View Poll Results: Who lost its soul?

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  • Veteran Players

    63 20.39%
  • Game

    94 30.42%
  • Both

    127 41.10%
  • Other

    25 8.09%
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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    In this specific instance? A little of column A, a little of column B. Although I would say 'lost their souls' is hyperbole in the extreme.

    You have made something of a history on this site adopting one pet cause after another and trying to pin all the game's myriad issues on whichever issue you have chosen to crusade over at the time of making the thread, OP. You had a moment of clarity a couple weeks ago when you acknowledged you simply don't like tab-target MMOs anymore, or may have been forcing yourself to like them when tab-target was the only game in town... only to ignore the epiphany and draw the wrong conclusions once again. You began insisting that the tab-target gameplay, this, this is what's killing WoW. This time, you have it all figured out. I feel compelled to remind you of the old adage about the definition of insanity. You try the same thing over, and over again, each time thinking you've uncovered the silver bullet, and each time you expect different results.

    I'm not saying this to disrespect you. I'm saying this because seeing things laid out in plain writing can be useful for someone who's gotten themselves too wrapped up in things and has begun missing the forest for the trees.
    My moment of lucidity was when i realized i couldnt enjoy any other game on the market apart from wow because i was constantly trying to find flaws in said new games instead of sitting back and enjoy them FOR WHAT THEY ARE.

    This change of mindset made me enjoy new games for the first time in years

    Once you are able to do this...you will soon realize almost every game on the market is insanely good

    You just need to turn off the part of your brain that is constatnly trying to find "flaws" and making "comparisons" to previous games you played and thinking about the "whats IF's" to make the game better.

    Soon you are playing a new game and you start thinking "if this game made this instead it would be a better game".....just STOP! STOP!
    You need to turn off that part of your brain and focus on the positives.

    This moment of lucidity was good and all...but im still discussing WoW for some reason...so yeah....im still stupid (>_<) nothing better to do i guess

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The devs can ramble about the "saving the beating heart of the RPG", but at the end of the day, it's the people sitting at Blizzard HQ that stabbed a lot of daggers into that heart.

    Who asked them to kill off professions?
    Who asked them to prune the shit out of classes?
    Who asked them to remove unique Classes synergies (such as Windfury Totem + Warrior)?
    Who asked them to remove any defensive stats (Dodge, Parry, defense) or Mana regen stats (Spirit, Mp5)?
    Who asked them to turn almost any items into a bland copy of each that has: Stamina, Primary Stats and two secondary stats?

    Sorry, it's a damn cheap excuse for the developers to now turn around and say "look guys, we want to save the RPG!" while they have removed a ton of those RPG aspects for over a decade by now.
    Well if you believe the developers, the players have pushed all those things.

    Players pushed for QoL changes, players complained about too many buttons, players wanted to be able to do content with their friends regardless of class (‘bring the player not the class‘), players thought all the stats on gear were confusing and didn’t know when an upgrade was an upgrade

  3. #103
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    No one lost his soul (>_<) is just fancy words
    And ofcourse im not speaking for every Veteran Player...i was trying to refer to the "bitter" veteran players.
    But i chose not to call everyone "bitter"
    I really don't know what made them bitter and if there is even a solution for them. Maybe some found their soul in Classic, but seeing how it is being roflstomped, I wonder what they really found.

    They might call us sheep for still enjoying the game...you can apply that to so many things...some ppl stick through the rocky parts of a relationship, others quit. And yeah..we don't even knows what defines a "Veteran player". Maybe I am one? I mean..I have the statue that Blizzard send me for playing 10 years, but in the eyes of some (that might thmeselves call them Veteran players) it makes me a Blizzard shill.

    Anyway...Veteran player here who thinks he has a soul and still finds stuff to enjoy (and yet I didn't pre-order SL)

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by relaxok View Post
    Well if you believe the developers, the players have pushed all those things.

    Players pushed for QoL changes, players complained about too many buttons, players wanted to be able to do content with their friends regardless of class (‘bring the player not the class‘), players thought all the stats on gear were confusing and didn’t know when an upgrade was an upgrade
    Windury+warrior only feels good when you're a warrior, too.

