Why aren't Tauren and Draenei just Neutral?

[Syegfryed]

Not if there is no one to spread it. I mean if you want a real-world example of a veritable black hole of news just look to North Korea - where even in the midst of the information age we can't really be sure of what's going on for a time. If Sylvanas wanted to repress the spread of news in her own dreary fiefdom she could certainly do so, and little to nothing would stop her.

IF you assume there is nothing spreading about it, and we knew it was, we knew the Leaders know more, we knew Garrosh saw with his own eyes, other solders with him saw it, there is nothing saying he and other would keep secret, Leaders have a privileged position to know things, not all, but the basic? yep, everybody kenw about Sylvanas things

I would agree, but again, you're putting a lot on Baine alone - a kind of pressure you're very obviously not putting on anyone else (e.g. Lor'themar, Eitrigg, Rokhan, Thalyssra, Talanji, Voss, or even Gallywix). Why is it Baine's sole responsbility to redeem the Horde? He opposed her, he made no bones of that - but he had his people to consider, and opposing Sylvanas' will was never what you'd call a growth industry for her detractors. The Desolate Council's fate in their graves in Arathi can attest to that.

But there was literally nothing in his shoulders, he is one of the oldest leaders and was in the horde way before those other races joined, he have more responsibility than any other leader, even more than Rokhan who was not a racial Leader, it is his responsability to do what Cairne did before, what Vol'jin did before, hell, what even Saurfang did later, he was more opposed and antagonist of with Garrosh, with sylvanas look like he was a meek ox

Sure, but that doesn't make her actions anymore moral or ethical, especially in light of the fact that she knew Zelling wasn't the real prime mover. She killed him in cold blood to prove a point, *after* Baine had already revealed himself in an attempt to deflect blame and take sole responsibility. You can say "Sylvanas was Warchief and her whim is law," but that's just a rationalization - what she did was immoral, brutal, and ultimately unnecessary. It goes to prove she's a bad leader, and the wrong kind of person to be invested with that kind of power.

The point is not about her actions being moral or ethical, we all know she was shit and all, 2 mistakes don't make one right, if she did was immoral, brutal and ultimately unnecessary was his duty to step up and defy her, even by gathering and rallying other leaders against her Like Vol'jin did

Or Sylvanas would just have Baine assassinated, the same thing she tried to do to Thrall in "Safe Haven." Sylvanas cares nothing for honor or ethics - she removes impediments such as Baine if she cannot cow or censure them. The only reason she accepted Saurfang's challenge is because she was caught in the open, unable to refuse without suffering a loss of face (and because she was goaded by Saurfang's insistence).

If you on the fly challenge someone to mak'gora you can't simple "have then assassinated", she don't care for honor and ethics? great way to los the entire support of the mob. If she dies or refuse, its a win, if Baine die by her trickery she lose all the same and they will be agaisnt her by cheating, he die by doing the horde a favor.

Knowing he would be found and being willing to face the results of his actions is stepping up to face responsibility, both thematically and definitionally.

If he step up before, he was caught, then i would agree with you, and again, if he was right, why he didn't step up against her? he just accept his faith like a meek ox.

Gul'dan and Magatha share the same sociopathic lust for power with no compunctions or moral restraints, I'd say the comparison is apt enough.

Thats a stretch yes, just because someone want power don't make then gul'dan 2.0

Magatha also wouldn't exile anyone who disobeyed her (as the Taurajo exiles did with Baine), she'd skin them and leave their hides out to dry in the Mulgore sun. Put Magatha in Baine's shoes and you wouldn't have exiles left to their own devices, you'd have dead Tauren one and all. Magatha also cares nothing for the Horde or their disagreements with the Alliance, as shown by her willingness to join up the Alliance when it suited her (as she did in Dustwallow Marsh). So she wouldn't be loyal to Garrosh or Sylvanas either, albeit for different reasons.

Maghata would not need to exile or kill the taurujo people anyway, she would prompt give then what they want.

I know Maghata isn't a good leader, but my point is she could be better than Baine, at least do something.

It would be great if that were the *only* thing a quality leader needed, but it's not. Magatha has great courage, I grant you, but her penchant for power-madness and willingness to sacrifice any and all to achieve her goals don't really help her prospects much.

