like this, it could open doors for many choices in both pvp and pve.

[GreenJesus]

Not you again with a pointless thread.

I'm gonna counter your grade S+ research into the subject with one simple question:

Can you name a single one week period in the game's life cycle that did not have a "best build" for a given situation for any given spec?
You are so desperate for your idea of "customization" you fail to notice that EVER since Classic the game has been min-maxed to the absolute core.
Look up a Classic raid team right now. Then look at their talents.

Oh, you can spend 41 or so point in a talent system?
That talent system was 5 times more set in stone than talents today.
Nowadays people actually change their talents when they adjust for any piece of content.

Calm the f down already.

Even in cata, as a holy paladin you would basically just replace the Light of Dawn talent point with some passive in arenas (since it wasn't useful unless you had more than 3 targets and it was at the very end of the tree) and then switch back to LoD again in PVE. You would MAYBE change around like 3-4 points I think. There was barely any customization back then.

[Nzx]

This is getting tiring. OP, didn't you say 500 times already you are moving on?

We get it, the game does not suit your particular interests and tastes. Give it a rest, will ya? You're literally like some fucking vengeful ex, are you going to hound us with this crap for years too now like some other weirdos we have prowling these forums with same broken record crap for years?

Let me tell you something simple - this is how this game works, for years, since the very beginning. Nobody is going to flip it head on, just because Shadoowpunk wants WoW to become D&D and all the players suddenly do a 180 flip mentality-wise.

Yes, vast majority of customization comes from looks, titles and class/spec choice - you don't get to fiddle much with internals of that spec itself, exactly because it's futile - it's not a single player game and in the end if you want to see any sort of more challenging group content - you will do what everyone does, because it's optimal way to do shit ingame and people naturally gravitate to that.

That's how WoW works for 15 years now. It's not going to change, so give it a rest.

There really is a Zandare post in the first half of any thread on these forums that should have been the end of said thread.

I can't imagine any other hobby where the "cool" way to engage in that hobby is to sit around and complain about it all the time and tell a whole bunch of other people who don't know you that you hate it and how the rules need to be completely changed in order for it to be fun. Like imagine shooting hoops with random people and spending the entire time complaining to them about how the basketball is too large and needs to be made smaller or how everyone should be forced to play in whatever shoes they wear to work in order to give them a "meaningful choice" between looking professional or suffering through their after-work activities in pain.

OT: I'm tired of people saying this game needs to be "more like an RPG". The attempted logic is always that there is RPG in "MMORPG" therefore WoW must be exactly like Skyrim - but I really don't think many people sat around in 2004 and thought "hmm I really want to play a new role-playing game, which one should I buy? Oh World of Warcraft, that looks fun, let me download gigabyte after gigabyte of patches and deal with shitty server infrastructure in order to role play". I think the vast majority of us were far more interested in the MMO part, thinking "holy shit you can actually see other people in this? there's a whole world? what's an instance? this looks awesome".

If their attempt at restricting people from actually engaging with all of the game's content via locking down Covenant choices continues as a design decision, I will just quit, and so will many people who play the game the same way I do - but I doubt any of us will come to the MMOC forums and make thousands of posts per year about how much we don't like it.

[Big Thanks]

I found a thesis about the topic if you are interested in a fun read...

Meaningful Choice as Expression
of Creativity in Gameplay

DISCUSSION
Although only focusing on creativity within gameplay, and only focusing on two
games, this analysis has synthesized six different types of creative play. Each type
enables the player to express his creativity in a different way, and some are more
associated with paidia play, while others thrive in ludus play. The types are as
follows:
- (1) Personal Customization: allows the player to modify the aesthetics of game
components, allowing creativity through a huge number of combinations of
multiple elements that can produce original outcome.
- (2) Gameplay Customization: allows the player to craft his in-game approach
to attain the objective goals of a game, enabling creativity by facilitating a
variety of play styles.
- (3) Entertaining Performance: allows players to express their creativity and
themselves by giving extensive control over a character or component and
giving clear feedback for those actions, enabling a player to assume different
roles and ‘act’ in-game.
- (4) Boasting Performance: allows players to express their creativity, identity
and status in their play-style by giving extensive control over a character or
component and giving clear feedback for those actions, enabling a player to
assume different roles and ‘act’ in-game, while still steering them to pursue
the objective goal of a game.
- (5) Player Creation: allowing players to create from scratch by giving them
access to a wide variety of components that can be positioned and combined,
and, optionally, also tools to create new components.
49
- (6) Creative Strategy: give players a large amount of Meaningful Choice in
pursuing the objective goal of the game, allowing a player to express his
creativity in a unique playing style through strategic choices that impact
consequent gameplay options and choices later in the game.

