Do humans have a just reason to hate blood elves for joining the horde?

[Yarathir]

Legion
Thalyssra: The Nightborne will rejoin the world, but not as conquerors.

BfA
Sylvanas: Hey girl, want to go slaughter your distant kin?
Thalyssra: You know it, girlfriend! Tyrande expressed reasonable concern while the Horde flat out lied by showing only Silvermoon!

"How can you assure me you're not the next Azshara.. the next Elisande?"
"How dare you? The very gall to even accuse us, the noble Nightborne, of something so heinous. Why, I ought to burn your whole tree down."
"What was that last part?"
"Oh? That? Nothing. Well, if you don't mind, we'll be joining the Horde because you're not willing to welcome us a hug and a foot massage."

[Beloren]

Theramore was a military target. It helped the Alliance with supplies and troop movement into Kalimdor to attack the Horde ever since Vanilla. It invaded Durotar with base camps in Cataclysm, with confirmed plans in place to attack the Valley of Trials, Razor Hill, and Orgrimmar itself. It moved into the ruins of Tiragarde Keep in Durotar to use as a base against the Horde. It then actively aided the Alliance as military combatants in the Barrens in Cataclysm a full year before the end when Garrosh finally attacked them back. Jaina mistakes desiring peace and fighting to end a conflict for that purpose, with being an innocent neutral party who can't be attacked.

None of this was mentioned in Tides of War or War Crimes because Blizzard refuses to write a nuanced story, forcing players to do the digging and defend their characters for them. They wouldn't even let Garrosh say anything about his reasons for attacking besides "rawr lok'tar ogar, me kill humans," which presented the story to the average joe who doesn't pay much attention to the quests, only the broader narrative Blizzard wants to tell, as being completely black and white.

I wish those quests didn't exist so that Jaina didn't come across as a crazy hypocrite who thinks it's okay to get involved in a conflict and then cry neutrality and innocence. She can be mad all she likes that she put her hand in the cookie jar and got slapped for it, but it's frustrating for a player who knows those things happened to watch her pretend she wasn't. And if she wasn't, then she's just an incompetent leader who has no idea what her troops are doing and has no control over them.

The only way to reconcile this is to consider anything that contradicts Blizzard's normie narratives they tell to be non-canon, so that Theramore can be a perfectly innocent non-military non-Alliance base that never touched the Horde one bit and gave them no reason to attack at all.

I suspect much of this is the backbone of the story they figure out and decide on is the main reason, though it doesn't always come out in the game content - or often doesn't. This is because I suspect what we see in texts on screen or voice is very streamlined, minimum information only, and relies on us filling in the blanks.

But to be honest many of these blanks are pretty straight forward if you know the background

[Ardenaso]

But they're being run into the ground by that partnership, and I'd say the blood pact was broken when the orcs turned on the trolls and Tauren under Garrosh. At some point, Baine should be like "What is my motivation for sending my people across the world to fight in Stromgarde? Seems like our only problems we have to deal with are quilboar and centaur still. We should just come back home, be secure, and keep an eye on those two groups while the orcs and undead do their bloodthirsty murderous thing."

Same with trolls. They should be like "Let's go and move into Zul'Gurub, Zul'Farrak, and force the forest trolls at Jintha'Alor to join the Horde and move into that big city as well."

And Blood Elves should be like "Why don't we pull back all our troops from fighting for the Horde and focus on wiping out the Scourge in Quel'thalas and rebuilding our holdings there while doing our best to clean it up of all the Scourge corruption?"

The races need their own motivations and goals they're working toward. WoW's lore sucks unless your favorite group is Orgrimmar or Stormwind.

"You saved me from dying, so now I'm gonna die fighting people you hate who I have no quarrel with forever instead" is just dumb. It's like "You saved us, so we'll become a farm you can periodically harvest soldiers from to be thrown into the meat grinder of your war machine. We'll die horribly anyway, just more staggered and not so fast that we go extinct like we would have before."

Fair enough. Makes me think maybe Cairne and Vol'jin should've bailed out of the Horde the moment Garrosh was already being problematic and made their own Horde with other Earthen Ring Orcs and Broken Draenei

[Minikin]

BEs never reprimanded humans for Arthas and Garithos (who has never even been mentioned in WoW). That's an argument BEs fans come up with on the forums to delude themselves that the Alliance is more evil than it actually is.

Humans dont give a shit if BEs joined the Horde because they know they won't stay loyal to the Warchief whenever there's a faction war going on.

Lol defo parts of this.