And that make her just above Baine, we could thing of better taurens, but in a choice between the 2? maghata hands down, at least it could give us more interesting stories of pragmatic taurens and not peace lover alliance buddies

That comes up quite a lot i.e. Baine, and while I don't really agree with his tactic there there is one thing to note about it, which dovetails nicely with your rationalization above concerning Sylvanas: the Taurajo exiles violated their chieftain's command. As High Chieftain of the Tauren, Baine's word is law, just like Sylvanas' is as concerns the whole of the Horde. He exiled them because of their disobedience, but like Sylvanas he was well within his rights to have them killed for their insubordination. It is interesting that you would defame and ridicule Baine for enforcing his edicts but give Sylvanas a blithe pass on being terrible. Doubly so as Baine took a lighter touch with just exile as opposed to killing them in cold blood or imprisoning them without trial (which he would also be within his rights to do as High Chieftain).

i never said sylvanas was right, in the moral way, but, its law, its treason by the horde laws, defy the warchief, and there is an 'simple" way to "judge" that, mak'gora

the point with Baine is how he enforced a law that go against the horde and tauren morals, of retribution and fighting for their own people with only taking account his dumb ideals of peace, thinking more about the enemy rather than their own.

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SMhhhhh, look, by definition, a coward dosent do brave or courageous acts, which are defined as doing something you fear or otherwise risky, which is what Baine does, so you are wrong. Hes not a coward the entire expansion hes just complicit out of fear, just like every other horde member is. Why would Thrall and Saurfang want to save him otherwise?

you can try all you want, but you can't take the coward away from Baine history just because one time he had a itchy to save the brother of the enemy, and later became once again a coward accepting his faith because he feared his Leader

He wasn't brave enough to challenge Garrosh by his own motives
He wasn't brave enough to challenge Sylvanas when she genocide the elves
He wasn't brave enough to challenge Sylvanas when she killed his own tauren, resurrect then as mindless undead, exploded her city and left Saurfang and others to die
He wasn't brave enough to challenge Sylvanas when she was ripping the horde apart in the war
And He wasn't even brave enough to challenge Sylvanas directly when she was twisting the undead horde, he had to be sneaky to save him, and when he was found he just said "yes ma'an" and eat it his judgment

but no, he save enemy assert, despise her order, only that was too far,dude is so courageous and brave that erased all the cowardice he did in his entire lifetime

No I was just asking if you were an RP'er because you seem to be throwing everything out of the window to make him sound like a coward?

Excuse me, why i would not throw everything the character did to prove a character trait..?

ah, i see the problem, you are judging the character just with the Derek thing, while purposely ignoring all the rest, i understand now.

[Ielenia]

Emissary Brighthoof said nothing of that sort and in-fact said Retribution is a given right of all members of the Horde.

The warchief has no say in how a nation leader leads his people. Military? Yes. But not how to lead the population that isn't his.

Funfact Baine only fought the Northwatch forces because he was afraid of Garrosh.

Out of fear? Really? Because I distinctly remember Baine protesting every step of the way, to the point of almost making Garrosh attack him. And on top of that Garrosh and his Kor'kron were attacking any orc that showed the slight bit of dissent toward his will.

Dude is a massive coward who disrespects everything about the Horde and exiles innocent people, even civilians and people who saved his life in the past.

Such a "massive coward" that he was the only one within the Horde working to undermine the Warchief, to his knowledge, while everyone else (Rexxar, Lor'themar, Garona, etc) just did nothing. Not even spoke up when Sylvanas arrested Baine. Who, I remind you, did not cower or beg for forgiveness at that moment, and instead stood up to his ideals and against Sylvanas.

I think you're mistaking "coward" for "brave".

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no, people with no balls, like baine, are coward

It seems to be your definition of "bravery" seems to be synonymous with "suicidal stupidity".

a coward like Baine would give himself freerly and accept again, what his warchief was doing, he would be executed by his cowardice, oh wait... he did just that.

Except... he didn't. He's not a coward. He worked against the warchief, and stood his ground when confronted by Sylvanas. Again: a coward would beg for forgiveness or shift the blame to someone else.

...when he was found that, not before, not because other reasons, only when there was no other way to run

Read above.

oh sure, metaphorically speaking, the amount of mental gymnastic

The amounts of projection, here. Such lengths you go to twist the truth to paint Baine as a "coward" when he wast he only one in the Horde to actually do something on his own. Even Saurfang needed to be convinced to do the right thing as he had basically given up.

[Syegfryed]

It seems to be your definition of "bravery" seems to be synonymous with "suicidal stupidity".

call what you want, there is many things he could have done that don't fall on "yes ma'am"

Except... he didn't

he literally did... Sylvanas caught him in hot pants and what did he do, even knowing he was in the right? accept to be imprisoned like a coward...

He's not a coward. He worked against the warchief, and stood his ground when confronted by Sylvanas. Again: a coward would beg for forgiveness or shift the blame to someone else.

He worked WITH the warchief and NEVER confronted her until he was caught, and even there, he just accepted punishment, a worse coward would beg, but a coward is a coward.