    Dodge/parry as a stat is useless as it does nothing but just put gear that only 1 primadonna class could really equip. Crit > parry conversions are more interesting and allows more more usable gear all over for everyone.
    Mana regen stats was a direct balance situation, bc when int gave mana, it basically made the game near to unplayable for healers in bad gear. That's also why they did the many Healing into spellpower conversions, as well as the whole removal of spellpower.

    Most items with effects were outright bad. There'd be 1 good proc weapon each tier, sometimes you'd have no good proc weapons for an entire expansion.

    That guy kral never knows what he's talking about.

  5. #105
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post

    Who asked them to kill off professions?
    Who asked them to prune the shit out of classes?
    Who asked them to remove unique Classes synergies (such as Windfury Totem + Warrior)?
    Who asked them to remove any defensive stats (Dodge, Parry, defense) or Mana regen stats (Spirit, Mp5)?
    Who asked them to turn almost any items into a bland copy of each that has: Stamina, Primary Stats and two secondary stats?
    While I am puzzled about how professions turned out, there were plenty of complaints how you "must bring class x" and asked for other classes to get unique abilities like Bloodlust. But nice questions, you got us here..we cannot link to a post where somebody asked for that specific change.

    And in some cases you do not need players to "ask" for it..I mean..it isn't game design on demand. What I want from my devs is to actually design something and come up with stuff. Otherwise, you might also ask:

    -Who asked for instanced raids and dungeons
    -Who asked for an Outland x-pac
    -Who asked to introduce flying
    -Who asked for pet battles
    -Who asked for Pandaria
    -Who asked for an AU
    -Who asked for different raid and dungeon difficulties

    ...and so on

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostile View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't making a good game make the most money for them?
    Short term, no.

    Long term, yes, but many game developers and shareholders don't seem to understand that, for some strange reason...
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
    Holyfury armory

  7. #107
    The Patient LuckyOne's Avatar
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    Many of the older players are salty/mad because they don't understand a simple concept.

    It is normal to lose interest in something over time.
    Even when you take pauses from time to time and the devs try to change it up every so often, in it's heart this is still the same game and the above stated is absolutely normal.

    So instead of letting it go they are overly critical trying to find flaws everywhere and since it's anyways pretty meta to bash the big companys... yeah.
    Last edited by LuckyOne; 2020-05-16 at 09:14 PM.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    thats literaly imposible,i loved the game in classic,but now i cant stand it,sure i got some nostalgia...but its not the same,not even close

    its both really,the game has changed from the time we fell in love with it,and we cant recreate those feelings all these years later
    So you just explained it yourself. You changed, Classic didn't.
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
    Holyfury armory

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    So you just explained it yourself. You changed, Classic didn't.
    well,to be fair classic did change

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    well,to be fair classic did change
    Not as much as you'd think. You still got the classic experience if you wanted it.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    Not as much as you'd think. You still got the classic experience if you wanted it.
    yeah but,in my original post i ment the game over the years changing,and me not feeling in classic as i did in vanila,thats why i said its both

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It's difficult to stay as enthusiastic about a game after 10-15 years than when you first start up with it. Very few can do that. It has nothing to do with soul or any crap like that. It's just human nature that things get old after a bit. Frankly, for most casual players, the game hasn't changed all that much since vanilla with one exception which I'll get to. I know people will react in horror to that but WoW is instantly recognizable, the world looks better but pretty much the same, there are more races and classes but all of the old ones are still there.

    The one exception: classes and specs. If you learned the game one way and then come back to it some distant time later and everything is way different, a lot of people are going to poke at it and then say no, no thanks. So that's a hard thing. Leave classes/specs static and it would be insufferable after a few years. Change them all the time and a lot of people won't much enjoy their experience when they return.

    Cost is another thing. So is getting older and just moving on to things like family, work and other stuff. These things are really important to most adults, much more important than setting aside a few nights a week to raid.

    So I'm firmly on the side that we've all changed a lot more than the game. You can either deal with that or not. Games, as such, don't have soul. This game, specifically, has become somewhat tedious with all of the math and theory-crafting that goes on behind it. The game is way over-engineered and while easy to learn our asshole community demands that you understand more crap than any casual player is interested in knowing or understanding. So fuck them. Another run through Skyrim is more fun than putting up with that crap.