Scenario A:
" hey guys be joined alliance. "
"Oh cool horde can suck it some more"
Scenario B:
"Guys be are still horde"
"Lol good next time a warchief puts a toe out of line we got all these ppl to help us smack them"

[Gann Stonespire]

But they're being run into the ground by that partnership, and I'd say the blood pact was broken when the orcs turned on the trolls and Tauren under Garrosh. At some point, Baine should be like "What is my motivation for sending my people across the world to fight in Stromgarde? Seems like our only problems we have to deal with are quilboar and centaur still. We should just come back home, be secure, and keep an eye on those two groups while the orcs and undead do their bloodthirsty murderous thing."

How many times must it be said that Baine does not care about the Tauren, remember he sat back and watched whilst the tauren in the barrens were butchered and Mulgore's gate was being sieged.

As for the rest of the tauren, if they don't stay in the Horde, the Alliance, especially the Dwarves will massacre them and take all their land. See the Alliance's approval of the massacres done by Bael'dun.

[Reyuna]

Garithos.

#thread

[MikeBogina]

Looking from a High Elf PoV, being allied to the humans has caused them problem after problem. Human Guardian brings Orcs into the world and they attack and kill many of the High Elves. Human Prince joins the Scourge and attacks and kills 90% of the population. Human leader of the Alliance sends them on suicide missions and sentences the entire race and it's leader to death... Starting to look like the Human's can F off at this point lol.
Then you have the human's new allies trying to sabotage the Blood Elves while they try to recover from the Scourge, the only people offering to help you is the Forsaken and the Horde, then when the Blood Elves are thinking of rejoining the Alliance even after all the stuff the Alliance has done to them, the leader of Dalaran forces it to join the Alliance and begins slaughtering and imprisoning the blood elven populace(who might I add, aren't even in the horde), something even Varian was pissed about.

So no I dont think the Humans have any right to be mad at the Blood Elves and if anything, the Blood Elves have every right to hate the Humans, and be against any involvement where a Human has authority over them.

"How dare you? The very gall to even accuse us, the noble Nightborne, of something so heinous. Why, I ought to burn your whole tree down."

I lol'd pretty hard at that last part xD

[ravenmoon]

Looking from a High Elf PoV, being allied to the humans has caused them problem after problem. Human Guardian brings Orcs into the world and they attack and kill many of the High Elves. Human Prince joins the Scourge and attacks and kills 90% of the population. Human leader of the Alliance sends them on suicide missions and sentences the entire race and it's leader to death... Starting to look like the Human's can F off at this point lol.
Then you have the human's new allies trying to sabotage the Blood Elves while they try to recover from the Scourge, the only people offering to help you is the Forsaken and the Horde, then when the Blood Elves are thinking of rejoining the Alliance even after all the stuff the Alliance has done to them, the leader of Dalaran forces it to join the Alliance and begins slaughtering and imprisoning the blood elven populace(who might I add, aren't even in the horde), something even Varian was pissed about.

So no I dont think the Humans have any right to be mad at the Blood Elves and if anything, the Blood Elves have every right to hate the Humans, and be against any involvement where a Human has authority over them.


I lol'd pretty hard at that last part xD

Then they should forgive the Night elves right? I mean, the high elves insisted on continuing magic, but unlike the Shend'ralar and Suramar night elves, they actually taught it to humans, and it is humans recless use of magic that started attracting demons afterall, eventually leading to how Sargeras could subvert Aegwyn a nd her unborn child, that eventually leads to the orcs and the invasion of the legion.

One could argue that if they had upheld the ban, which was in place for the sole purpose of preventing the legion from returning (and not some fan made headcanon of hating the arcane), then this wouldn't have happened. The high elves really have the fault lying with them. Without them, humans would be none the wiser to true magic.

But knowing them, they'd probably blame the night elves for not wiping them out, like the penalty of breaking the ban demanded.

[Tanaria]

No, the High elves warned the Humans of the reckless use of magic. They were told about what would happen of reckless use. This did lead to the Convocation of Silvermoon, getting involved with the affairs of Dalaran in the early stages, to ensure law and order were upheld.

The fault of the demons' interest in Azeroth will always be that of Xavius, Azshara and the Zin-Azshari Highborne, who either became Satyr or Naga.

Also, Quel'Thalas took measures to ensure that their lands were protected from the ever watchful gaze of Sargeras. That is an amazing feat of strength. What were the other Highborne groups doing? Suramar's Highborne were siphoning off the Eye of Aman'thul and becoming addicted to it. The Shen'dralar had summoned and contained a demon and were siphoning the fel and demonic essence to sustain themselves. They put the whole of Feralas at risk. The Shandaral were stealing from the Blue Dragonflight and got themselves killed for it.
It's only the Highborne who followed Dath'remar Sunstrider, who took careful measures and these measures are why Quel'Thalas stood firm for 7000+ years. Not even the enslaved Dragons could pierce the Bandinoriel.