The amounts of projection, here. Such lengths you go to twist the truth to paint Baine as a "coward" when he wast he only one in the Horde to actually do something on his own. Even Saurfang needed to be convinced to do the right thing as he had basically given up.

Bringing Saurfang terrible writing here isn't going to make Baine look better.

Look, isn't matter if in the end, one that, he tried to grow some balls(he didn't even tried to do something own his own for the horde, but for the enemy brother) he was a coward the entire expansion, and helping the enemy in a sneaky ass way will not remove his hat of cowardice.

At least Saurfang challenged her in the end and call out a duel, Baine? "yeah kill me im ok" LUL

[Ielenia]

call what you want, there is many things he could have done that don't fall on "yes ma'am"

Which he did. He questioned her, time and again.

he literally did... Sylvanas caught him in hot pants and what did he do, even knowing he was in the right? accept to be imprisoned like a coward...

Once again, you show that your definition of "bravery" seems to be synonymous with "suicidal stupidity". What could he possibly hope to accomplish by attacking Sylvanas outright? Aside from a meaningless death, of course. It's not cowardice to be arrested. It's bravery to still stand up to what you believe in, which Baine did.

He worked WITH the warchief and NEVER confronted her until he was caught, and even there, he just accepted punishment, a worse coward would beg, but a coward is a coward.

Sounds like someone didn't play the Horde experience at all. Baine was constantly questioning Sylvanas.

Bringing Saurfang terrible writing here isn't going to make Baine look better.

This has nothing to do with "terrible writing". It's about facts: Baine was the only one in the Horde to actually do something on his own volition.

At least Saurfang challenged her in the end and call out a duel, Baine? "yeah kill me im ok"LUL

Except that never happened.

[Aresk]

Look, isn't matter if in the end, one that, he tried to grow some balls(he didn't even tried to do something own his own for the horde, but for the enemy brother) he was a coward the entire expansion, and helping the enemy in a sneaky ass way will not remove his hat of cowardice.

At least Saurfang challenged her in the end and call out a duel, Baine? "yeah kill me im ok" LUL

I know I'm late coming into this conversation, but Derek is a member of the Forsaken and the Horde. Baine attempted to free a Horde prisoner from being used against his will for Sylvanas' scheme. He didn't need to face her directly; he left pretty much every Horde member who opposed him alive to deliver news about what had happened, with exception of those who refused to leave. As far as the confrontation in Stormsong, it's not like he could have done something differently; he was no match for Sylvanas, and she would do with him what she would regardless of any resistance he put up (which in this case was apparently using him as bait to get her own people killed, based on the Loyalist questline where she tells you to murder her troops instead of stopping the escape of Horde and Alliance leaders).

I don't see how Baine is a coward and Cairne isn't. Cairne fled from the centaur. When Baine was kidnapped by harpies, Cairne just sat there bemoaning the turn of events instead of even attempting to mount a rescue mission. The only thing I really remember Cairne doing is challenging Garrosh to mak'gora, which he only did because he was confident he would win. That's not exactly courageous.

[Syegfryed]

Which he did. He questioned her, time and again.

Question her means shit if he end doing the same way

Once again, you show that your definition of "bravery" seems to be synonymous with "suicidal stupidity".

thats just your projection

What could he possibly hope to accomplish by attacking Sylvanas outright? Aside from a meaningless death, of course. It's not cowardice to be arrested. It's bravery to still stand up to what you believe in, which Baine did.

who said a thing about attacking sylvanas outright? who said a thing about meaningless death? what about meaningful death?

Sounds like someone didn't play the Horde experience at all. Baine was constantly questioning Sylvanas.

wush, as long i keep questioning criminals, while helping then, im totally absolved for my crimes

This has nothing to do with "terrible writing". It's about facts: Baine was the only one in the Horde to actually do something on his own volition.

to save Jaina brother, he did shit about the horde situation, Sylvanas crimes or her bullshit, because he was a coward

Except that never happened.

im sure he knew very well what was going to happen when he was imprisoned by treason

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I know I'm late coming into this conversation, but Derek is a member of the Forsaken and the Horde.

