Who lost its soul? Veteran Players or the Game?

[Kehego]

You have no clue but enjoy your fantasy world where no one plays just for fun.

You can play for fun and carry people at the same time. the concepts aren't mutually exclusive

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I disagree with your second argument. Those dev jokes are completely immersion breaking for me..

there's been poop quests, dev jokes and homages since vanilla.

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I fail to remember bnet offering anything like discord

wtf social platform is this guy talking about?

[exochaft]

for many people the main problem of mythic + is timers and the extreme rush mentality they brought into game.

imo yes game would be better overall without mythic + in its current iteration.

what they bring atm is nothing but toxicity and elitism .

and i say it as someone who praised them strongly when they were released in legion . but time shown it was a mistake. and just bad influence on game overall

I, for one, love M+ for the most part... in a vacuum. However, M+ does not exist in a vacuum, and that's where the issue arises.

If I had a favorite version of M+, it was when it was actually CM's. CM's were not mandatory for power gains at all, as the rewards were purely cosmetic (teleports are nice, many of which I still use). You could compete on your server for realm-best times and realm-best achievements for CM's and min/max to your hearts content, but even the cosmetic rewards were all gained if you got gold times. Basically, CM's were optional content for people who wanted to do a speed clearing challenge that didn't punish players for not doing the content.

In contrast, M+ is pretty much mandatory for power gains (doubled down when weekly chest provides guaranteed corruption in 8.3). Many of the affixes themselves are super annoying and punitive in nature, not even a hint of kiss/curse which would likely feel so much better in the world of affixes. Seasonal affixes are a mixed bag, but I do like the nature of Awakened since you can use the affix to your benefit versus there always being a downside. However, because the content feels mandatory, you're SOL if you don't like the content.

In the end, I don't think M+ was a mistake as I think it can be improved... however making it necessary for gearing efficiently is the problem, especially if there's no content just as rewarding/difficult for people that want to do something other than speed-clearing dungeons. However, to tie this into the main theme of the thread, I feel this is a developer mindset issue that has changed over time at Blizz. Admitted even by Blizz, a lot of content design and balance is through the mindset of the top 0.5% of min/max players. While there may be some cross-over appeal, the chances that you're going to alienate the other 99.5% of the population are really high with that sort of mentality. As a player, I've found myself reacting to instances and moments in WoW with negative feelings, as there's nothing that feels positive from a design and balance standpoint... and while I may have changed a bit as a player, what I've found enjoyable at its core has not.

[Niwes]

The developers? Everything in "modern" WoW is made to keep you logged in and churn out those MAU's for Gobby Kotick and his precious shareholders. That is understandable and the way it's always been to a certain extent, it's just that the activities that keep you logged in have over time become a banal slog. You're very heavily encouraged to keep logging in EVERY SINGLE DAY to keep up with the latest grind, whether it's AP, essences, currency for cloak upgrades or just plain old gold. You know those "free" games where you yourself are actually the product for the corporation? That's what modern wow feels like, except you even pay to play wow.

Catchup mechanisms either don't exist or come way too late for people who cba with all the fluff that is required to keep up with todays raiding / competitive m+ environment. I'm excited for Shadowlands, where "loot will be loot" again apparently. I'm still holding off on buying it and probably won't until I get to play the alpha / beta. First sign of whatever bullshit grind they've come up with this time around to keep me churning out MAUs, and I'm skipping this one.

this /100%agree

[Monster Hunter]

You're going to have to explain to me how people who grind WQs make more money than people who raidlog.

Shush he's argument dosnt make sense when you point out wow is a monthly sub game so blizz make the same whether or not you log in as long as you have a sub.

[TorAndre]

Yeah.. so different game modes and difficulty levels are played differently. Select playing the game modes that suit you. You don't go into +20 key and pretend the timer doesn't exist because you want to "explore the dungeon". That's griefing others.

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Making social contacts and "friends" in WoW has never been easier. But it takes effort from both sides - many "bitter vets" who post here seem to think the game is not social anymore. But I think it's mostly about them not being able to step outside their comfort zone and being open to meeting new people (because "M+ has timers ruhruh" or "they require discord reee").

Where did I say it happens in +20 keys?

[Craaazyyy]

it's both, but it's more about the game. The game was changing with every patch since the beginning and until a certain point veteran players were more or less fine with most changes and were welcoming many of them. But obviously at some point many of the changes stopped making sense

[Philomene]

so you rather do a dungeon once and never have to do it again, and nothing but raids being relevant content? Damn.

Have you played the game before WoD ?

[TorAndre]

You didn't. It was an example. The actual keys depend on your ability to play with others.
You adapt to the game mode, not the other way around. Not doing so causes conflicts.

Yes but why does the game mode have to be always in the other peoples favor of people with a specific mindset, even if in the minority. Why cant the people the with the speedrun mentality, some times change for what the group wants?

[Ghostile]

Have you played the game before WoD ?

You mean back when you had to run dungeons multiple times for pre-raid bis, reputation or materials?