[Ardenaso]

Garithos.

#thread

He was asking about Humans hating Blood Elves, not the other way around

[Magnagarde]

The blood elves have unnecessarily thrown themselves into the camp of the Alliance's adversaries and there's no good story reason for it. To speak of just reasons and justifications would imply there is a sufficient enough amount of logical/decent storytelling to evaluate, which there isn't. Blizzard or to be more specific, Chris Metzen, intended to make high elves an Alliance race, but it was ultimately swapped out because "my pretties in the Horde?" and the Alliance got the draenei, resulting in the storytellers having to scramble for a plot that makes sense to have blood elves become part of the Horde. They came up with an "invasion plan" by the night elves and there's that. The blood elves would've made the most sense as a faction to raise your reputation with, with the high elves present in the Alliance since WoW's beginning actually becoming playable.

There's nothing just about that whole arc when looking at it from an out of character angle, let alone a continuous, story-driven in character arc; it's an arc that came to be because a specific ethic group was being cattered to over aesthetics. This has had a huge impact on the lore overall because if this hadn't happened, then the draenei wouldn't have been part of the Alliance and that puts into question everything that could've potentially happened once TBC was over with. How Legion would pan out, whether it would even happen at all and what the dynamics of an eventual WoD-like expansion would've been is all up in the air... in the scenario that was supposed to be.

Whether humans have reasons to hate blood elves? I guess they have just as much reason as the blood elves have to hate the gnomes or worgen; they fly the other faction's banner and that's what it basically boils down to.

[Aquamonkey]

Then they should forgive the Night elves right? I mean, the high elves insisted on continuing magic, but unlike the Shend'ralar and Suramar night elves, they actually taught it to humans, and it is humans recless use of magic that started attracting demons afterall, eventually leading to how Sargeras could subvert Aegwyn a nd her unborn child, that eventually leads to the orcs and the invasion of the legion.

One could argue that if they had upheld the ban, which was in place for the sole purpose of preventing the legion from returning (and not some fan made headcanon of hating the arcane), then this wouldn't have happened. The high elves really have the fault lying with them. Without them, humans would be none the wiser to true magic.

But knowing them, they'd probably blame the night elves for not wiping them out, like the penalty of breaking the ban demanded.

If that's the case, then it's really the night elves' fault. I mean, the night elves insisted on kicking the high elves out. This is what led them across the world to direct conflict with the Amani and the team-up with humans, eventually leading to how Sargeras could subvert Aegwynn and her unborn child, that eventually leads to the orcs and the invasion of the Legion.

One could argue that if the night elves kept the high elves around, they could have monitored and supervised the high elves' use of magic. The night elves really have the fault lying with them. Without them, humans never would have encountered high elves and would be none the wiser to true magic.

[Ardenaso]

Well, during the quest Stay of Execution, Magister Hathorel confronts Jaina during the rescue of Baine, and says that he would have Jaina 'suffer the death of her friends - just as he had' during the Purge.

I mean she still sponsored the Purge of Dalaran proper and she is the cause of it all.

I don't mean to move the goalposts but... even if the purge is mainly linked to Jaina, the High Elves still did the killings

[ravenmoon]

If that's the case, then it's really the night elves' fault. I mean, the night elves insisted on kicking the high elves out. This is what led them across the world to direct conflict with the Amani and the team-up with humans, eventually leading to how Sargeras could subvert Aegwynn and her unborn child, that eventually leads to the orcs and the invasion of the Legion.

One could argue that if the night elves kept the high elves around, they could have monitored and supervised the high elves' use of magic. The night elves really have the fault lying with them. Without them, humans never would have encountered high elves and would be none the wiser to true magic.

True, you could say that... but the High elves knew the dire risk of using arcane magic. That particular group of highborne led by Darth'remar , had argued that the risk could be managed and steps taken to device ways any utilisation of the arcane for spells could avoid detection, however they are the ones that then tried to force their kin's hands, and it failed.. if they had stuck it out and kept persuading, they may have in time convinced their kin, and the Night elves rebuilt with a powerful source ready for the inevitable return of the Legion. In other words they could have eventually been able to demonstrate the need for the use of arcane magic.

if they had kept quiet and stayed, the humans would never have come to learn magic and lead teh LEgion.