He isn't... and even if he was, it was not by this reason, it was because he was jaina brother, and Sylvanas would use him to kill her

that, he could not stand anymore, not when she killed the elves, not when she killed his tauren at undercity

but, to save Jaina brother, the whole problem with the character, gave two craps about genocide and other crimes and only did something when was too late for the wrong reasons in the wrong way

Baine attempted to free a Horde prisoner from being used against his will for Sylvanas' scheme. He didn't need to face her directly;

Of course he did, like a Tauren, and member of the horde should have done, again, its blizzard terrible wiriting fault that no on in the horde knows how the horde work anymore, but Baine is being a no-balls character since Cataclysm, seems his only good move was to retake his home from Maghata

he left pretty much every Horde member who opposed him alive to deliver news about what had happened,

Kill member o the horde to save an enemy assert who is "horde", right

with exception of those who refused to leave. As far as the confrontation in Stormsong, it's not like he could have done something differently; he was no match for Sylvanas, and she would do with him what she would regardless of any resistance he put up (which in this case was apparently using him as bait to get her own people killed, based on the Loyalist questline where she tells you to murder her troops instead of stopping the escape of Horde and Alliance leaders).

It is said in one of the other books that Baine grab sylvanas with so much strength that she felt he was going to break her, something like that, Cairne, his father, was one of the most dangerous creatures alive, he could have won a mak'gora against her by the rules, and if she broke it? her entire support would go away like with Saurfang

I don't see how Baine is a coward and Cairne isn't. Cairne fled from the centaur. When Baine was kidnapped by harpies, Cairne just sat there bemoaning the turn of events instead of even attempting to mount a rescue mission. The only thing I really remember Cairne doing is challenging Garrosh to mak'gora, which he only did because he was confident he would win. That's not exactly courageous.

Cairne flee because he had no numbers to fight it, cairne didn't went for Baine when the centaurs took him because he assumed him dead already, and challenge one of the finest warriors alive, hero of northrend and Warchief of the horde is pretty ballsy, if he is confident or not.

grant it, Baine would left the centaurs kill then entirely, like the quilboars were doing.

[Kynario]

To “add” Let’s just make it orcs and humans only. The rest are just fodder might as well just take them out too.

Wait! I have an even better idea! Make
it just human vs human.
Now that’s some good fantasy story right there.
Just humans.

Human vs Human? Sounds like real-life.

World of Earthcraft? :-D

[Aucald]

IF you assume there is nothing spreading about it, and we knew it was, we knew the Leaders know more, we knew Garrosh saw with his own eyes, other solders with him saw it, there is nothing saying he and other would keep secret, Leaders have a privileged position to know things, not all, but the basic? yep, everybody kenw about Sylvanas things

Garrosh would probably no real desire to promulgate the news - we know he disapproved, but he didn't stop her either (condoning her use of the Val'kyr as necessary for the war effort). Still, neither he nor Cromush are present for what goes down in the Western Plaguelands, or at Cross Island. Garrosh saw a demonstration, nothing more, in a military context away from otherwise prying eyes. He at least was more or less on board with what Sylvanas was doing.

But there was literally nothing in his shoulders, he is one of the oldest leaders and was in the horde way before those other races joined, he have more responsibility than any other leader, even more than Rokhan who was not a racial Leader, it is his responsability to do what Cairne did before, what Vol'jin did before, hell, what even Saurfang did later, he was more opposed and antagonist of with Garrosh, with sylvanas look like he was a meek ox

Aside from what you're trying to put there because you dislike him as a character? Baine became High Chieftain of the Tauren during Garrosh's regime, when internal cohesion among the Horde was at a low ebb and getting lower, his very loyalty compromised by the fact that Garrosh killed his father Cairne. Everyone was decidedly meek before Sylvanas, as well; not just Baine (which is part and parcel of what I'm saying above). Baine at least spoke out, like Saurfang did, everyone else meekly capitulated before Sylvanas time and time again, until Baine's arrest and imprisonment finally lit a fire under them. Revising history to cast Baine in a bad light doesn't change the facts of the case - of the Horde leaders, he and Saurfang were as close as you'd get to being firebrands against Sylvanas' reign. Was he effective at it? Not really, no. But he along with Saurfang was the first to visibly rebel.

The point is not about her actions being moral or ethical, we all know she was shit and all, 2 mistakes don't make one right, if she did was immoral, brutal and ultimately unnecessary was his duty to step up and defy her, even by gathering and rallying other leaders against her Like Vol'jin did

My post was about the morality of her actions, though. "We all know it was shit" underscores the point. Sylvanas having the authority to end "traitors" doesn't really matter when she's a tyrant and driving the Horde to the precipice of doom. Baine also faced much steeper opposition than Vol'jin did, due to the apparent loyalty the rest of the Horde was showing Sylvanas, a treatment Garrosh really never enjoyed outside his zealots. Both Sylvanas' tactics and the nature of the Blood War ensured she maintained popular support, at least on a surface level.

If you on the fly challenge someone to mak'gora you can't simple "have then assassinated", she don't care for honor and ethics? great way to los the entire support of the mob. If she dies or refuse, its a win, if Baine die by her trickery she lose all the same and they will be agaisnt her by cheating, he die by doing the horde a favor.

