Night Elves, Magic & the Arcane - Common Misconceptions & Things You Didn't Consider

[ravenmoon]

Checked it out - and it's neither here no there, there are specific things being focused on by each race - most of night elf region is forested, this doesn't mean they're not arcane wielders or arcane attuned and that magic isn't a core component of their race - you don't get more magical than wisps, and you are still the arcane birthed race and this aspect of yours is why every other elf race is magical. So because blood elves are still magic crazy, and Nightborne have only just realised what you've kn own for millennia, that balance is important - doesn't make you less magical or less arcane attuned.

.

I also noticed that Night elves, as well as humans aren't specified at being good at one particular thing - this is beacuse they are more versatile a race than groups like blood elves, Tauren, Draenei - who typically are very strong on 1 or 2 things, so you can say hah - Blood elves are described as mana suckers (thirsty for magic) - magic type isn't specified, but we know this about them.
@Aresk, @EnigmAddict They aren't shoe horning night elves into any one thing, and just because they give the forest side some additional love or more love doesn't mean all the other things about them concerning the arcane is now not true. May I remind you, 8.2, Legion's Azsuna and Suramar zones, as well as a 3rd of night elf activity and focus in cata was arcane based - this is not "ignoring" or making night elves the forest elf race.

night elves actually needed some key forest customisations, they also could use some key Highborne ones, but if we're fair, the existing NElf models now compared with what we got seemed a lot closer to the Highborne type.

[Mace]

wisps exists within the boundaries of nature magic, not arcane magic, you are mixing up two completely different things.

Night elves as a race dont wield arcane magic, the night elves mages only represent a small faction of the night elves as a whole.

Night elves wield arcane magic too. The number is not as large as those that don't and overall the practice is not as widespread remaining only within Highborne communities and the Moonguard. It is entirely inaccurate to say "night elves as a race don't wield arcane magic" when it is clear they do. We may be saying the same thing, but the way we phrased it means very different things.

[Piamonte]

Night elves wield arcane magic too. The number is not as large as those that don't and overall the practice is not as widespread remaining only within Highborne communities and the Moonguard. It is entirely inaccurate to say "night elves as a race don't wield arcane magic" when it is clear they do. We may be saying the same thing, but the way we phrased it means very different things.

semantics. The point is that its just a small faction of arcane wielding night elves.

[Mace]

semantics. The point is that its just a small faction of arcane wielding night elves.

True, of the whole. But for a race that size, their arcane wielding population is likely larger than the Nightborne.

Also it is worth noting that the number will also grow now the ban is lifted.. Night elves are naturally quite gifted in the arcane too, in addition to nature. So if you are not called to Elune, you will work that out as a mage/highborne.

It's also worth noting how arcanised their priesthood and druidism is. While druids don't handle the arcane sources for spell work, they do use arcane spells as their core is balance, between arcane and nature in the waking world it is a key part of them. Whiles we all know the priesthood handles arcane wielded from the stars and moon. That's the caster priesthood. Sentinels are a branch of the order though that are very martial - that's a different thing.

I just find people don't seem to know that Night elves are as gifted in the arcane as blood elves or Nightborne, they just have fewer people wielding it because until recently the largest group of them had banned it for the last 10k years, so not one of that group was using. Once the ban lifted though, and refugee Highborne from the city of Eldret'halas joined them, many night elves with that talent started training, including some who were Highborne 10k years ago but had stopped being so turning to druidism and other things upholding the ban.

All this simply means is that more night elves are wielding the arcane, that's all, and that night elves doing so are as talented and capable as blood elves or Nightborne - in fact since they'are more whole/healthy, and have naturally arcane attuned bodies in balance (unlike Nightborne who are out of balance and Blood elves who devolved slightly), I would put my bet on Night elf wielders - they are the original elf group.

However it's just not as big a thing amongst them, you're more likely to see forest lovers and users, unless you visit their city(ies).


I imagine a new night elf city on Highborne, gorgeous, beautiful night elven architecture like you see in Suramar or Zin'Azshari, but full of nature too, gardens, overflowing vines, parks, trees, animals and nature life abuzz in the city, even wild gods passing through - new location. Mount Hyjal, on the shores of the Well of Eternity with the big tree Nordrassil a symbol to the intertwined balance of nature and the arcane.

Most nelf land will be forested, and whie you may have small towns and cities, it's mostly nature reserve. There will be more night elven cities, I imagine the highborne would grow, and cities like Eldre'thalas would be restored, and they would push into less forested areas like Desolace and Azsuna - but there will be a balance.

[Piamonte]

True, of the whole. But for a race that size, their arcane wielding population is likely larger than the Nightborne.

Also it is worth noting that the number will also grow now the ban is lifted.. Night elves are naturally quite gifted in the arcane too, in addition to nature. So if you are not called to Elune, you will work that out as a mage/highborne.

It's also worth noting how arcanised their priesthood and druidism is. While druids don't handle the arcane sources for spell work, they do use arcane spells as their core is balance, between arcane and nature in the waking world it is a key part of them. Whiles we all know the priesthood handles arcane wielded from the stars and moon. That's the caster priesthood. Sentinels are a branch of the order though that are very martial - that's a different thing.

I just find people don't seem to know that Night elves are as gifted in the arcane as blood elves or Nightborne, they just have fewer people wielding it because until recently the largest group of them had banned it for the last 10k years, so not one of that group was using. Once the ban lifted though, and refugee Highborne from the city of Eldret'halas joined them, many night elves with that talent started training, including some who were Highborne 10k years ago but had stopped being so turning to druidism and other things upholding the ban.

All this simply means is that more night elves are wielding the arcane, that's all, and that night elves doing so are as talented and capable as blood elves or Nightborne - in fact since they'are more whole/healthy, and have naturally arcane attuned bodies in balance (unlike Nightborne who are out of balance and Blood elves who devolved slightly), I would put my bet on Night elf wielders - they are the original elf group.

However it's just not as big a thing amongst them, you're more likely to see forest lovers and users, unless you visit their city(ies).


I imagine a new night elf city on Highborne, gorgeous, beautiful night elven architecture like you see in Suramar or Zin'Azshari, but full of nature too, gardens, overflowing vines, parks, trees, animals and nature life abuzz in the city, even wild gods passing through - new location. Mount Hyjal, on the shores of the Well of Eternity with the big tree Nordrassil a symbol to the intertwined balance of nature and the arcane.

