How can loot even work without warforging/similar systems?

[ClassicPeon]

Because people didn't hope for procs, they just got it quickly and then played the game. If you had done some M+ with friends and got random proc, it could have been slightly better than your item. Nobody farmed for TF.

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Not really, the main difference is that once you acquire specific piece of gear in SL you won't be interested in going to that dungeon ever again. With TF you can get upgrade from any content - but realistically speaking just dungeons and raids in general. Without WF/TF you will only run things that awards you upgrade meaning some instances will become completely useless to you.

So you take everything i say and just say "not really". "Not really" what? What exactly did i say that wasnt true?

You do realize SL will have scaling m+ aswell right?

You also realise that any content has an ilvl cap on it right?

[Sunnydee]

I still believe that one day they will do so if you have an item that is your "biS", you can loot 1 or 2 more of the same, head to a vendor and upgrade this item to "warforged" or something, sorta merging 2 of the same item to get an upgraded version, lil bit like how you could do in SWP.

[apelsinjuice]

Having a bis list to farm in a couple of weeks seems so much worse than anything wf/tf related personally. It is so much easier now to get enough gear to do all the content in the game than before while still being able to get upgrades down the line. People like to blame wf/tf for whatever the real reasons are they are not at the top of meters or that being the reason they are benched. There's still gonna be the exact same people complaining about needing to get their bis trinket from this very specific piece of content they either don't like to do or just can't do and that will be the reason they don't feel good playing the game.

The version of the game where you have a bis list just feels super boring to me and it becomes more about loot not dropping than at least having a chance of getting an upgrade. Having the exact same gear as every other player of my spec doesn't quite sound exciting. Why have gear at all at this point?

thats how the game worked for 10+ years and nobody had a problem with it until Blizzard decided to add a slot machine gambling system trying to get people to play and stay subscribed longer

[ClassicPeon]

Since you mentioned gambling..well..here it is. Folks like different stuff.

I wouldn't even say having super random things is "good". Works for some, works for others. Works also in different context. Some drops are an have forever been super random (in the way of being rare) - items, mounts...stuff like that.

There are arguments (and they have been made) for TF / WF for and against them. Just because they don't work but work for somebody else doesn't make them right or wrong.

Devs thought it was a good idea for 3 or so x-pacs (as with reforging along it), some hated it, some were neutral, some liked it...now they moved away from the system. And the caravan that upholds the signs with "Look there, a feature that will kill the game" is already moving on to Covenant abilities.

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Yet somebody has the time to run the same boss / dungeon over and over again hoping for their missing loot that won't drop off the normal loot table and help friends or do it for the hell of it?

The funny thing is that what made them change their mind wasnt TF/WF. It was corruption.

And the even funnier thing is corruption is a better system. Its just overtuned or it should have more of a gameplay facter rather then being passive extra damage.

[Devilyaki]

Going to get a bit boring I think. Might as well add tier sets back it at this point.

[Kumorii]

thats how the game worked for 10+ years and nobody had a problem with it until Blizzard decided to add a slot machine gambling system trying to get people to play and stay subscribed longer

Why do people keep saying ludicrous things such as "Nobody"? You might not had a problem with it, your friends might not have had a problem with it. Did everyone liked it and thought it couldn't be improved upon? Hell no, that's crazy talk. No system is perfect for everyone.

I personally didn't like the badge system. I personally don't like that dungeons becomes useless after you gain your piece from it etc etc.
Fairly sure Blizzard said that they found that people stopped doing content and playing less due to not needing gear from various content quite quickly... which results in players playing less. Playing less is not an indication of a good system. If getting BiS were so powerful people should've played more after they get it, but they don't.

[apelsinjuice]

Why do people keep saying ludicrous things such as "Nobody"? You might not had a problem with it, your friends might not have had a problem with it. Did everyone liked it and thought it couldn't be improved upon? Hell no, that's crazy talk. No system is perfect for everyone.