    And boom, another player gone forever.

    People generally play video games to relax. Blizzard has slowly shifted away from a relaxing experience to something quite different. Part of this is their preference, part of it is responding to players like themselves. This quite easily explains why people come back at the start of an expansion, level a character, see the sights and log out after a month or two not to return until the next expansion.

    EDIT: A few last words about sense of wonder: Come to Arizona and see the Grand Canyon for the first time you're likely to be overwhelmed with "sense of wonder" about what you're looking at. Come see the Grand Canyon every day for 10 years, make a fucking job out it, and your sense of wonder index is going to be about zero. This is human nature. It's natural. It's stupid to imagine that after years and years of living in any world you're going to feel the same way about it as you did when you first saw it.

    The only thing that is going to be attractive to most players about World of Warcraft after this many years is story. Blizzard is mostly failing on this front. Storylines are generally bombastic, obvious and rather stupid. The best moments in almost any of the last couple of expansions has been with 2nd-level story lines and characters. A lot of smaller stories is going to have a better chance of being engaging than what they're doing now. Story is very subjective and Blizzard has always assigned it to second or third place. That's a mistake in my view. Story is really now what the game needs to be about. Finding different ways of swinging a sword or casting a spell and the math behind it just isn't what a lot of people are interested in.
    I like this new version of MoanaLisa better

    When it comes to the story, i fall victim to the "bitter veteran player syndrome" and never read quest text
    I would need to re-program my brain to read and pay attention to every single quest about the covenants and the current situation of shadowlands.
    Will i do it?
    This is the 3rd expansion i said to myself, "im so excited i will read all quest texts this time!"
    This is also the 3rd expansion in a row i fail to do it.

    I can do it perfectly in other Dungeon & Dragons games alike...and i even feel the dopamine in said games...
    Not in WoW...
    My brain is messed up...i cant do it for some reason, unless i force myself into it...which im not sure if will result in "fun" or "frustration".

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    I mean the game was considered baby's first MMO by pretty much everyone in the MMO scene. It was incredibly accessible to a very wide range of players. Many never played a game before tried and WoW as their first game. So saying they tried to appeal to an even wider audience is asinine considering it was for everyone back in 2004. They did, however, make top end activities that required massive amounts of time investments and guild participation more accessible to those with out said time to invest or desire to participate in guilds. Same audience, more accessibility. But that is Blizzard in a nutshell, make games they like accessible and appealing to the masses.
    You realize as you say this that the majority of the game has gotten easier right? Sure dungeon and raiding has gotten harder depending on the mode but the world itself is so neutered now that is it clear the bar was lowered.

    I never really got the argument that wow was designed around casuals... its the same logic that accessibility is good. It all hangs on one article over a decade old that mentions it in passing and just like the accessibility is good argument the second its clarified people drop it.

    Still lets say your right and wow was the super easy casual mmo... why did it keep getting easier?

  14. #114
    People who think themself as "veteran" are already lost. It's a game, not WW2. If you have to call yourself a veteran, then it's no longer a game to you and it's already gone too far.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    While I am puzzled about how professions turned out, there were plenty of complaints how you "must bring class x" and asked for other classes to get unique abilities like Bloodlust. But nice questions, you got us here..we cannot link to a post where somebody asked for that specific change.
    The issue here is, if you do not implement virtually anything on Player demand, you cannot behind "the community wanted this" as well.
    The game's design has not been up for a popular vote where you can turn around say "you voted for this" after it turns out to be a shite decision.

    At the end of the day, the devs hold absolute power over what goes into the game and the players have no power at all.
    Blaming the community for anything of what has been implemented into the game is just shortsighted.

    The devs set their priorities of how the game should look like, not the players.
    Quote Originally Posted by relaxok View Post
    players complained about too many buttons
    I would seriously read the threads where this was actually a popular opinion Pre WoD.
    Like really.
    Quote Originally Posted by relaxok View Post
    players thought all the stats on gear were confusing and didn’t know when an upgrade was an upgrade
    Huh?
    The earliest instances of gearing were far more simpler than what we have today.
    Get Hitcapped, stack Crit / Spellpower / AP / Str / Agi, that's about it.