Most nelf land will be forested, and whie you may have small towns and cities, it's mostly nature reserve. There will be more night elven cities, I imagine the highborne would grow, and cities like Eldre'thalas would be restored, and they would push into less forested areas like Desolace and Azsuna - but there will be a balance.

you dont know any of that, everything you write is just speculation, you cant claim that "more night elves are wielding the arcane" because we just really dont know.

As for how much arcane they use, well yes, priests use arcane magic and druids as well, the point is that there is a cultural difference as to how each class aproach the arcane, using it in balance with nature as druids do is ok, asking for it to elune is also ok, using it to weave spells like a mage does, not so much.

[Aresk]

Checked it out - and it's neither here no there, there are specific things being focused on by each race - most of night elf region is forested, this doesn't mean they're not arcane wielders or arcane attuned and that magic isn't a core component of their race - you don't get more magical than wisps, and you are still the arcane birthed race and this aspect of yours is why every other elf race is magical. So because blood elves are still magic crazy, and Nightborne have only just realised what you've kn own for millennia, that balance is important - doesn't make you less magical or less arcane attuned.

The rulebook classifies Blood Elves as "thirsty for magic" while all they say about night elves is that they "may conquer Forest Regions at a cost of 1 token less than normal (a minimum of 1 token is still required). Each time the Night Elves conquer a Forest, they place a Wisp Wall token on it. A Wisp Wall counts as 1 token for defense and remains In Decline but is removed when the Region is conquered or emptied." Nightborne aren't even a race in the game, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. My whole point was that the game wasn't portraying Night Elves as a strictly magic race or emphasizing magic beyond the cover art, so people claiming that a 3rd party board game as an indicating that night elves are becoming a predominantly arcane race is faulty.

[Hellspawn]

I was just kidding

[Aresk]

I also noticed that Night elves, as well as humans aren't specified at being good at one particular thing - this is beacuse they are more versatile a race than groups like blood elves, Tauren, Draenei - who typically are very strong on 1 or 2 things, so you can say hah - Blood elves are described as mana suckers (thirsty for magic) - magic type isn't specified, but we know this about them.
@Aresk, @EnigmAddict They aren't shoe horning night elves into any one thing, and just because they give the forest side some additional love or more love doesn't mean all the other things about them concerning the arcane is now not true. May I remind you, 8.2, Legion's Azsuna and Suramar zones, as well as a 3rd of night elf activity and focus in cata was arcane based - this is not "ignoring" or making night elves the forest elf race.

night elves actually needed some key forest customisations, they also could use some key Highborne ones, but if we're fair, the existing NElf models now compared with what we got seemed a lot closer to the Highborne type.

I didn't say night elves had no arcane talent. I'm saying their mechanic benefit is focused on the forest aspects of the race. If I wanted to argue that night elves aren't arcane, I wouldn't hold up a third party game as my primary evidence of that. I'd emphasize a bunch of events in lore (imprisoning, exiling, or going to prolonged war with highborne in their various incarnations - night elf, high elf, and naga/satyr). If I really wanted to push that narrative, I'd handwave off the rejoining of the highborne in Cata as an excuse to make mages playable for their race and point to the lack of highborne seen since Cata outside of Mordent showing up in one warfront as to how the highborne are trivial to their race. I'd emphasize that all of the prominent night elves in Cataclysm questing were related to either defending Hyjal or destroying it, from Fandral to Malfurion to Leyara to Jarod. I'd point out that the Moon Guard introduced in Legion have not been seen since, indicating that they're not reintegrating into night elf society and staying as a separate organization. I could point out that despite the fact that the Vault of the Wardens is on the Broken Isles, the Shadow Wardens opted to keep high valued prisoners like Fandral in Kalimdor.

I am not trying to push that narrative, because all of those elements are hand-picked to only show a specific image of the night elves. I try to look at all night elf material when analyzing them, look at how these different aspects have changed over the ten thousand years since the Sundering, how they've interacted since the Shattering, the return to the Broken Isles, and the reemergence of Azshara. I look at how they've contributed to other races and organizations, both within the Alliance and beyond. I don't pick my favorite moments from the past and then try to push a narrative that they're working toward that, because frankly with a people in the midst of a crisis of faith, with vengeance still heavy in Tyrande's thoughts, with an uneasy truce between them and their nearest neighbors, and with the ravages of war still blighting their lands, the way forward isn't clear. They have a unique opportunity to shape themselves in any number of ways, and they haven't had any time to really heal from their scars in a way to predict what path that healing will go. The Long Vigil was a response to their arrogance and reckless use of magic, as well as their complacency in dealing with a vain queen. Their current path is a consequence of their willingness to tolerate other races near their lands and align with the Alliance; we could see a darkness emerge in their society that rivals the Forsaken after TFT.

[ravenmoon]

I didn't say night elves had no arcane talent. I'm saying their mechanic benefit is focused on the forest aspects of the race. If I wanted to argue that night elves aren't arcane, I wouldn't hold up a third party game as my primary evidence of that. I'd emphasize a bunch of events in lore (imprisoning, exiling, or going to prolonged war with highborne in their various incarnations - night elf, high elf, and naga/satyr). If I really wanted to push that narrative, I'd handwave off the rejoining of the highborne in Cata as an excuse to make mages playable for their race and point to the lack of highborne seen since Cata outside of Mordent showing up in one warfront as to how the highborne are trivial to their race. I'd emphasize that all of the prominent night elves in Cataclysm questing were related to either defending Hyjal or destroying it, from Fandral to Malfurion to Leyara to Jarod. I'd point out that the Moon Guard introduced in Legion have not been seen since, indicating that they're not reintegrating into night elf society and staying as a separate organization. I could point out that despite the fact that the Vault of the Wardens is on the Broken Isles, the Shadow Wardens opted to keep high valued prisoners like Fandral in Kalimdor.

I am not trying to push that narrative, because all of those elements are hand-picked to only show a specific image of the night elves. I try to look at all night elf material when analyzing them, look at how these different aspects have changed over the ten thousand years since the Sundering, how they've interacted since the Shattering, the return to the Broken Isles, and the reemergence of Azshara. I look at how they've contributed to other races and organizations, both within the Alliance and beyond. I don't pick my favorite moments from the past and then try to push a narrative that they're working toward that, because frankly with a people in the midst of a crisis of faith, with vengeance still heavy in Tyrande's thoughts, with an uneasy truce between them and their nearest neighbors, and with the ravages of war still blighting their lands, the way forward isn't clear. They have a unique opportunity to shape themselves in any number of ways, and they haven't had any time to really heal from their scars in a way to predict what path that healing will go. The Long Vigil was a response to their arrogance and reckless use of magic, as well as their complacency in dealing with a vain queen. Their current path is a consequence of their willingness to tolerate other races near their lands and align with the Alliance; we could see a darkness emerge in their society that rivals the Forsaken after TFT.