Furthermore, it could be argued that the Night elves did do all they could. remember that Cenarius and the drudis cut them off from their connection to the well (while the source for this is unlike - don't remember if it was an interview by Metzen or another dev, one of the early websites or the RPG books which aren't canon any longer, it makes logical sense for reasons I will explain below and if it was indeed the RPG books, it will serve well to remember that many things in the rpg book that are still used for canon material, while many others are way off in other words just because it is in there doesn't mean it is incorrect, but instead, that if lore from other official sources contradicts with it, then you no longer consider it's content canon - while you can't say therefore everything in it that has no contradiction is canon, you can at least , where there is logical sense or reason to, accepet that such reasponable things are how it went down) - why logical? Let me explain.

Now cast your mind back to the accounts of the Night Elves after the sundering. No one can discover the Well of Eternity or learn to use arcane magic because on using it for spells, they could draw the legion back to the world and it is the only power source capable of creating the portals for Sargeras and his might to return right. This is why arcane magic use (not arcane itself, but rather practice of arcane) utilising the Well of Eternity is banned on pain of death. It's not out of hate or anything like that, using it is the only way the legion can come back and destroy the world, it's logical to not use it since afterall you can survive without it. And you take it very seriously given that the Leigion can destroy the world, and because of this and only this is why there is such a hheavy penalty (it doesn't make logical sense to think that such a penalty exists because a night elf can get addicted or has some racial hatred) - Follow so far?

So when some of the elves in your group use it, creating a storm that goes bad, forcing you to enact the ban's penalty of death, but you don't have the heart to kill so many of your kin, you will find another means of ensuring they can't use this power? - Makes sense so far right?

So (as one of the sources states), Cenarius and the druids sever these disobedient group of elves' natural connection to the well (I interpret this as their, elven born biological ability is severed or closed - if you read the Wheel of Time series, it's something like severing which is done to the male Aes Sedai or as the highest form of punishment to treasonous One Power users). This is the only way to ensure that they cannot use magic to trouble the world - i.e. the threat they pose to the world is neturalised, and this can effectively bcome a defacto punishments, no need to kill them if the goal is to prevent them from using magic, and you can cripple their magical ability by cutting their connection to the Well and connection to Nordrassil, magically inducing a biological change (Cenarius and the druids do this, and when you think of the the level of hate the Thalassians have for night elves, you have to think that it's more than merely banning them - it makes sense that they did something worse to them, a thing nearly as bad as dying, cutting them off from the innate magical source they are all linked to - magical elf druids would probably know how, and if not they, then a demi god who's half night elven himself will definitely no how). Not connected to the Well, they can't tap it's power, and banned from the lands, they can't draw near enough to utilise the power of the well by proximity (something any sentient being can do if they're near the source).

This is because according to WotA and other sources, the Night elves at the time thought the Well was only way the level of arcane magic they were accustomed too, the degree of magic that could draw the attention of the legion, "proper" magic could be used - or rather Legion attention drawing magic could be used.

Ofc later, as the story goes, the High elves, not only master learning to use magic from the dispersed arcane energy that is in Azeroths atmosphere thanks to the implosion of the first Well (that dispersed magic throughout the world) , but they also have a vial from the orginal Well they use to create a source of magic and are able to use it, linking themselves to a power font they successfully engineer replacing the link that was forcibly taken from them even though it's only to an artificial source - perhaps the reason it is a sunwell lies in this detail there, it had to be modified such that they could link themselves, and the Sunwell's final form is a result of the steps or process they take). They also construct the Ban'dinoriel which effectively mask the energy signature and magical activity of the elves within their borders from anyone sensitive to magic like the night elves, and any eyes in the twisting nether. Effectively achieving what Darth'remar argued could be done (and ofc we know it coudl be because in secret the Shen'dralar in Eldre'thalas and The night elves sealed away in Suramar were indulging themselves non stop).

I can also deduce that this is how the Kingdom of Quel'thalas' magical use flew under the radar, even by the time the night elves discovered it, (whenever that was, as we know Shandiris and a San'layn had met a few thousand years ago - BFA quest although it is possible they met far from Quel'thalas so she'd have been none the wiser), anyway, by this time it is quite possible that although succcessfully doing magic without the legion's notice, that the Nelves having discovered it just left it alone, especially if this was aided by the knowledge that their were dragons disguised amongst the High elves by this time, some the high elves knew off, others they did not - besides o nce the first demons start trickling in, magic abstinence becomes irrelevant - however, the Darnassian group of Nelves are in isolation of their forests, guarding the Well of Eternity dutifully from every one and killing off any sentient being who comes anywhere near it - i.e. Ashenvale forest edge being the no-go area - the point where they consider you're too close - this is why they wipe out anyone who approaches Ashenvale, including the orcs and humans in WC3, becuase they're protecting the WEll from being discvoered.