Which we know Baine would simply lose, just like Saurfang did, given Sylvanas was too personally powerful to defeat. Wouldn't portend anything good for his people, either; who would be left bereft of a leader and at Sylvanas' less-than-tender mercies.

If he step up before, he was caught, then i would agree with you, and again, if he was right, why he didn't step up against her? he just accept his faith like a meek ox.

He did step up against her, in an attempt to save Zelling's (un)life - little good that it did.

Thats a stretch yes, just because someone want power don't make then gul'dan 2.0

Magatha's actions and general personality go a bit beyond wanting power - she killed her own mate to ascend to the rank of Chieftain of the Grimtotem, and her actions ever since have underscored that she cares nothing beyond attaining power (e.g. manipulating the Tauren via Arikara, killing her own nephew, her actions with the Doomstone, etc. etc.)

Maghata would not need to exile or kill the taurujo people anyway, she would prompt give then what they want.

Magatha and the rest of the Grimtotem are xenophobes who don't give a spit for the Alliance/Horde conflict - she might keep the Tauren out of the conflict simply because it doesn't concern her, causing the same general sequence of events. She would probably lead the Tauren away from the Horde in general, as well; figuring she might get a better deal with the Alliance or strike out on her own (taking some the Horde's greatest warriors with her).

I know Maghata isn't a good leader, but my point is she could be better than Baine, at least do something.

I think you're wrong about that, for several reasons.

And that make her just above Baine, we could thing of better taurens, but in a choice between the 2? maghata hands down, at least it could give us more interesting stories of pragmatic taurens and not peace lover alliance buddies

Sure, Magatha would definitely cause a lot of drama - but we're talking about what is best for the Tauren people in terms of their leader, not what would make for more interesting stories in the world. Magatha would definitely stir the pot, there's no denying that; but that doesn't make her a good leader by any means. Sylvanas stirred the pot an almighty degree, but no one should really be arguing she was a force for good as concerns the Horde's general welfare.

i never said sylvanas was right, in the moral way, but, its law, its treason by the horde laws, defy the warchief, and there is an 'simple" way to "judge" that, mak'gora

Trial by combat wasn't an effective means of settling disputes in the Middle Ages, and it's not now - as history teaches us pretty starkly, might seldom actually makes for right. I'm well aware it's the law of the Horde, but I'm saying that it's a shitty law, and that Sylvanas is a terrible leader who would use and abuse it to justify her own excesses (and totally does).

the point with Baine is how he enforced a law that go against the horde and tauren morals, of retribution and fighting for their own people with only taking account his dumb ideals of peace, thinking more about the enemy rather than their own.

The majority were actually fine with Baine's edict and the construction of a wall to prevent the conflict in the Barrens from spilling into Mulgore, basically pulling his people out of the conflict and securing their safety in Mulgore. It was only a handful of agitators who defied said edict, and given the givens the sentence of exile was pretty light (as per "Tides of War").

[ClassicPeon]

Let me restate it then... the main factors in the main draenei chain of command do not function in the way you want to argue...

LIVING OMNISCIENT PROPHET SAINT. Velen says, draenei do. Velen is a fundamentally good being and so this will typically never result in anything bad, excpet it didn't turn out too good for Draenor.

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Of course, no one forced the orcs to drink fel blood... they just didn't tell them all the effects and showed it as a source of greater power and they leapt at it. And I only blame Velen because he IS aware of events before they come to pass. I can blame the draenei for the state of draenor because draenor wound up as outland largely because the Kil'jaeden found Draenor through them...



yes I was HOPING you meant blood elves. I've seen people argue the mag'har for some retarded reason (with respect to the TBC added Draenei)




the problem is that we now know the draenei are aware of legion involvement in draenor events... of course that should also be evident because of Velen's unique situation.

But hey, this whole idea of the orcs getting "eredar" treatment because the draenei brought the legion to draenor thing seems like a bit of a stretch to some people.

edit: it's a bit off to call what orcs got as "eredar treatment" Eredar got to choose and were made a main leading force in control of much of the legions forces... not turned into rank and file infantry to throw away for a personal vendetta.

Trump and putin are good friends. Doesnt mean america and Russia are.

Infracted.

[Syegfryed]

Garrosh would probably no real desire to promulgate the news - we know he disapproved, but he didn't stop her either (condoning her use of the Val'kyr as necessary for the war effort). Still, neither he nor Cromush are present for what goes down in the Western Plaguelands, or at Cross Island. Garrosh saw a demonstration, nothing more, in a military context away from otherwise prying eyes. He at least was more or less on board with what Sylvanas was doing.

why he and others would not inform things? there is no reason for not to, we all know things spread, especially the bad things, they could even spread rumors and make things look worse. they all knew how shit sylvanas was and what she did, they only were ok because vol'jin said so.