Wow, well I just got schooled.

Glad to see more people noticing these things and being honest about it.

I've been falling for too many red herrings gs and taking bait from people who obviously have an agenda, and dont care what the lore actually shows - and have gotten use to almost on reflex, responding the way I do, wasting my time in the process.

Anyway, thanks for replying.

The fate of the night elves is one I doubt I will witness, however I am glad that currently they still reflect the original vision. Their creators may change that, though I hoped they would instead make it fully realised in the game. But as long as they do great things, it would be a hit

[Beloren]

the blood elves literally are the highborne, though

they are the descendants of the entire group you worship so much

and they are, in fact, better than the highborne ever were, with a more arcane-centric culture, ten thousand years of study and practice, and a wider array of expertise. much like the nightborne have had quite a long time to study and improve since the highborne stopped being a thing that existed ten thousand years ago

only difference is, they no longer have purple skin, and they no longer have the well of eternity. your bias reflects in the former, and the actual difference that makes any damn difference reflects

I don't think everyone views it that way. Because the high elves are a race very separated from most night elf proven attributes and characteristics despite the similarities, they have many differences from actual night elven highborne. Raven did call them a Highborne race, but as the actual Highborne are a caste, and these have a lot of differences, it works- They're a very special elf sub-race.

OP views them as the group that makes connection to the night elves , most obvious even though I think they overplay the significance to the night elves and blizzards role for them which is shifting firmly to the forest elf side after a lot of Highborne stuff in Legion. They have the Nightborne for the Highborne stuff, seems a waste of time to do more on the night elves

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You have it all figured out, but what makes you think alliance fans will be happy wtih the horde shown the better stuff, and all the high magic of the night elves too instead of them?

I know what will solve this. Blizzard making the damn Nightborne neutral - then the Highborne can all move to Suramar, and they can build pre-sundering Kaldorei stuff together on the Broken isles in Suramar and Azsuna, and Val'sharah and CoEn serve as their druidic/priestly spots.

Although the capital is neutral, allegiance is left up to the Nightborne, some side with the horde b/c of hte blood elves, but most are interested in restoring the broken kaldorei civlization and don't like mixing with non-elven races.

Problem solved - broken isles becomes your Night elf highborne/nightborne civilization zone, accessible by both factions, Kalimdor your foresty/wildy elf types mostly, no need to increase things like highborne activity - that's all shown in the broken isles alongside the Nightborne. Blood elf /nightborne relationship is still shown when we visit blood elves. But when we visit the broken isles, it's more a locals affair continuing the night elf Highborne/Nightborne story - and no one gets left out.

[Piamonte]

I don't think everyone views it that way. Because the high elves are a race very separated from most night elf proven attributes and characteristics despite the similarities, they have many differences from actual night elven highborne. Raven did call them a Highborne race, but as the actual Highborne are a caste, and these have a lot of differences, it works- They're a very special elf sub-race.

OP views them as the group that makes connection to the night elves , most obvious even though I think they overplay the significance to the night elves and blizzards role for them which is shifting firmly to the forest elf side after a lot of Highborne stuff in Legion. They have the Nightborne for the Highborne stuff, seems a waste of time to do more on the night elves

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I know what will solve this. Blizzard making the damn Nightborne neutral - then the Highborne can all move to Suramar, and they can build pre-sundering Kaldorei stuff together on the Broken isles in Suramar and Azsuna, and Val'sharah and CoEn serve as their druidic/priestly spots.

Although the capital is neutral, allegiance is left up to the Nightborne, some side with the horde b/c of hte blood elves, but most are interested in restoring the broken kaldorei civlization and don't like mixing with non-elven races.

Problem solved - broken isles becomes your Night elf highborne/nightborne civilization zone, accessible by both factions, Kalimdor your foresty/wildy elf types mostly, no need to increase things like highborne activity - that's all shown in the broken isles alongside the Nightborne. Blood elf /nightborne relationship is still shown when we visit blood elves. But when we visit the broken isles, it's more a locals affair continuing the night elf Highborne/Nightborne story - and no one gets left out.

problem solved??? do you even read yourself?

Infracted.

[Mace]

I was just kidding

Don't you know, forum nerds don't have a sense of humour - we take everything super seriously

that was the TLDR version, now for the real response ….

[Beloren]

problem solved??? do you even read yourself?

Infracted.

I'm trying to bring solutions on an issue some fans on opposite sides seem to disagree heavily on. What's wrong with that? Trying to understand what motivates them to desire their various positions and producing perhaps a solution that would make both happy.

Ofc I read myself, I wrote it. What's so wrong with exploring different options?

[Mace]

@Super Dickmann I don't know if you read all I wrote in my Response to You Here , since you say you avoid me and my topics as nonsense. But in the interest of at least understanding why an avid night elf fan extremely well versed in their lore has these views? Wouldn't you, at least, if just for the last time ever, read what I wrote to you in that weird topic, then make up your mind? You didn't strike me as a completely close minded person, but I don't know, I choose to instead believe you are at least open minded and are at least willing to revise previously held convictions or at least hear out another perspective and the basis for it. You don't strike me as a person afraid of changing his mind, or unwilling to if he sees there is sufficient cause, so please read above, and read this below.

Some think it’s 2 night elves, pre-sundering night elf, and current night elf - it isn’t, it’s 1 night elf. Same night elf. Same race, same culture, 2 periods with different circumstances that explain the lifestyle changes

They think pre-sundering night elf is blood elves, and the post sundering night elf is the other type – wrong again, that's a false dichotomy. It’s only one night elf, blood elves are a new type of night elf that isn’t night elf any more but day elf continuing with a history and character distinct from the night elf in both it's eras though it shares some similarities. It’s not splitting the night elf, it’s a new group of elf in the Thalassians, while the night elf continues on.