[Varodoc]

He was asking about Humans hating Blood Elves, not the other way around

Then the thread is inherently flawed as humans are not salty blood elves are not in the Alliance. They literally couldn't care even if they tried. Now they got cooler blood elves anyway.

[Tanaria]

True, you could say that... but the High elves knew the dire risk of using arcane magic. That particular group of highborne led by Darth'remar , had argued that the risk could be managed and steps taken to device ways any utilisation of the arcane for spells could avoid detection, however they are the ones that then tried to force their kin's hands, and it failed.. if they had stuck it out and kept persuading, they may have in time convinced their kin, and the Night elves rebuilt with a powerful source ready for the inevitable return of the Legion. In other words they could have eventually been able to demonstrate the need for the use of arcane magic.

They did know and they warned the Humans.
Why do you think they established Ban'dinoriel?

They did heed the concerns of the night elves - very well actually and probably better than any kaldorei has ever done before. The proof I have to give is basically pointing to the fact that it wasn't until the Third War, thanks to a disgruntled Mage, did the shield come down. Prior to that, not even Alexstrasza's corrupted brothers and sisters could penetrate the bubble.

All other Highborne groups did something that caused problems for their own kind - whilst the High Elves, they went onto pastures new and brilliant endeavors, which would last for centuries.

[ravenmoon]

They did know and they warned the Humans.
Why do you think they established Ban'dinoriel?

They did heed the concerns of the night elves - very well actually and probably better than any kaldorei has ever done before. The proof I have to give is basically pointing to the fact that it wasn't until the Third War, thanks to a disgruntled Mage, did the shield come down. Prior to that, not even Alexstrasza's corrupted brothers and sisters could penetrate the bubble.

All other Highborne groups did something that caused problems for their own kind - whilst the High Elves, they went onto pastures new and brilliant endeavors, which would last for centuries.

Maybe they thought humans were elves, they failed, in a massive oversight. Afterall, if the power of the arcane can seduce an elf, surely a human too.


But then when the humans got duped by the demons, the high elves conspired with them to cover the failure up again. Showing that they were more concerned with their indulgences than they were with seriously protecting the planet or life. I mean it took a while for Darth'remar himself to actually do something against the Queen he and his group had been helpping make portals for the demons to come now didn't it.

I could argue that

[Daevied]

The real bloodelves freed themselves from the racist oppression from the alliance and followed Kaelthas and Illidan to Outland, then shit went crazy and left without real leader so they decided to go back to Azeroth with Horde that promised to treat them as equals instead of Alliance that would treat them as third rate citizens.

Humans hates them because they are racists and cant handle their former slaves to even think that they are equal to them.

[Ardenaso]

But then when the humans got duped by the demons, the high elves conspired with them to cover the failure up again. Showing that they were more concerned with their indulgences than they were with seriously protecting the planet or life.

When was this btw

[Tanaria]

Maybe they thought humans were elves, they failed, in a massive oversight. Afterall, if the power of the arcane can seduce an elf, surely a human too.


But then when the humans got duped by the demons, the high elves conspired with them to cover the failure up again. Showing that they were more concerned with their indulgences than they were with seriously protecting the planet or life. I mean it took a while for Darth'remar himself to actually do something against the Queen he and his group had been helpping make portals for the demons to come now didn't it.

I could argue that

It wasn't a "conspiracy."
The High Elves told the Humans about the dangers, and what the Humans did afterward was down to them, but once again, the High Elves stepped up on and the Convocation of Silvermoon took charge of the early days of Dalaran.

And I've never heard so much rubbish..."protecting the planet or life." Is that why Silvermoon maintained a strong watch over Dalaran in it's earliest years. Also, what were night elves doing? Doing nothing, sleeping in dens, hiding in trees...being fully aware of what was happening in Lordaeron, during Arthas' madness and doing absolutely nothing to help.

Dath'Remar had also been working against the Queen, long before he rescued Tyrande.
And it's all too easy to blame him - it took the lowborns long enough to realize what was going on and for them to realise that it was Azshara who was commanding the forces. She wasn't being held captive at all, but the foolish night elves couldn't bring themselves to think otherwise.

Dath'Remar is a hero to all Elves. Even the Night Elves in Val'Sharah