Aside from what you're trying to put there because you dislike him as a character?

If you had saw my other posts in those years i post here, you would know i used to defend Baine, until he became indefensible, i wanted to like him , but again and again they show him as traitor or a coward, all in prol of a fake peace

Everyone was decidedly meek before Sylvanas, as well; not just Baine (which is part and parcel of what I'm saying above). Baine at least spoke out, like Saurfang did

He did when he was too late, he did not by the right reasons, thats the problem

My post was about the morality of her actions, though.

completely unnecessary and moved the point of the discussion, that is Baine, not Sylvanas

"We all know it was shit" underscores the point. Sylvanas having the authority to end "traitors" doesn't really matter when she's a tyrant and driving the Horde to the precipice of doom. Baine also faced much steeper opposition than Vol'jin did, due to the apparent loyalty the rest of the Horde was showing Sylvanas, a treatment Garrosh really never enjoyed outside his zealots. Both Sylvanas' tactics and the nature of the Blood War ensured she maintained popular support, at least on a surface level.

Lore shows she had the same kind of support that Garrosh, "we are only stick with him/her so things do not get worse"

Which we know Baine would simply lose, just like Saurfang did, given Sylvanas was too personally powerful to defeat. Wouldn't portend anything good for his people, either; who would be left bereft of a leader and at Sylvanas' less-than-tender mercies.

We don't know that he would lose, we don't know when her shenanignas power came, and even if she killed him with magic would make the same effect Saurfang death did.

Magatha's actions and general personality go a bit beyond wanting power - she killed her own mate to ascend to the rank of Chieftain of the Grimtotem, and her actions ever since have underscored that she cares nothing beyond attaining power (e.g. manipulating the Tauren via Arikara, killing her own nephew, her actions with the Doomstone, etc. etc.)

she isn't allying herself with demons and sucking fel power is she? she even help the player against the Legion in shaman classhall, gul'dan would have done that? i think not.

Magatha and the rest of the Grimtotem are xenophobes who don't give a spit for the Alliance/Horde conflict - she might keep the Tauren out of the conflict simply because it doesn't concern her, causing the same general sequence of events. She would probably lead the Tauren away from the Horde in general, as well; figuring she might get a better deal with the Alliance or strike out on her own (taking some the Horde's greatest warriors with her).

There is half of the grimtotem with the horde under other leadership, they seem pretty fine, and again, a tauren clan more distant would grant interesting stories at least

I think you're wrong about that, for several reasons.

agree to disagree

Sure, Magatha would definitely cause a lot of drama - but we're talking about what is best for the Tauren people in terms of their leader, not what would make for more interesting stories in the world. Magatha would definitely stir the pot, there's no denying that; but that doesn't make her a good leader by any means.

in this case we are talking about ifs and maybes, and to me she would be better than Baine, by a mile

Trial by combat wasn't an effective means of settling disputes in the Middle Ages, and it's not now - as history teaches us pretty starkly, might seldom actually makes for right. I'm well aware it's the law of the Horde, but I'm saying that it's a shitty law, and that Sylvanas is a terrible leader who would use and abuse it to justify her own excesses (and totally does).

We aren't in the middle ages, we are in a fictional game that is especially about irreal scenarios, and "trial combat" works fine in the context of the horde people

isn't a shit law, is something unique who make the horde different than the alliance and other games, remove that because it don't fit the modern standards is bullshit.

Its pretty simple how things should have handled, but apparently blizzard also want to modernize the horde and remove all the uniqueness and old customs in prol of the "new horde"

The majority were actually fine with Baine's edict and the construction of a wall to prevent the conflict in the Barrens from spilling into Mulgore, basically pulling his people out of the conflict and securing their safety in Mulgore. It was only a handful of agitators who defied said edict, and given the givens the sentence of exile was pretty light (as per "Tides of War").

they had to be fine or they would also be exiled, build a wall instead of repel the invaders and killers in the war they started is a pretty shit atitule

[Ielenia]

Question her means shit if he end doing the same way

Openly question someone is not something cowards do. And he "did it anyways" out of duty to the Horde.

thats just your projection

No, that's my observation. You accusing Baine of cowardice is like accusing a real apple of being a wax banana.

who said a thing about attacking sylvanas outright? who said a thing about meaningless death? what about meaningful death?