In order to support the 2 night elf theory, you have to ignore a lot of lore, you have to ignore:

• 1. That the night elf hasn’t changed or genetically modified, and ignore why it was kaldorei then and still is kaldorei now.
• 2. You have to pretend as if the Long Vigil lifestyle change was something completely new and forever permanent – it was neither. Post long vigil, when there is no longer need to isolate, carry the mission of the long vigil and ban the arcane, guess what? Many pre-sundering things return. And the arcane-less culture of the Vigil, not new either, it was what the night elves had before they learnt the arcane and built their civilization – not new.
• 3. You’d have to ignore that Shen’dralar, Moonguard, Farondis, and Illidari night elves are night elves, because they all carry on in a lot of pre-sundering states - and if it is indeed two different elves - then how are they night elves? Some of them even re-united together?
• 4. You’d have to change the priesthood of Elune completely, the order that has remained the same, just shifted it’s operation emphasis based on the need and mission of the race, but same order.

All in all, you’d have to deny much of what makes night elves, night elves only to fit a false dichotomy.

What really happens is night elves continue on as the same night elves from before sundering and into after sundering even though some night elves become new aberration races along the way, the original continues. Druidism grows in the main group's culture because the arcane is banned, but the arcane, and highborne continue in separate locations, though it's suppressed in the main group till the long vigil ends which is when their new era begins with them having both arcane and nature in ratios that keep changing as things return to a new equilibrium.

Now Highborne becomes a particular race of its own when the Sunstrider group devolve to High elves, this is not the pre-sundering night elf half now, no, it’s a new elf group emerging from the night elves a portion of the night elven Highborne. It isn’t all the Highborne night elves either, so you can't say this is now what Highborne is and means – to justify that, you’d have to ignore
1. The Shen’dralar
2. The Illidari (some of whom are highboren)
3. The naga (all of whom are Highborne)
4. The Satyr (many of whom were highborne)
5. The Farondis
6. The Nightborne (many of whom are highborne)
That’s a lot of groups you would have to ignore to justify this. So you can't say really now attribute the night elf Highborne legacy to a race that's not even night elven, with actual highborne still around in order to maintain the 2 elf state, when it's really night elves diversifying just like trolls did, with the original the Kaldorei (like the Zandalari) still continuing on in the multiple traditions of the race (b/c even while druidism aspect of the race was prevalent, arcane culture and Highborne culture was still around in other night elf groups throughout the Long Vigil era, and after that ends, even the main group makes room for a Highborne caste and arcane practice it once felt it had to ban, but ofc no longer needs to, so it doesn't.

What has happened is that blizzard has just formed new elven groups and races from the night elves. Most new races come from the palace Highborne (not all highborne) – the group most involved with the Legion – they are the ones most changed. The other Highborne continue on as night elves or the slight alteration to Nightborne. So you can't really say Highborne is a second type of elf and split the night elf that way either - no, the night elf continues with the same Elunism, Druidism and arcane cultures that were all present in the pre-sundering era, this all continues in the long vigil with night elves, however the groups are segregated in isolated sections of each other, whiles in the pre-sundering era they mixed and mingled as one.

New elven groups and other races from them also emerge, but these are no longer kaldorei based. Kaldorei origined but they are not the other sides to the kaldorei. The full scope of the kaldorei from the pre-sundering era and long vigil still exists in the current kaldorei race, both in terms of physical attributes and in terms of culture and practice - they are all there. It is one race that continues in all those that are still kaldorei - whether druids, priests, Highborne , Moonguard, Illidari, Wardens etc.

I moved this response to this topic here. That mainly focus on it. I do recommend reading My Initial Response to You Here
first then reading this, then have a look at the first topic of this post.

[Vaedan]

I don't think everyone views it that way. Because the high elves are a race very separated from most night elf proven attributes and characteristics despite the similarities, they have many differences from actual night elven highborne. Raven did call them a Highborne race, but as the actual Highborne are a caste, and these have a lot of differences, it works- They're a very special elf sub-race.

OP views them as the group that makes connection to the night elves , most obvious even though I think they overplay the significance to the night elves and blizzards role for them which is shifting firmly to the forest elf side after a lot of Highborne stuff in Legion. They have the Nightborne for the Highborne stuff, seems a waste of time to do more on the night elves

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I know what will solve this. Blizzard making the damn Nightborne neutral - then the Highborne can all move to Suramar, and they can build pre-sundering Kaldorei stuff together on the Broken isles in Suramar and Azsuna, and Val'sharah and CoEn serve as their druidic/priestly spots.

Although the capital is neutral, allegiance is left up to the Nightborne, some side with the horde b/c of hte blood elves, but most are interested in restoring the broken kaldorei civlization and don't like mixing with non-elven races.

Problem solved - broken isles becomes your Night elf highborne/nightborne civilization zone, accessible by both factions, Kalimdor your foresty/wildy elf types mostly, no need to increase things like highborne activity - that's all shown in the broken isles alongside the Nightborne. Blood elf /nightborne relationship is still shown when we visit blood elves. But when we visit the broken isles, it's more a locals affair continuing the night elf Highborne/Nightborne story - and no one gets left out.

Sharing Suramar can be solution, but honestly, most of the horde fanbase would explode in anger should that happen. I also have to admit it is actually place where Nightborne lived for 10 thousand years, it is mostly their territory now.

How about night elves and nightborne building a new place together, sharing their knowledge and strenghtening their bonds? Place like Eldre'thalas could work. It has history for both groups and it has secrets valuable for both groups. Rebuilding Eldre'thalas together could be really impactful start. As is Dalaran human and thalassian place of cooperation, Eldre'thalas could be place of kaldorei and shal'dorei cooperation.

[Mace]

Sharing Suramar can be solution, but honestly, most of the horde fanbase would explode in anger should that happen. I also have to admit it is actually place where Nightborne lived for 10 thousand years, it is mostly their territory now.

How about night elves and nightborne building a new place together, sharing their knowledge and strenghtening their bonds? Place like Eldre'thalas could work. It has history for both groups and it has secrets valuable for both groups. Rebuilding Eldre'thalas together could be really impactful start. As is Dalaran human and thalassian place of cooperation, Eldre'thalas could be place of kaldorei and shal'dorei cooperation.

I suspect once again it's only the handful who are making a lot of noise. Just like the high elf situation, most players would either welcome it or don't care. If they're honest, they know that Suramar is night elven and the Nightborne a night elven sub-race, and the lore nnerds know how significant it is to night elf history. .