I personally didn't like the badge system. I personally don't like that dungeons becomes useless after you gain your piece from it etc etc.
Fairly sure Blizzard said that they found that people stopped doing content and playing less due to not needing gear from various content quite quickly... which results in players playing less. Playing less is not an indication of a good system. If getting BiS were so powerful people should've played more after they get it, but they don't.

people also stop playing when the clear the raid in LFR because they feel "done" with the game, so they only subscribe for a few weeks each patch, thats the whole reason blizzard try to timegate LFR super hard now, people stop playing for 100 different reasons

[Dommie530]

I’m not sure either, but thats because of mythic+ and its endless capacity of providing items right left and center. As long as such systems are in place its difficult to make loot just be loot

[Kumorii]

people also stop playing when the clear the raid in LFR because they feel "done" with the game, so they only subscribe for a few weeks each patch, thats the whole reason blizzard try to timegate LFR super hard now, people stop playing for 100 different reasons

Bingo. Which means people quit over the looting system "nobody complained about".

[Mx343]

That really doesn't work the expansions that didn't had forges people would be gone for months even over a year sometimes it's going to backfire bigtime soon.

Well titanforging also didn't stop people from unsubbing...at least not me.
I know people they only log in for raid and skip the whole M+ because the got only crap out of the chest.
So with the tower and m+ and hopefully 4 good covenant story arcs I personally see no reason to unsub because forging/corruption is not in the game.
I would say it's a personal thing, I liked BC and I never did more than heroic dungeons, kara and zul'aman and had more than enough to do.

That you get a shit ton of items in BFA is maybe nice for gearing up alts, but on the other hand you have other stupid mechanics in the game which needs to slow you down (hello azerit gear and essences).

If you get less gear in SL than you probably need the same time of amount of get the BIS than current but you don't need to do the hamster wheel for forging items.
If if it's to slow for you nobody stops you from running 24/7 m+ to get all the BIS dungeon items.

[bowlink]

What to do when your BiS. Without the random upgrade slot machine

1: Wait for next raid patch
2: wait for next expansion
3: play an alt
4: level a profession on an alt
5: do transmog and mount runs
6: do pet battles
7: level a character on an RP server
8: read an (e)book instead
9: watch a series
10: do house work

[kamuimac]

realistically, they should treat m+ like plain mythics.

loot on first run for each dungeon(only if rolled), use a currency on any run after for that dungeon.
highest runned mythic+ counts towards weekly chest.
they basically need to limit m+ loot output.

true - but that will never happen because it would kill mythic + instantly

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What to do when your BiS. Without the random upgrade slot machine

1: Wait for next raid patch
2: wait for next expansion
3: play an alt
4: level a profession on an alt
5: do transmog and mount runs
6: do pet battles
7: level a character on an RP server
8: read an (e)book instead
9: watch a series
10: do house work

so basicly not play the game

if devs goal is to have people not playing wow - well they will for sure achieve exackly that

[Wakozi123]

Half of this thread sounds like whining. The typical "Now I have to do the hardest content in the game in order to get the best ilvl. I want to do LFR and have the same ilvl as mythic raiders... Blizzard wtf??!" The other half is people being actually concerned about what you do once you have absolutely BIS gear.

The answer to that question is rather simple. First of all: Getting absolute BIS gear has always been rather difficult and requires multiple weeks of mythic full clear raiding or multiple weeks of doing mythic+ high keys. Secondly: Once you have your absolute BIS gear you just wait for the next patch. Play a twink or other games in the meantime.

[kamuimac]

thats how the game worked for 10+ years and nobody had a problem with it until Blizzard decided to add a slot machine gambling system trying to get people to play and stay subscribed longer

ye .. nobody ...

also like nobody complaing about having nothing to do in game but logging in for raid and logging out

oh wait ... thats exackly why TF was introduced ...

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Half of this thread sounds like whining. The typical "Now I have to do the hardest content in the game in order to get the best ilvl. I want to do LFR and have the same ilvl as mythic raiders... Blizzard wtf??!" The other half is people being actually concerned about what you do once you have absolutely BIS gear.

The answer to that question is rather simple. First of all: Getting absolute BIS gear has always been rather difficult and requires multiple weeks of mythic full clear raiding or multiple weeks of doing mythic+ high keys. Secondly: Once you have your absolute BIS gear you just wait for the next patch. Play a twink or other games in the meantime.

i dare you to show even 1 post in this thread saying that

if anything its people saying - "i will have nothing to do in game so i will just stop playing fast"

[ClassicPeon]

Well titanforging also didn't stop people from unsubbing...at least not me.
1. I know people they only log in for raid and skip the whole M+ because the got only crap out of the chest.
So with the tower and m+ and hopefully 4 good covenant story arcs I personally see no reason to unsub because forging/corruption is not in the game.
I would say it's a personal thing, I liked BC and I never did more than heroic dungeons, kara and zul'aman and had more than enough to do.