CONCLUSION
All in all, creativity as a whole, and particularly in games, remains an
interesting subject. To return to Yu-Kai Chou’s assertion that the Empowerment of
Creativity and Feedback is an ideal motivational drive for videogames, and
consequently, any other type of activity

For the full read search in google "Meaningful Choice as Expression of Creativity in Gameplay"

[arkanon]

I found a study about the topic if you are interested in a fun read...

Meaningful Choice as Expression
of Creativity in Gameplay





For the full read search in google "Meaningful Choice as Expression of Creativity in Gameplay"

Its not a study, its a thesis. Its just someones opinion on the topic, using an NBA game and Little Big Planet 2 as the basis. FYI:

A dissertation is more like an academic book, and a thesis is the same as an academic research paper. A dissertation consists of theories and arguments based on original research. On the other hand, data collected in a thesis is based on a hypothetical analysis of contents.

Its also not related to the discussion at hand - as expected all you wanted was a PvP vs PvE thread, so you could explain how skilled pvp is (even though you dont do any competitive pvp at all) and how easy PvE is (even though you dont step foot outside of lfr).

[Big Thanks]

Its not a study, its a thesis. Its just someones opinion on the topic, using an NBA game and Little Big Planet 2 as the basis. FYI:

A dissertation is more like an academic book, and a thesis is the same as an academic research paper. A dissertation consists of theories and arguments based on original research. On the other hand, data collected in a thesis is based on a hypothetical analysis of contents.

Its also not related to the discussion at hand - as expected all you wanted was a PvP vs PvE thread, so you could explain how skilled pvp is (even though you dont do any competitive pvp at all) and how easy PvE is (even though you dont step foot outside of lfr).

Thanks for clearing that up, i changed the post.

I dont like to think this is a PvP VS PvE thread

If i was hold hostage and tortured into answering the question "Whats your agenda here your son of a bitch!?"
I would say it was an attempt to raise awareness about "Gameplay Customization" and its possible death in this game.

Covenants are an attempt to keep it alive...but the community is trying to kill it.

Thread is a critique to the PvE community and Blizz developers who reached the conclusion "Gameplay Customization" can be watered down to "changeable talents on the fly before a pull"

[TheLucky1]

snip

How do you know that "most" players in pve just go by the hardcore mathed out stuff? i have helped in a lot of normal/heroic guilds and a ton of players do not go cookie cutter but go with what is easy to play or "cool".
I'd argue most players do not go full cookie cutter.

Also i think if Blizzard would rework talents so that each has it's niche instead of trying to make an aoe row, an single target row, etc. it would maybe not give a choice but freshen your class up everytime you have a different encounter since for optimal results you'd have to change everytime and your class plays a bit different.

Besides that, after stuff like the azerite disaster, corruption disaster and pvpVendorGate, i'd say Blizz truly doesn't give a damn about PvP, not enough that they would base talents on that for sure.

- - - Updated - - -

Covenants are an attempt to keep it alive...but the community is trying to kill it.

Thread is a critique to the PvE community and Blizz developers who reached the conclusion "Gameplay Customization" can be watered down to "changeable talents on the fly before a pull"

They would have needed to kill logs (at least all the dmg parts), kill dpsmeter addons and also randomize procs/dmg every week a little bit to kill theorycrafting by trial and error to achieve that, since bc.
I like your sentiment, it's often the hyperbolic community that kills customization like that since it's impossible to make something feel/play different a player choice and still have everything balanced.

[Saltysquidoon]

Covenants are an attempt to keep it alive...but the community is trying to kill it.