But you never know how people will react, Nightborne are an allied race, they are a lot less popular than void elves, and everyone acknowledges the alliance armies were right there alongside the blood evles, and that night elves alone were helping them prior to 7.1, and ofc their night elven culture they still carried on with up to 7.2

I don't think fanbase exploding is enough to stop blizzard, afterall, if it was they'd never have destroyed Darnassus, and while there was a lot of backlash, the biggest point was how, horde players are the ones they listened to, it made the horde player look like villain, and their faction evil (which kinda is what it sorta has been), except most horde players don't want to be evil, they want to be heroes.

A Suramar share can actually make the Nightborne aligned horde look very good, and strongly standing up against bigotry even if it's from their close allies. If you focus the story on a shared objective/racial goal of rebuilding kaldorei civilization (phrase it as elven civilization - but it really is kaldorei civilization), then that's a noble pursuit. If you justification for helping the night elves comes out of a just place - i.e. 1. They saved us 3 times so we owe them , 2. We didn't condone the genocide so we need to help this race 3. We value our history and connections greatly - helping the night elves proves that we would be loyal and a friend to all we befriend.

These are quite strong points that actually make the Nightborne come off with the sort of nobility you expect of a real noble and a benevolent kaldorei. And to the naysayers who interpret it as split loyalties or even betrayals, they should eloquently argue, showing it is neither, choosing to stand to break the cycle of hatred and hold their ground in their position. Declare the horde needs to decide what it stands for and take responsibility for its actions, which would you prefer a gesture of kindness to the most wronged alliance race of all or cold indifference? Which would help prevent another waste of life war - an act of kindness or indifference? The Shal'dorei are a night elven people, we allied with the horde believing it stood for nobility and strength, we won't turn our backs on our kin who have thrice saved us and whom the horde owe. We are the only ones in a position to do this.

The truth of the Nightborne while in the horde, take it as secondary priority, especially in a post war scenario over a war they did not like, the stance makes sense, that they prioritise elven affairs over faction affairs, - this ofc requires blizzard to make this a shift -

All this is a potential scenario that could be used to push ahead, - I'm not saying this is what Nightborne will do, but rather this is what Nightborne can potentially do if you were going ahead with Enigmaddict's proposal (which really is a modified version of a proposal I suggested a few years back). But i'm a sucker for looking at potential scenarios I'm not entirely opposed to

[ravenmoon]

@Vaedan ,

Before Suramar and the Nightborne were implemented in game, all these horde elf fan bois had zero interest in the kaldorei, their highborne and the pre-sundering civilization. I've been on wow and mmo-champion forums for 15 years, and only NElf fans were interested in seeing things like Highborne, pristine sundering cities or excited about the arcane.

Only Nelf fans cared about the Highborne Shen'dralar, you had some who didn't understand it/felt it was mistake, but a lot more that really loved it. Not one horde fan ever suggested or desired Highborne for the horde...and you know what..

Not one horde fan wanted Highborne associated with blood elves. I made a topic about it shortly after Cataclysm, theorising that the blood elves possibly would still consider themselves Highborne, the rejection was unanimous from the horde fans - yes, this is after TBC and Cata - pointing out with many arguments how they're different now, moved on, only connected through ancetry, have nothing to do with the Highborne.

do you know when their tune changed? 7.0 - Suramar, epic cool night elf city, epic night elven based casters - stunning visuals .. it was pretty much in-game artwork of what is in WotA trilogy... and all of a sudden.

The comparison posts of how similar Nightborne, Highborne are to blood elves.. ownership of Highborne lore by blood elf fans. People like Tanaria, rushing on forums constantly interchanging Highborne and blood elf with pride.. and you know what they started doing?

Night elf denial, night elf association with Highborne denial, thalassian replacing Highborne - arguments now thick and fast, frequent trying to say night elvs had nothing to do with the Highborne, .. they couldn't care less when the Highborne were scantily visualised Shen'drlaar in ruined city, not performing any magic on screen, scholars and lore keepers - they had no interest.

The minute they made that Highborne and night elf arcane legacy flashy.. they rushed to own it for the horde 9before Nightborne were announced as playable). Oh the hypocrisy is what I can't stand in these people. The sheer double standards.

They've now seen it presented properly, and want it for themselves, even though it's clearly night elven, and my friends and fellow ally players have to constantly defend and point out ot them, and their constant denial that this is the case.

I'm sick of it, the lore is right there, and yet they are seeing only what they want to see, instead of what actually is the case, because they want it for themselves.

Well, funny thing is, they got the in-game version, yep, Suramar and the Nightborne went horde, the rest of the night elvesn Highborne, what they can do, and achieve still not shown for the alliance yet. But they use this now to claim that night elves can't live in a city like Suramar or in any pre-sundering style city, go on to say they can't build one or won't build one, just any excuse to point out that the night elf race will never have any pre-sundering stuff - regardless of what the lore says, even the game shows, Never mind there is an an entire Highborne caste active and growing too.

It's full on denial.

[Tuor]

@Vaedan ,

Before Suramar and the Nightborne were implemented in game, all these horde elf fan bois had zero interest in the kaldorei, their highborne and the pre-sundering civilization. I've been on wow and mmo-champion forums for 15 years, and only NElf fans were interested in seeing things like Highborne, pristine sundering cities or excited about the arcane.

Only Nelf fans cared about the Highborne Shen'dralar, you had some who didn't understand it/felt it was mistake, but a lot more that really loved it. Not one horde fan ever suggested or desired Highborne for the horde...and you know what..

Not one horde fan wanted Highborne associated with blood elves. I made a topic about it shortly after Cataclysm, theorising that the blood elves possibly would still consider themselves Highborne, the rejection was unanimous from the horde fans - yes, this is after TBC and Cata - pointing out with many arguments how they're different now, moved on, only connected through ancetry, have nothing to do with the Highborne.

do you know when their tune changed? 7.0 - Suramar, epic cool night elf city, epic night elven based casters - stunning visuals .. it was pretty much in-game artwork of what is in WotA trilogy... and all of a sudden.

The comparison posts of how similar Nightborne, Highborne are to blood elves.. ownership of Highborne lore by blood elf fans. People like Tanaria, rushing on forums constantly interchanging Highborne and blood elf with pride.. and you know what they started doing?

Night elf denial, night elf association with Highborne denial, thalassian replacing Highborne - arguments now thick and fast, frequent trying to say night elvs had nothing to do with the Highborne, .. they couldn't care less when the Highborne were scantily visualised Shen'drlaar in ruined city, not performing any magic on screen, scholars and lore keepers - they had no interest.

The minute they made that Highborne and night elf arcane legacy flashy.. they rushed to own it for the horde 9before Nightborne were announced as playable). Oh the hypocrisy is what I can't stand in these people. The sheer double standards.