[trm90]

Definitely both. We need less money-hungry upper management and younger devs with fresh ideas. On the flipside, a lot of veteran players are impossible to please and have a really nasty attitude towards the game. Like, beyond criticism, and just mindless bashing of Ion and whiny "i MisS mOP" posts everywhere that are entirely based on emotions and not facts.

Bringing soul back in the game has to come hand in hand. The devs need to change their attitude and the veterans, who have been fed up with a lot of systems since WoD/Legion, need to give the benefit of the doubt.

[tmamass]

Who lost its soul? Veteran Players or the Game?

Neither! only YOU did!

go play something else = "problem" solved.

[Nikeyla]

I lost interest in wow or blizzard games in general because they decided to go for the least effort and most profits over quality. Focusing on super casuals and investing more money and time into advertisement than the actual game development is just wrong. It works for their profits, but I cant imagine any actual gamer can still enjoy the half ass and artificially slowed game like the current wow. I feel like an idiot when I have a weak moment of boredom and even think of resubbing. The game doesnt change or bring any interesting content worth the money they ask for it. And I dont consider repeating daily quests as an interesting or fun content.

[Stormwolf64]

Unless you're an imbecile you'll know the problem lies with the game. Recent interviews have even proven it.

[TorAndre]

It's the default for that particular mode.
There are plenty of other game modes to choose from. There's entire game without M+ (Classic). If you really want, you can also put in the effort to only play with birds of feather and create your own group with your own rules.

But when joining a game mode that is designed around beating the timer, the default expectation for most people joining is to try beat the timer.

I was talking about all types of group content. I didn't even start by mentioning mythic+. Content on a timer will of course result in a speedrun.

I am talking about heroic, mythic 0, normal, leveling dungeons etc.

Why should one person who wants to rush and ninjapull in Stonecore expect 4 other people to sacrifice speed over fun and methodical play?

[Kehego]

Have you played the game before WoD ?

Yes, and you didn't need "pre raid bis" to clear shit first tier content.

And guess what, even if you did farm pre raid bis, once the pre-raid "event" passed, dungeons did nothing.
I like all of the content in the expansion to be relevant.

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You mean back when you had to run dungeons multiple times for pre-raid bis, reputation or materials?

You absolutely didn't, lol.
How many m0 have you run in legion and bfa?

How many heroics in wod/cata? Maybe to farm jp for heirlooms, but dassit.

[ek0zu]

Both have lost a large part of their soul but the players lost more, there is no other game on the market that has such an active community, which is a double edged blade.

Some times it's good to just google something when you are stuck, but on the same time it sucks that whatever achievement you have done someone has already done it and in a better way.

[Ghostile]

How many heroics in wod/cata? Maybe to farm jp for heirlooms, but dassit.

You know there are more expansions before WOD than those.

[Kehego]

You know there are more expansions before WOD than those.

And the point doesn't change.
Dungeons never scaled before WoD.
You'd do them in the pre-raid timeframe and never had to again. I can count the number of times I did a dungeon without being coaxed back for badges.

[crusadernero]

I used to love FPS games 10-15 years ago. Halo, CS later on CoD and many other shooters. Besides wow thats the genre I played most. These days? Nah not so much. I have the new CoD for the BR that I play with friends, but I really dont give a shit about FPS games anymore and I probably never will again.

Has the genre changed or is it me? Probably me. FPS games are still more or less the same. Get wep, run around, aim and shoot people.

What we percieved as great game(s) 10-15 years ago might not suit us anymore. Yeah wow has changed and so have we.

I play both classic and retail and ofc theres a difference, but the core is the same thing. You lvl up, kill stuff and loot stuff. Sometimes you do it alone, sometimes in groups. Sometimes its pve, sometimes its pvp. The game is also 100% better when playing with someone than alone.

I was bored of BfA but then I got into a cool guild and now we do pvp, m+, raids and other activites together and chat on discord. Suddenly the game is alot more fun to play.

The most annoy thing with modern wow is all the RNG stuff. Theres RNG on RNG for your RNG in case you want more RNG. And the shopping list over stuff "you gotta do" everyday. The AP grind sucks and puts a negtive gameplay on it. You feel forced to grind it or else you are left behind. Atleast in classic its more pure and easier to follow up on things. Sure it might be a bitch when you ding 60 when naxx is out, but I bet there will always be pug runs for older raids.

and we cannot forget the fact that many of us has played this game since launch. Thats 15 years with the same game, that more or less uses the same formula. Imagine if wow never changed beyond classic. How many of us would still be around? As times changed, Blizzard with wow had too change.

Theres not many games out there with the same amount of ppl that stays relevant for 15+ years without changes over time. Atleast not games of this scale.

[Grapperhaus]

I'd like to see some rationale for changing the game every expansion. Does Blizzard think people will not play anymore if their classes stay the same? Does Blizzard think people will not play anymore if there isn't a new AP kind of mechanic? And every expansion the same bullshit about balancing...