Would Sylvanas have beaten Arthas as easily?

[sam86]

NO and if they even think about it i may actually do my first international crime

[Aucald]

I know that that's the canon explanation, but if someone ever told me that the skies parted by the sheer might of Sylvanas' arms alone, I would've believed in an instant. It's easier to believe that, actually.

She one-shotted the Saurfang;
She went 1x1 against a Lich King and it was a perfect victory for her;
She sundered a space metal helmet with her bare hands.

That elf could've removed Sargeras' blade from Silithus if she wanted.

I don't really consider the fight between her and Saurfang to be anything approaching "fair," either - much like the outcome of a fight between someone who built up their strength the natural way through hard work and exercise, and someone who was currently juicing on a cocktail of anabolic steroids and PCP. In the short-term it's not going to be a contest between who is stronger in such a showdown, but if you took away the artificial advantage the outcome might be very different.

I'd also probably argue the distinction of "a Lich King" for Bolvar - if anything, he's really just an upper-tier Death Knight and not the powerhouse that either the Ner'zhul or Arthas incarnations of the Lich King were. Not to sully Sylvanas' accomplishment in defeating him rather handily, but she had outside help - a lot of outside help, apparently. We also don't know if the Helm of Domination really has any unnatural endurance or strength of its own (e.g. it may well not be unbreakable or unnaturally tough) - breaking a metal helm is no easy feat, but WoW is full of characters who have unnatural strength. Saurfang himself might well have been able to destroy the Helm if he could best whoever had it on their head at the time.

[Varodoc]

Pretty much my thought process on the difference between Bolvar and Arthas as The Lich King. One considered himself just a jailer, using its power as a tool, while the other embraced it, and had the complete toolkit to exert his ambitions as initially conceptualized and created by Kil'jaeden. "The Lich King" isn't meant to be a jailer of the damned like Bolvar used it, it's meant to be a literal weapon of mass destruction that just obliterates any kingdom, peoples or world it's aimed at. Without Frostmourne to begin with, that power is handicapped, then add a wearer of the armor who actually has scruples, and you're fighting a simile.

Sylvanas defeated a pretender.

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Sylvanas was toying with Saurfang. Saurfang was prepared to die, he was never going to win that fight in a million years and he knew it. Not sure what his true intent was, but he got lucky that scratch made her flip out and unravel her own plans.

But he still scratched her. She couldn't react on time/parry his attack. The feat is there. Whereas Saurfang the Younger couldn't lay a finger on the Lich King.

[Adramalech]

Impossible to say because the writers can just retroactively come up with a reason for why one or the other would win. There really isn't an established system of how powers work that can lead us to a conclusion here. No pretty "power level" numbers we can look at to declare a winner (even those are useless in their own series).

I don't think there is any reason to believe the result would be any different. There's no reason to believe Arthas was that much more powerful than Bolvar to change the result of that fight, other than fanboying over one and not the other. Amount of souls shouldn't be that much different between the two that it would make a significant difference. It's not like we wiped out the Scourge or went to any effort of reducing their numbers after Arthas was killed. Plus Bolvar has been raising new undead, even if it's not at a rate comparable to Arthas.

Unless the writers tell us that yes, Arthas would win because [insert reason], I have no reason to believe she wouldn't have stomped him the way she stomped Bolvar with her current death juice.

[Shinrael]

Yes, her ever-increasing and ill-defined jailor powers only exist as a sledgehammer for blizzards 'writers' to use to have Sylvanas move the plot forward.
Never underestimate how strong a character can become when a bad writer needs them to move from A to B but can't think of a way to do it without looking stupid.

Nah.

/10char

[Kyphael]

But he still scratched her. She couldn't react on time/parry his attack. The feat is there. Whereas Saurfang the Younger couldn't lay a finger on the Lich King.

I guess, I mean, it only solidifies the logic that Arthas Lich King stomps Jailer-Empowered Sylvanas, which I support.

[Saltysquidoon]

Nah.

Im tempted to ask.

Do you disagree that Sylvanas' powers are ill-defined and ever-increasing or are you defending blizzards writers?