They've now seen it presented properly, and want it for themselves, even though it's clearly night elven, and my friends and fellow ally players have to constantly defend and point out ot them, and their constant denial that this is the case.

I'm sick of it, the lore is right there, and yet they are seeing only what they want to see, instead of what actually is the case, because they want it for themselves.

Well, funny thing is, they got the in-game version, yep, Suramar and the Nightborne went horde, the rest of the night elvesn Highborne, what they can do, and achieve still not shown for the alliance yet. But they use this now to claim that night elves can't live in a city like Suramar or in any pre-sundering style city, go on to say they can't build one or won't build one, just any excuse to point out that the night elf race will never have any pre-sundering stuff - regardless of what the lore says, even the game shows, Never mind there is an an entire Highborne caste active and growing too.

It's full on denial.

My main was a NElf, yes, back in cata people whinned a lot about the Highborne returning, i was one that actually understood why, and i actually defended them.

Yes, a lot of horde fan boys here that don't even understand NElf lore.

As for Suramar, face it already, its horde, and Nightborne are obviously no longer NElfs, and they went horde.

As for the new city (if they do any, which i doubt) look at Darnassus, does it look pre-sundering? Its made out of living trees mostly. Even Suramar got its own style, remember, i don't think there is many building there that survived 10k years, and those that did, most likely required maintenance, which means, nothing in Suramar is pre-sundering.

The facts for NElfs are these, they banned magic, and lived without it for 10k years, i'm not saying they don't have the potential, but having the potential for using arcane is not the same has being able to. Yes, the Highborne are back... But they are so few.

Claiming that NElfs should be all about magic, has some here on this thread are doing, is just a fan nuthshell, it doesn't make ANY sense. They shifted away from arcane 10k years ago, for 10k years they didn't even had a town of their own, so would they suddently restart building buildings in a pre-sundering style, when they haven't donne so in Darnassus?

To finish, the main plot is that the large majority of NElfs descend from non-highborne, they haven't been extensive magic users before the sundering, and those old enought to remember, still remember how the Highborne ruled over the non-Highborne, and this the fact, NElfs haven't being highborne before the sundering... And the Highborne that survived are so few, so why would such a minority rule over the others? Because they have that right?

[Super Dickmann]

@Mace

I'll respond to you here, and mostly cap it off here with my own wall of text. The credit I will give you is that you definitely put a lot of effort into these biblically long posts. As someone who also tends to ramble, you simply write far, far too much and say way too little in your posts, of which massive amounts are taken up by what amounts to speculation and cherrypicking, inflating mild points and minor events beyond all recognition while ignoring vast amounts of screentime. Your premise is misguided at best in its take, your evidence is flimsy even past that, but even if they were rock solid, your ultimate pitch and the pitch of the thankfully only handful of people who share your position would be ruinous to implement, pushing the dominant aspect of one race to the background so that it can take over the main points of two other races which are already redundant, thus eliminating three races for the price of one, all for the sake of pushing the most trite, stereotypical and conflictless version of the standard fantasy elf conceived. Except purple.

1. Playable and Unplayable Night Elves - Virtually every argument you make begins with the playable Night Elves, what you call the Darnassian night elves and most people rightly call just night elves in the same way one doesn't tie themselves in knots to specify that they don't mean the Holy Roman Empire, the GDR or the Vandal Tribes when speaking of modern Germany, are, by virtue of having the origin in the Kaldorei Empire the same entity, and that all themes and elements of said Empire flow into a single race. This is not the case - every argument made to push that premise is false. The Long Vigil was the state of things for 10k years, a much longer period than the empire and their time in the Alliance combined, with a drastically different demographic from the latter and consisted of a wholesale absence of arcane magic as practiced by mages from that society and their expulsion.

The Shen'dralar, Dath'remar's elves, the Demon Hunters and Nightborne were all absent from that society and so had zero effect on it. Indeed, the former two leaving was based entirely on the restrictions on magic and their refusal to change their lifestyle - a change that was not based, as you claim, on mere practicality, but an overall association of arcane and the imperial trappings as decadent and destructive. That's why despite Dath'remar and company having the runestones and being able to hide themselves from demons and the Shen'dralar only drawing in a demon by their own volition, they were still not wanted in that society and would have been executed for remaining in it - arcane as practiced by people, rather than the Moonwells and Well of Eternity were inherently disliked. Magic was itself inherently decadent. The Nightborne and Illidari are even more blatant cases - demon hunters were in prison for 10k years and are described as despised and suspicious, with none being part of night elf society and the Nightborne literally lived in a bubble, with the reaction to them by Tyrande being exactly what I describe - suspicion of their decadence and lack of moral fibre, not despite but because they were a snapshot of the old Empire that they in every aspect of behaviour were stepping away from.

I have at no point denied that the Kaldorei Empire was an extremely arcane society - that there are many, many night elf groups, both current (if you count Farondis as current since he's dead) and former (Moon Guard, Highborne etc.) to whom arcane and nature work in sync in exactly the fashion you suggest. Where I differ with you on, and why your premise is wrong is because despite all these branching groups finding separate societies that are either actively politically divided from the modern-day Night Elves on this basis (Nightborne/Blood Elves) or simply separate (Farondis, the one remaining Moon Guard mage, the Illidari), you only count the playable Darnassian night elves as a successor state of the Empire, when in fact, multiple aspects of it have found expression in multiple cultures. Including, to my chagrin, arcane magic through the reintroduced Shen'dralar, which was nevertheless done dubiously and not without backlash and which has an extremely small amount of relative importance and screen time, hence the focus of my next point. To whit, this is the same reason why I don't consider the wealth of druidry related stuff in Legion to be playable night elf lore and understand why you and @ravenmoon aren't very interested in it - it has the trappings of night elf-ery, but little focus on the race per se without any attempt to integrate it into the player experience.

2. Playable Night Elves and the Arcane - In the above I'm trying to tell you that the playable night elves and the unplayable entities constitute distinct entities, in the next, I'll address your claims of reintegration and spread of arcane magic in that society. For that purpose, I'm both acknowledging and dismissing Farondis, the Moon Guard, the Highborne society of yore and so forth. I will focus solely on the reintegrated Shen'dralar, their students and their relative screentime. This is because of what I described in the first paragraph - these groups are all night elves, and they're all arcane. Yet they're not part of the main playable night elf group and are respectively deceased, deceased except for one person and gone for 10k years whereupon they've split into two separate states in Quel'thalas and Suramar respectively. As such, the only applicable arcane night elf group are the Shen'dralar and those they taught, which are inarguably part.