You haven't shown any other way to deal with the situation other than saying "there are ways". The only two other ways I could see that scene going is either begging for his life, which he wouldn't do since he's not a coward, or outright attacking her, which also wouldn't happen because Baine is not stupid, nor is he suicidal.

wush, as long i keep questioning criminals, while helping then, im totally absolved for my crimes

So now you're moving goalposts from "coward" to "criminal"?

to save Jaina brother, he did shit about the horde situation, Sylvanas crimes or her bullshit, because he was a coward

I'm pretty sure that keeping the Horde from crossing a terrible threshold like that would count a lot regarding the "Horde situation". Again: you don't seem to know what a "coward" really is.

im sure he knew very well what was going to happen when he was imprisoned by treason

So your "feelings" are fact, now?

[Syegfryed]

[QUOTE=Ielenia;52383786]Openly question someone is not something cowards do/quote]

As long questioning don't put him in trouble he was doing, that is too easy

And he "did it anyways" out of duty to the Horde.

Also easy put the blame on this

No, that's my observation. You accusing Baine of cowardice is like accusing a real apple of being a wax banana.

another projection, but hey, you can say a rotten apple is fresh

You haven't shown any other way to deal with the situation other than saying "there are ways". The only two other ways I could see that scene going is either begging for his life, which he wouldn't do since he's not a coward, or outright attacking her, which also wouldn't happen because Baine is not stupid, nor is he suicidal

.
i did i will say again

1) chalenge to mak'gora, like his Father did
2) he himself rally other leaders to form a rebellion like vol'jin did.

So now you're moving goalposts from "coward" to "criminal"?

i mean, it was just an example, but if you can't grasp, well

I'm pretty sure that keeping the Horde from crossing a terrible threshold like that would count a lot regarding the "Horde situation". Again: you don't seem to know what a "coward" really is.

Yep, what a terrrible threshold, he had to step up

She genocide th enight elves for pure spite? nah, no problem at all.

Killing his own people and raising then as undead? completely normal

mind control undeads? fine, as long they are not relaties of your friend in the alliance, that is a terrible threshold, we can't stand that

So your "feelings" are fact, now?

what happens to traitors in the horde? a trial and with a good lawyer they get away with?

[Aucald]

why he and others would not inform things? there is no reason for not to, we all know things spread, especially the bad things, they could even spread rumors and make things look worse. they all knew how shit sylvanas was and what she did, they only were ok because vol'jin said so.

Garrosh kept mum because he knew the Horde at large wouldn't accept it, and while he was also aghast at it, he was weak and vainglorious enough to allow it to proceed. Vol'jin was never a part of it, either; and probably had no idea of what was going on until much, much later.

If you had saw my other posts in those years i post here, you would know i used to defend Baine, until he became indefensible, i wanted to like him , but again and again they show him as traitor or a coward, all in prol of a fake peace

I can't speak to that, only to what you're saying now.

He did when he was too late, he did not by the right reasons, thats the problem

Too late? I would agree with that. Not for the right reasons? There wasn't a better reason beyond pointing out that Sylvanas was a flagrant hypocrite violating the credo of the Forsaken, one she herself had a hand in founding.

completely unnecessary and moved the point of the discussion, that is Baine, not Sylvanas

Baine and Sylvanas are somewhat inextricably connected in the context of this debate.

Lore shows she had the same kind of support that Garrosh, "we are only stick with him/her so things do not get worse"

Lore shows she had considerably more support than Garrosh, at least until the very end of her reign. Garrosh's True Horde forces were a minority of the Horde when Vol'jin's insurrection came to Orgrimmar to take it back, Saurfang's insurrection by contrast was a minority of the Horde until Sylvanas outed herself at the end of their Mak'gora.

We don't know that he would lose, we don't know when her shenanignas power came, and even if she killed him with magic would make the same effect Saurfang death did.

She'd been growing in power over time during BfA, and even before that a fight between Baine and Sylvanas likely would've been a tight contest. Also of note is that the way Sylvanas killed Saurfang was never in question, no one cried foul because she used Death magic or whatever to slay Saurfang. It was because she declared the Horde to be nothing that everyone turned on her.

she isn't allying herself with demons and sucking fel power is she? she even help the player against the Legion in shaman classhall, gul'dan would have done that? i think not.

It's powerlust that defines Gul'dan, not really Fel - Fel was just Gul'dan's means to that end. Magatha prefers Dark Shamanism herself, but that's not really any kind of real comfort. Magatha only "helps" the Farseer to be near the Doomstone, not out of any sense of camaraderie or altruism. Gul'dan also helps the PC at the beginning of WoD to disable the Dark Portal - but he does it for his own reasons, and he like Magatha is definitely not on our side.

There is half of the grimtotem with the horde under other leadership, they seem pretty fine, and again, a tauren clan more distant would grant interesting stories at least

Jevan leads a very small group of rebellious Grimtotem who felt Magatha had gone too far in poisoning and killing Cairne, definitely not "half" the entire Grimtotem tribe.