[Shinrael]

Im tempted to ask.

Do you disagree that Sylvanas' powers are ill-defined and ever-increasing or are you defending blizzards writers?

I'm just tired of people who are unhappy with a story because of the events that happened and blame the writer for it :3 Like... not everyone is supposed to like the direction of a story. Doesn't mean the writer is shit.

Like the people who keep hating on Golden and blaming her for BFA's "failures" w/e they might be. I had the chance to catch up on some of her books recently and I can't possibly comprehend how people can humour her works. I too see some problems in her writing style - I am trying to be objective - but nothing like this CLUELESS bunch is making it out to be :/

You humans just can't appreciate things in life, can you :/

EDIT: And to answer your question - whatever her powers and their source may be, we don't know enough about them now to judge them. We will in Shadowlands. And even then it is up to personal taste, so don't aim your pitchforks at others, because not everyone is part of the (nowadays mainstream sadly) "let's hate on everything" bandwagon. We have been given hints that something is going on with her since the start of Legion and they have been hinting that they want to do something with her since WotLK. And now we see what's going on. It's not "well they just decided to make her god so she is OP now lel".

[AwkwardSquirtle]

At her current power level, perhaps not. However, the Jailer wouldn't have played his hand if victory were not assured. He would have waited and made Sylvanas more powerful until she could curbstomp Arthas.

[aceperson]

it's basically impossible for anyone to really say. no one actually knows how much of the power arthas had came from frostmourne. though if arthas was the lich king in the cinematic, sylvanas would've still won since plot convenience. considering arthas wipes the floor with the 10/25 people who challenge him in his fight, you can't even use the boss fight as a close-ish example.

[sam86]

After Wrath players have had the privilege of using Demi level weapons against major bosses.

People forget that without those the players would have lost often and hard.

Cata we had the dragons and thrall help us,

Panadería we had Cloak

WoD a powerful ring

Legion the artifact weapons and legendary gear

BFA heart of Azeroth, Azerite armor and a cloak.

and we won every single one of them, so still can't be compared to be one shot when he got bored btw

[Thage]

Yes, her ever-increasing and ill-defined jailor powers only exist as a sledgehammer for blizzards 'writers' to use to have Sylvanas move the plot forward.
Never underestimate how strong a character can become when a bad writer needs them to move from A to B but can't think of a way to do it without looking stupid.

Basically, this. Sylvanas, like many characters in Warcraft lore as of WoD, is exactly as powerful as the plot needs her to be. Right now, the plot needs her to be unstoppable, so every character who goes toe to toe with her is easily dispatched while she monologues about the evils of altruism and hope, like someone who read Atlas Shrugged and the collected writings of Nietzsche in high school and to this day, insists it changed her life, and whose emotional and intellectual development remains permanently arrested at 15.

This is the same Sylvanas who died to a single gunshot to the back of the head, a feat the current Sylvanas would likely laugh off before talking about how "It's not a phase, DAD! The universe is totally bleak and meaningless!" It's kinda like the current writing team forgot that at Blizzard, you're not supposed to say the quiet part out loud and let bleak settings speak for themselves; if your bleak setting needs a nihilistic mouthpiece to blather on and on about how cruel it is, you're not doing a good job of designing a bleak setting.

[shadowmatrix]

Lets set aside plot direction since that always wins, when you know the big secrets of your opponent's armor and weapon you have a massive advantage. Add in her being the one who decided the time of the attack and its location, Sylvanis came into the fight with most factors in her favor. Also many of the Lich King's powers are most effective against living beings so we can't say just how they would affect an undead banshee.

[sam86]

This is the same Sylvanas who died to a single gunshot to the back of the head

did u forget ? they shitconned on lore and made that 'part of her plans', she planned everything since before wrathgate, including her fucking suicide after wrath ends yet she planned valkyrs will literally sacrifice their lives to save her because that's how genius she is

don't try to make sense, they just use the rule of 'kool' to make anything, there is zero logic how she planned everything (according to them) since before wrathgate, she almost died in wrathgate, she did die in her suicide after wrath, she got shot and killed in cata, but hey that's all part of her 'plans' because she is so genius she dies for breakfast

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Lets set aside plot direction since that always wins, when you know the big secrets of your opponent's armor and weapon you have a massive advantage. Add in her being the one who decided the time of the attack and its location, Sylvanis came into the fight with most factors in her favor. Also many of the Lich King's powers are most effective against living beings so we can't say just how they would affect an undead banshee.

did u miss HoR in wrath?