I am uninterested in arguing the competence of tehse parties, only their prominence. You won't see me going on about how blood elves are better at magic because of Azshara quests or whatever, since it's simply not a representative sample. Rather, that what it shows is that reintegration is slow. This is shown further by the paucity of NPCs and questlines that focus on this aspect. You say Druids and I can direct you to a whole patch about them. You say Wardens and I can point you to their Legion, Darkshore, Cataclysm roles. Sentinels? Everywhere. But night elf mage appearances are few and rarely focused on. In BFA alone, consider the wealth of focus put on Sentinels defending their land from the Horde, or later taking revenge on the Horde, along with druids and their respective leaders, compared to Mordent Evenshade, a let's face it, extremely shallow non-character and his one appearance. Wisps more consistently factor into playable night elf content than mages.

But screentime isn't everything, it could be that it's implied in other works how they're treated or it's the subject of out of game information - once more not the case for playable night elf mages. You can speculate that huge numbers are being taught or that they're now reinvolved in whatever plots there might be, ditto that the night elves are reassessing their role towards them to view them positively. You could just as easily argue that given how Maiev and the Wardens going on a killing spree of them went completely unpunished and she's now in charge of her armies with nary a mention that nobody really gives a shit and considers them a fringe group of barely trustworthy participants. Indeed, their lack of screentime would make the latter more compelling evidence-wise. But both are pure speculation - they have no basis in the text. You have a hard time differentiating what you would like to happen, what might even make sense to happen with what has in fact happened. You operate from the conclusion - you've already decided that the playable night elves are intensely arcane, and work backwards from that point to push your points - that's why, even after being called out on bringing up that dev interview with the drow by multiple people, you responded to me, as you did to them, by simply doing your entire spiel verbatim a second time, bringing no new arguments to counter this. I suspect it's because you genuinely can't understand the point we're making - namely that you read the document in that fashion because you've already made your mind up and repeat yourself because you think we don't grasp the obvious rather than considering the opposite. This flows in turn to the issue of the wishlist of this entire project.

3. Elf Questing Content and Projection - A sizable focus and undercurrent of all of these topics is that the overlap of elves is not actually a downside - if anything, that there isn't enough overlap is the flaw. Much like with your reasoning for night elf mage integration being a combination of overstatement, a purposeful overlap of playable and unplayable night elf groups and an over-emphasis on arcane content and the overwhelming weight put on what constitute miniscule amounts of the total playable night elf quests. I don't think you're being disingenuous when you say that you genuinely believe that the Night Elf and Blood Elves are meant to fill the same niche. I think that you are so deep down the rabbit hole you can't look out. Where the arcane addiction and use of arcane elements is a recurring motif among the Blood Elves, as is their decadence, relationship with the Horde and so forth, 99% of playable night elf quests, whih is to say quests tied with the Darnassian faction of Night Elves, center on the defense of nature, the fighting of invaders and so forth. This extends even to 'neutral' content - in Cataclysm, the breach that produced the druids of the Flame was based not on magic, but on the Malfurion's lax behaviour towards the Horde and a feeling that the night elves were being let down by their choice in allies, Farondis' story, unlike the Nightborne one, has arcane as an incidental element, casually practiced, but ultimately about his personal relationship and dealing with death. There is simply a very, very sparse amount of quests that deal with the playable Night Elves' view of the arcane in their society. I brought up the Azshara quest before, but it's one of the only times we actually see such mages appear and even then, it's part of quest content for the Horde. It's a moment that characterizes the blood elf gimmick of arcane elves while undercutting these new elves. You don't see any of it as a Night Elf. Ditto the tonal change in Night Elf vs. Blood Elf involvement in Suramar, where the differences and similarities are emphasized respectively.

This is not an argument in favour of Horde Nightborne - to be entirely honest with you, I don't really like the Nightborne despite still liking night elves quite a bit and having liked blood elves before they were reverted to red high elves. I love the aesthetic, to be sure, its' well made, the quests are well crafted, but they are simply a redundant element of the setting - the story of reintegration of mages into night elves and how they handle it already ahd an angle with the Shen'dralar, the Horde already had arcane elves in the blood elves, with a functionally identical backstory, niche and even plot pertaining to the Legion. I'd have preferred for them to, were they to exist, remain neutral, because while they'd arguably have more of a story in the Alliance than the Horde, they would always be doing something another race already can. Rather I bring them up because far from Blizzrad having a grand design regarding the reintroduction of arcane to the night elves, every single time they've had the chance to show playable night elves interact with arcane magic using elves, there is either simply nothing there or there is hostility. Not hostility to the point of war, since they're generally not that kind of people, but cultural distance and alienation. Which leads neatly into the last part I'd like to address, which is the purpose of races in the game in general and the importance of definition and variety.

4. Conflict, Variety and Racial Identity - I've told you and ravenmoon several times that you're more Highborne fans than Night elf fans, and while I stand by that, I think the bigger issue and what is likely closer to the truth is that you are simply elf fans in general, and while to different degrees, you like all aspects of elves and consider the night elves to be progenitor elves that should have all these traits. While in the above three I've explained how that's simply not born out by the game, here I'm addressing how that goal is antithetical to the purpose of the game and the enabling of conflict, as well to cultural variety.

I've often seen you bring up the Zandalari vis a vis Darkspear and other trolls, to get across what you're after - a gestalt entity holding all racial aspects. That is, to whit, my greatest problem with the Zandalari - by existing, they nullify one of the main playable races, because they subsume most of its aspects. That is why I hope that future stories will emphasize the differences and separation - in the troll case - that being an established, if decaying empire with a strict caste system and monarchy, opulent and rich compared to the more savage, down to earth approach of the Darkspear, and in turn how these things address other matters - like how Bwonsamdi is viewed skeptically by the Zandalari, but is liked by the Darkspear, and how anyone with enouhg competence can rise in one tribe while another has a more strict division. Ditto, having Darkspear appear more in subtler roles while the Zandalari have their grandeur in proper formations. What I'm getting at here is that more is sometimes less - and more is definitely less when it's based around undermining aspects of other races or its own race. Bringing that to the night elves and other elves, you can already see what I'm getting at with the Nightborne and Blood Elves. The two have a lot in common - too much, in fact, because they are interchangable in just about any story except ones about the Light, grievances with the Alliance, Horde, Legion or so forth, where the blood elves have more going for them. The Nightborne are low-rent blood elves, and to function, they need to take over the arcane niche, which leaves one race with less, and another race superfluous since the aspect it's been grafted onto could easily be given to someone else and thus leave more room to focus on that character.