Thread is a critique to the PvE community and Blizz developers who reached the conclusion "Gameplay Customization" can be watered down to "changeable talents on the fly before a pull"

Wait... what?

How pvp is the only thing keeping customisation alive in WoW (as you posited) if PvP has more Variance then PvE?

If gameplay customisation means 'permanent choices' (like you want covenants to be) as opposed to watered-down talents you change on the pull. Wouldn't that make pvp a terrible example of 'meaningful gameplay customisation' because you change your pvp talents more often then you change your pve talents (and you press more different buttons in PvP then you do in PvE because of that same variance)?

[Big Thanks]

How do you know that "most" players in pve just go by the hardcore mathed out stuff? i have helped in a lot of normal/heroic guilds and a ton of players do not go cookie cutter but go with what is easy to play or "cool".
I'd argue most players do not go full cookie cutter.
.

In an interview with a Blizzard developer...he even was aggresive on the answer...and flat out said "You're wrong. Next!" when someone told him "there werent cookie cutter builds"

The full read here about the design philosophies behind the talent system we have today:
https://pt.wowhead.com/news=198422/d...e-talent-trees

- - - Updated - - -

Wait... what?

How pvp is the only thing keeping customisation alive in WoW (as you posited) if PvP has more Variance then PvE?

If gameplay customisation means 'permanent choices' (like you want covenants to be) as opposed to watered-down talents you change on the pull. Wouldn't that make pvp a terrible example of 'meaningful gameplay customisation' because you change your pvp talents more often then you change your pve talents (and you press more different buttons in PvP then you do in PvE because of that same variance)?

Could you explain better plz...i dont quite understand the point.

Do you mean PvP'ers change talents all the time before an arena depending on the comp?

[TheLucky1]

In an interview with a Blizzard developer...he even was aggresive on the answer...and flat out said "You're wrong. Next!" when someone told him "there werent cookie cutter builds"

The full read here about the design philosophies behind the talent system we have today:
https://pt.wowhead.com/news=198422/d...e-talent-trees

- - - Updated - - -



Coul you explain better plz...i dont quite understand the point.

Do you mean PvP'ers change talents all the time before an arena depending on the comp?

That wasn't my point? Yes you can math out everything for every situation, doesn't mean players will always do that, most players actually don't.

[Big Thanks]

That wasn't my point? Yes you can math out everything for every situation, doesn't mean players will always do that, most players actually don't.

Yes, my bad, the closest thing i could find was this:

Saying that the people who do know about the best build is because they found it online and not because they tested everything and came to the conclusion.

"I like being better than noobs."

It was surprising and a bit disappointing at how frequently we saw this argument. The players in question fully admit that they don't experiment to find the best build. They accept the cookie cutter spec that is offered from a website, but then they use the fact that they knew the cookie cutter to mock players who don't. Intimate knowledge of game mechanics certainly is and should be a component of skill. But knowing how to Google "4.3 Shadow spec" doesn't automatically make you a better player. Sorry, but I’m just going to dismiss this one as an illegitimate concern.

[Saltysquidoon]

Could you explain better plz...i dont quite understand the point.

Do you mean PvP'ers change talents all the time before an arena depending on the comp?

Well, my understanding re: covenants is you don't want people to min-max and permanent choices are 'saving the rpg genre' and for the greater good of 'gameplay customisation'.

Except in this thread you said PvP is the best example of gameplay customisation. But PvP has less permanent choices than even PvE, so wouldn't that make it the worst example of 'gamplay customisation'?

My point is you seem to be arguing two opposite points at the same time.

[Big Thanks]

But PvP has less permanent choices than even PvE, so wouldn't that make it the worst example of 'gamplay customisation'?

How so?
How does PvP have less permanent customizations than PvE?

Except in this thread you said PvP is the best example of gameplay customisation.

No no
Im trying to argue:

"The PvE community evolved into a min maxing machine, to the point of even customization options (talents) evolved into a system to accommodate min maxing.
This makes PvP the only reason to still have Gameplay Customization in the game, at this point"

And my fear was...this min max mentality, if it kept going...it would kill customization in the entire game