2. That you get a shit ton of items in BFA is maybe nice for gearing up alts, but on the other hand you have other stupid mechanics in the game which needs to slow you down (hello azerit gear and essences).

If you get less gear in SL than you probably need the same time of amount of get the BIS than current but you don't need to do the hamster wheel for forging items.
If if it's to slow for you nobody stops you from running 24/7 m+ to get all the BIS dungeon items.

Its actually the other way around.

1.
Nyalotha was setting records for low raid participation because people just did it once for achievement and then went back to grinding m+. THere was a disctinct lacking incentive to do the raid.

2. BFA is the worst expansions ever for catching up on alts. Essences, corruption neck level, cloak, cloak level. All adds up to one hell of a bad time on a new alt.

[InflaterMouse]

I've been wondering the same thing and honestly I don't know what are the upsides of removing WF/corruption. Less drops is a solution? I'm so looking forward to go weeks without weapon upgrade at all...

It was originally designed like this. You would use craft-able armor/weapons or drops from 5 mans until you got better. This system worked fine and kept people raiding current content for drops. Right this second, saving a few pieces from the last boss in the raid you could effectively skip the raid on heroic/mythic and come out with almost as powerful gear from just doing mythics. A slower, progressive gearing system is much more rewarding and less RNG.

I mean we have tanks soloing current content, and full tank raids with game breaking gear that do 2-3 times the dps as top geared dps just from rng procs. That is absolutely fking stupid. Having earned good raid drops from weeks of farming heroic and mythic bosses successfully, you should get your BIS and not have to worry about RNG procs making it some how randomly better.

The more RNG they remove from the game, total game, all aspects the better the game will be.

[Yizu]

MoP challenge mode like rewards. Honestly i rather they make these high quality class specific transmog rewards than +5 ilvl loots.

Also why do you think grinding high keys for small incremental ilvl is what make people play? If anything its the thing that make them burn out of raiding. I rather have my guildies login raids and play other games with guildies, and only go ham on major patch.

[melzas]

MoP challenge mode like rewards. Honestly i rather they make these high quality class specific transmog and rewards than +5 ilvl.

Also why do you think grinding high keys for small incremental ilvl is what make people play? If anything its the thing that make them burn out of raiding. I rather have my guildies login raids and play other games with guildies.

How are these even comparable? +5 ilvl costs literally 0 development time, you can't compare it to anything that takes time to create, especially art assets.

[shade3891]

Shared loottable for all m+ dungeons? So your desired items can drop from any chest at the end of the dungeon.

Edit: give us keystones for previous raids. For example all BFA Raids except nylaotha. Push old raids with the guild

[Lurker1]

true - but that will never happen because it would kill mythic + instantly

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so basicly not play the game

if devs goal is to have people not playing wow - well they will for sure achieve exackly that

Funny thing is people think forges won't happen might not happen when it first comes out but sooner or later in some patch it will or something close to it well think corruptions but different name and flavor.People going to log out super early soon this is not good for the game.

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This is a thing im worried about since quite some time now, we know so far there will not be a warforging or similar system in SL.

However, how do they keep the incentive for mythic+ and raids once you got most of your important stuff up?

Love or hate it, the introduction of thunderforging in mop and the advancing of that system was a necessary evil because otherwise a lot of players would have been "done" and quit way too fast, creating problems not only for the devs but also raiding guilds.

Im not here to discuss wf/tf or if there could have been a better solution (dead horse), but how you guys think they'll handle it in SL, i can't imagine they'd just let it be like right now -20% drop chance on everything and call it a day.

M+ needs a longterm incentive.
First few bosses in a raid need a longterm incentive.
Casual, non-instanced content needs a longterm incentive.

I really don't want to go to the wod days and before where realisticaly im only motivated to do that one boss at some point because it's the only upgrade i could still get..

You can't and blizzard is going to have to nerf the drop rates and make them so low that some players might not even have full rare gear until a few months later they will go wtf f this and never come back until next expansion it happened alot back then without forges it will happen again in 2020+