Multiply this by a thousand in a case where the Night Elves have all aspects of the Kaldorei Empire and every splinter group we've seen hanging around, as well as its cousin states. The Nightborne would remain pointless in such a setup, whereas the blood elves would be a palette swap who remain on the wrong faction, but it's the night elves themselves who'd lose out the most. Warcraft is not a game of extremely internal cultures - rather, cultures are blocs where certain aspects all match. The Draenor Orc Clans are a sign of this done right - they're all recognizably orcs who's gimmicks are spins on core orcish values and positions. The playable night elves have this - the priesthood of Elune, the sentinels, wardens, their ties with the ancients, and to my personal chagrin, but your approval, the arcane reintegration. Through their variety they enable more internal and external stories and points of conflict, but they don't step on the toes of any other race. This would not be the case for a hypothetical Kaldorei Empire - for one, the bulk of current night elf content, focused on sentinels and nature and the like would, by your own admission, fall to the wayside. You don't want playable night elves to be forest elves, but disregarding that that is the niche they exist to fill and as emphasized above constitutes just about every aspect of their content, the focus away from that towards other aspects taht are already covered elsewhere, be it religiosity in blood elves, arcane with Nightborne or what have you would not produce any new stories. All those stories can already be told. But other stories - stories based on friction and cultural incompatibility leading to conflict, which is the crux of the game, could not be told. You can no longer have night elves taking issue with arcane use, or at least in no fashion different from what blood elves and nightborne can already do by taking issue with irresponsibility, but not the core choices that they already hold.

The preservation of nature as such, the nightly predator aspect would also be pushed into the forefront in favor of stories that already exist. You can alraedy see how much of the night elf function, much like the Horde pre-Cataclysm, had its races overlap culturally and functionally, to the point where a tauren was often an objectively worse story choice to include than an orc, because an orc had far more story tied up with that issue. The same will be true of night elves and their adjoining races. Less is often more - the elements not part of a race and that in trun bring it into conflict with other races are crucial to defining it - a group that is everything is in turn nothing. A story route that limits the overall amount of stories that can be told - as such a story inevitably would, much like an undifferentiated Zandalari and Darkspear is one that should not be taken.

To conclude - variety, difference and gaps in any race are essential. The past as characterization of the present is fine, but the two aren't the same, wishful thinking and speculation - even interesting speculation of the kind you've produced isn't evidence, but changes that seek to reduce racial difference and deemphasize the main value of the races as products are inherently bad.

[Beloren]

My main was a NElf, yes, back in cata people whinned a lot about the Highborne returning, i was one that actually understood why, and i actually defended them.

Yes, a lot of horde fan boys here that don't even understand NElf lore.

As for Suramar, face it already, its horde, and Nightborne are obviously no longer NElfs, and they went horde.

As for the new city (if they do any, which i doubt) look at Darnassus, does it look pre-sundering? Its made out of living trees mostly. Even Suramar got its own style, remember, i don't think there is many building there that survived 10k years, and those that did, most likely required maintenance, which means, nothing in Suramar is pre-sundering.

The facts for NElfs are these, they banned magic, and lived without it for 10k years, i'm not saying they don't have the potential, but having the potential for using arcane is not the same has being able to. Yes, the Highborne are back... But they are so few.

Claiming that NElfs should be all about magic, has some here on this thread are doing, is just a fan nuthshell, it doesn't make ANY sense. They shifted away from arcane 10k years ago, for 10k years they didn't even had a town of their own, so would they suddently restart building buildings in a pre-sundering style, when they haven't donne so in Darnassus?

To finish, the main plot is that the large majority of NElfs descend from non-highborne, they haven't been extensive magic users before the sundering, and those old enought to remember, still remember how the Highborne ruled over the non-Highborne, and this the fact, NElfs haven't being highborne before the sundering... And the Highborne that survived are so few, so why would such a minority rule over the others? Because they have that right?

This is what I've been trying to tell Rsvenmoon, and he thinks I'm being mean. It's horde now, doesnt matter if hordies never cared till Legion or stuff that happened 10 years ago, no one remembers or cares.

A lot of Highborne, high elven stuff is shown aligned to the horde even though it first was in the alliance and still is, blizzard develop it on the horde much more and you have to face facts that they are choosing this.

Sure you have Highborne, and High elves, but they arent showing these night elven mages do anything, they arent giving them cities or roles, they blizzard pass them up for humans and the horde.

This is what blizzard wants.
@Mace can list and show all the arcane connection and night elf lore and he is 100% correct factually, but blizzard isnt developing this in the alliance, they throw some crumbs your way and you start imagining cities and return to glory, essays on wonder future, feel bad for you guys, all that effort, and blizzard just give you humans and show the elf arcane and civilization stuff on the horde, and it really ticks you off.

Well dont take it out on hordies, it's blizzard that is doing this, take it up with them. You have made eloquent and detailed arguments proving the lore gives you these things, it does, but that's all you have - you have your Highborne, and high elves. Your night elves have arcane capability and essences, but blizzard isnt making use of them to show off like you want on the alliance, they do it on the horde.

Deal with it.

Until they actually give you cities and show your night elf casters are serious business, all the future projection stuff is pointless.

As it stands, you can play as a night elf mage, they are there, if that's your fantasy, they have provision for it, but it's not huge thing or boldly visible thing, and you have to accept this. Soon you can even roll a high elf that's handling void stuff, but blizzard isnt doing any major high elf developments or lore, they are not in Silvermoon or Quel'thalas. That is for the horde, and until they show it in game, you just have to accept it how it is.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you guys are being to optimistic and hyped about what might come or what you feel should come, and it wont end well. Get excited when they give you, its point less until then @Syegfryed and @Rhlor are a perfect example of most horde fans, wasnt asking for nightborne, wasnt expecting them, but when they came now they could be excited. I didnt even want them, still a bit meh about them but I am loving that they're horde.

This is healthy. Use all this energy for roleplay guilds, you can be an advanced Highborne or Moonguard pushing for your people's development and proving to the world the night elf is talented...the game wont stop you you can proceed, but that's about it, it's not going to be more until they give you more.

And if they do, are you going to come bragging on here? That will make you even sadder