    Now figure out whether a Haste / Vers belt is better than a Crit / Mastery one.
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    you would never get full hit,you got your defensive stats to the point where any hit would be a block,dodge or parry,yes druids couldnt do this
    Dodge / Parry didn't become useless after being Crush immune, the difference between Blocking a hit and Dodge / Parrying it is still massive.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-05-16 at 10:28 PM.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Isiolia View Post
    People who think themself as "veteran" are already lost. It's a game, not WW2. If you have to call yourself a veteran, then it's no longer a game to you and it's already gone too far.
    I mean that isn't what the word means... so no

  17. #117
    here's my problem imho.. they keep trying to re-created the game then scrapping it ..then starting from 0 again ,, there have been so many changes over the past expansion its crazy.. you literally have to learn the game over and over and over and over again..some players are still stuck in draenor .. the expansion and the rules and skill are so different every single time.. the only consistency I see is there are always going to be roaches and beetles and spiders and naga and murlocs the game ..everything else is new all the time... new skill new trees new.. way to play your class adding systems on top of systems .. .and horde against the alliance but they even took that way now..

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspark View Post
    Making a good game costs money. Making and reusing cheap shitty repeatable "content" like mobile games have is much cheaper. Also, holding onto developers that actually have passion and want to make a good game costs more than just getting people who don't care and are there for the paycheck.
    Surely if the content was shit, wow wouldn't be the bigger MMO on the market?

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    You realize as you say this that the majority of the game has gotten easier right? Sure dungeon and raiding has gotten harder depending on the mode but the world itself is so neutered now that is it clear the bar was lowered.

    I never really got the argument that wow was designed around casuals... its the same logic that accessibility is good. It all hangs on one article over a decade old that mentions it in passing and just like the accessibility is good argument the second its clarified people drop it.

    Still lets say your right and wow was the super easy casual mmo... why did it keep getting easier?
    Have you ever played an MMO pre WoW? If so you would understand. From the onset, leveling was made to be able to be done solo. EQ required grouping from around level 15 or so early on. It was near impossible to level alone to level cap. Right there was the first nod to casuals.

    There was no death exp loss penalty. In EQ you could lose levels and lose access to your corpse because certain areas were level restricted. Meaning you had to lose your shit, relevel just to find your corpse. Second nod.

    Rested exp bonus. Blizzard encouraged players to not play all the time with rested exp bonus. 3rd nod.

    How about ! and ? above quest givers. In Older MMO you had to /hail /quest and whatnot to talk to NPCs and get quests. You also had to remember keywords and use them or you couldn't get incomplete quests. 4th nod.

    Instanced dungeos and raids. No longer did groups and guilds have to share space and compete for boss kills. Each group had their own instance. 5th nod.

    How about resetting mobs. No longer did you have to worry about forever lengthening trains of death. In WoW mobs de-aggro'd and rest after a certain distance. 6th nod.

    I mean if you don't understand hope that clears things up. As for getting easier it's not really. Most people have access to raid gear now. Starting off with raid gear puts you lightyears ahead of a fresh boosted toon.

    Knowledge of the game makes things seem easier as well. When WoW started most were new to MMOs and even vets of the genre didn't know they systems, synergies, nor how classes exactly worked. Took time. As that knowledge grew so did online resources. So we have way more knowledge than we had at the start so it all seems a bit easier now.

    Dungeons and raids have definately gotten harder. Even some mobs, normal, rare, and elite have special attacks and slight mechanics which weren't really present in the early days outside of interrupting a spell or moving out of a heavily telegraphed slam.

    Systems, spells, and abilities have become more complex as well. We just have as a player base, more personal knowledge about the game and more resources to gain knowledge than ever before.

    I think you be conflating time with difficulty. Things do take less time, in part from our knowledge and they way the gsme is designed around rewarding short bursts. Just like may conflate things taking a long time meaning difficult in Vanilla. It's just not the case.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Isiolia View Post
    People who think themself as "veteran" are already lost. It's a game, not WW2. If you have to call yourself a veteran, then it's no longer a game to you and it's already gone too far.
    You may want to check the definition of 'veteran'

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