[Aucald]

Im tempted to ask.

Do you disagree that Sylvanas' powers are ill-defined and ever-increasing or are you defending blizzards writers?

Sylvanas' powers aren't necessarily ill-defined, they're currently (and pointedly) unknown as we know next to nothing about her benefactor the Jailer - what his powers are, what he's capable of, etc. etc. This is a time-honored narrative device and plot point, it's not "bad writing" or whatever the criticism de jure happens to be. She's being empowered, we know this - we don't know how powerful her benefactor is, but we do know it's enough that his power plus her own allows her to defeat Bolvar without him being that much of a threat to her. The narrative has already been at pains to show her power is growing and has been since Cataclysm.

[Tyrathius]

Yes, her ever-increasing and ill-defined jailor powers only exist as a sledgehammer for blizzards 'writers' to use to have Sylvanas move the plot forward.
Never underestimate how strong a character can become when a bad writer needs them to move from A to B but can't think of a way to do it without looking stupid.

This.

People trying to compare feats or whatever are missing the point. Blizzard doesn't care about continuity. They just write whatever they feel like, and right now, that is Sylvanas being a supervillain who beats up everybody. If Arthas were in her way now, she'd crush him just like she crushed Bolvar, Saurfang, and Malfurion. Not because it makes sense, because the people writing the story don't care if it makes sense.

[TigTone]

and we won every single one of them, so still can't be compared to be one shot when he got bored btw

That’s what I’m trying to get at. Arthas is one few bosses we faced without the help of overpowered gear and we lost.

Ashbringer is what killed Arthas.

[Saltysquidoon]

Sylvanas' powers aren't necessarily ill-defined, they're currently (and pointedly) unknown as we know next to nothing about her benefactor the Jailer - what his powers are, what he's capable of, etc. etc. This is a time-honored narrative device and plot point, it's not "bad writing" or whatever the criticism de jure happens to be. She's being empowered, we know this - we don't know how powerful her benefactor is, but we do know it's enough that his power plus her own allows her to defeat Bolvar without him being that much of a threat to her. The narrative has already been at pains to show her power is growing and has been since Cataclysm.

My original point about the bad writing wasn't related to her power being ever-increasing or ill-defined. It was about people always being as strong as the plot needs them to be, which in my opinion is bad writing (or at least a bad style of writing). I'd prefer it if 'power levels' were clearer and weaker people (which isn't to say I think sylvanas is weaker then bolvar) used clever tactics to win fights as opposed to just being as strong as the plot needs them to be.

That goes both ways with sylvanas' fight with bolvar. I enjoyed the concept of building up the sneaky chains as the fight wore on (although admittedly I think it would have been cooler if it looked like she was losing until she pulled off the chains), however, just randomly gaining hitherto unknown chain powers offscreen (presumably from the jailor) is almost 'oh my rubber nen' tier.

[Aucald]

My original point about the bad writing wasn't related to her power being ever-increasing or ill-defined. It was about people always being as strong as the plot needs them to be, which in my opinion is bad writing (or at least a bad style of writing). I'd prefer it if 'power levels' were clearer and weaker people (which isn't to say I think sylvanas is weaker then bolvar) used clever tactics to win fights as opposed to just being as strong as the plot needs them to be.

That goes both ways with sylvanas' fight with bolvar. I enjoyed the concept of building up the sneaky chains as the fight wore on (although admittedly I think it would have been cooler if it looked like she was losing until she pulled off the chains), however, just randomly gaining hitherto unknown chain powers offscreen (presumably from the jailor) is almost 'oh my rubber nen' tier.

In this case external circumstances dictate the outcome as we *know* Bolvar wasn't going to defeat and/or kill Sylvanas, because we know Sylvanas is a prime-mover for the upcoming expansion's narrative arc. The outcome is more or less preordained, and this isn't the fault of the characterization, power levels, or either party's natural (or unnatural) skills - it simply is. The tactics Sylvanas used in her fight with Bolvar were in keeping with her character - she's toying with him, because she knows (due to her empowerment via the Jailer) that he's not a true threat to her, she's got a proverbial ace up her sleeve. He still manages to surprise her at times with his own power, getting close to tagging her in the midst of his version of Remorseless Winter, but she still holds the trump card.

Sylvanas doesn't saunter into combat she isn't assured she'll win, just as with Saurfang she only met his challenge once she in a position where her victory was secure. Her entire ascent up Icecrown Citadel is more or less a power-play, her way of telling and showing Bolvar he's powerless against her, which proves disastrously true - I think all the narrative markers line up to show this, and the outcome was what it was. Personally, I would've liked Bolvar to get some licks in there as well, perhaps put her more on the defensive in a few places (e.g. a blow we see make a solid connection as in the duel with Saurfang), but at the end of the day it's not necessary in the narrative sense. The underlying concept between Bolvar and Sylvanas' duel as Sylvanas basically saying "I am beyond this and you, now" and the story bears it out.

I'm still holding out for a rematch, especially one where Sylvanas loses the support of her benefactor and is forced to fight Bolvar on a more equal footing.

[Saltysquidoon]

In this case external circumstances dictate the outcome as we *know* Bolvar wasn't going to defeat and/or kill Sylvanas, because we know Sylvanas is a prime-mover for the upcoming expansion's narrative arc. The outcome is more or less preordained, and this isn't the fault of the characterization, power levels, or either party's natural (or unnatural) skills - it simply is. The tactics Sylvanas used in her fight with Bolvar were in keeping with her character - she's toying with him, because she knows (due to her empowerment via the Jailer) that he's not a true threat to her, she's got a proverbial ace up her sleeve. He still manages to surprise her at times with his own power, getting close to tagging her in the midst of his version of Remorseless Winter, but she still holds the trump card.

Sylvanas doesn't saunter into combat she isn't assured she'll win, just as with Saurfang she only met his challenge once she in a position where her victory was secure. Her entire ascent up Icecrown Citadel is more or less a power-play, her way of telling and showing Bolvar he's powerless against her, which proves disastrously true - I think all the narrative markers line up to show this, and the outcome was what it was. Personally, I would've liked Bolvar to get some licks in there as well, perhaps put her more on the defensive in a few places (e.g. a blow we see make a solid connection as in the duel with Saurfang), but at the end of the day it's not necessary in the narrative sense. The underlying concept between Bolvar and Sylvanas' duel as Sylvanas basically saying "I am beyond this and you, now" and the story bears it out.

I'm still holding out for a rematch, especially one where Sylvanas loses the support of her benefactor and is forced to fight Bolvar on a more equal footing.

I understand blizzard doesn't have infinite freedom with WoW (compared to say a novel or single-player game) so yes shadowlands was locked in as the destination and there was no chance bolvar was going to crush he skull and save the day. That said, blizzard is free to write how we get to shadowlands however they want.

I'm not sure I agree that the flawless victory was necessary or desirable, even just getting on hit in can still make a first-time viewer go 'holy shit maybe she'll lose' even if for a second or subconsciously to increase the tension. As it stands anyone who's played legion or bfa went in knowing she was going to roll him and nothing in the cinematic shook that veiw. I'm also not sure it was the best decision to make her empowerment by the jailor over bfa basically entirely happen off-screen. I mean the last time we really saw sylvanas do anything it was lose to Malfurion, now she can one-shot saurfang with FoD and beat bolvar with deathchains.

I mean it's possible the shadowlands prepatch/intro quest will have her mop the floor with the players and the ebon blade to show how powerful she is now while twirling her moustache and monologing about death and other suitably edgy things. The legion and bfa intro quests did give more context to the cinematics so it's possible.