We aren't in the middle ages, we are in a fictional game that is especially about irreal scenarios, and "trial combat" works fine in the context of the horde people

isn't a shit law, is something unique who make the horde different than the alliance and other games, remove that because it don't fit the modern standards is bullshit.

Its pretty simple how things should have handled, but apparently blizzard also want to modernize the horde and remove all the uniqueness and old customs in prol of the "new horde"

WoW is definitely modeled in a medieval context with swords, sorcery, dragons, and land wars. While there some schizo technology thrown into the mix there is no infrastructure for it, no telecommunications, and news still tends to travel by word of mouth if at all.

Also, and I didn't think I would really need to underline this, but might does not make right. Being the strongest does not automatically make you correct, you can be physically superior and also be wrong - and if trial by combat is the rule of law, then it simply means the strongest can be wrong with authority. It is a shitty implementation of law, almost objectively, both in fiction and in reality.

they had to be fine or they would also be exiled, build a wall instead of repel the invaders and killers in the war they started is a pretty shit atitule

"Tides of War" shows us that most of the Tauren were fine with the wall, though; they didn't burn for vengeance over the loss of a minor village in the midst of a rancid race-war orchestrated almost entirely by Garrosh's warmongering. Baine didn't want to further escalate the war - and while you and even I might disagree with that, that was he decision as the High Chieftain. And then the survivors of Taurajo disobeyed and were exiled for it.

I'm not arguing the merit of Baine's decision and the punishment of the former residents of Taurajo - I'm saying it's hypocritical to lambast Baine and then give Sylvanas a pass when it comes to leadership in bad faith.

[Mumba]

Blame the orcs for both.

The tauren formed an, well, alliance with the orcs when they saved them from the centaurs.
The draenei has a history with corrupted orcs. Even if the orcs changed quite a bit since then and Velen probably would like to stop the conflict, the everyday draenei would never be able to trust them. Pure racism is quite common on Azeroth.

[Ielenia]

As long questioning don't put him in trouble he was doing, that is too easy.

Why do you think Baine somehow knows questioning the Warchief wouldn't put him in trouble?

another projection, but hey, you can say a rotten apple is fresh

Except it's not rotten at all. Just because you don't like the apple, doesn't mean it's rotten.

i did i will say again

1) chalenge to mak'gora, like his Father did
2) he himself rally other leaders to form a rebellion like vol'jin did.

So you excuse Varok Saurfang by saying "terrible writing", but when it's for Baine, "terrible writing" is not an excuse?

i mean, it was just an example, but if you can't grasp, well

It's a meaningless example that does nothing. "Being a criminal" and "being a coward" are such completely different situations that they're not comparable.

what happens to traitors in the horde? a trial and with a good lawyer they get away with?

Under Sylvanas' reign? Imprisoned and tortured.

[Syegfryed]

Why do you think Baine somehow knows questioning the Warchief wouldn't put him in trouble?

because as long he was doing, there was no problem, sylvanas knew he have no balls, scare him a bit and he become obedient

Except it's not rotten at all. Just because you don't like the apple, doesn't mean it's rotten.

all i see is you trying to put sugar on the rotten apple, its sweet, but its shit anyway

So you excuse Varok Saurfang by saying "terrible writing", but when it's for Baine, "terrible writing" is not an excuse?

i literally said it was terrible writing too, the problem is baine was a traitor before vfa, like warning Jaina about theramore

It's a meaningless example that does nothing. "Being a criminal" and "being a coward" are such completely different situations that they're not comparable.

completely comparable, but if you don't understand, not my fault, ignore then, at least im not going for the Godwin law

Under Sylvanas' reign? Imprisoned and tortured.

you mean death, then imprisoned and tortured in undead?

[Gann Stonespire]

"Tides of War" shows us that most of the Tauren were fine with the wall, though; they didn't burn for vengeance over the loss of a minor village in the midst of a rancid race-war orchestrated almost entirely by Garrosh's warmongering. Baine didn't want to further escalate the war - and while you and even I might disagree with that, that was he decision as the High Chieftain. And then the survivors of Taurajo disobeyed and were exiled for it.

Except that was Bain's personal thoughts that most tauren liked it AND, Bain's own ally who took care him of during Magatha's coup, disagreed with Baine and chose to help defend the Barrens, only to be backstabbed/exiled by Baine. Jorn's actions show the tauren were not united with Baine.

Taurajo was no mere incident. Plenty of civilians died in the camp including the wives, brothers, and children of the tauren, imagine telling Kirge Sternhorn its cool the Alliance killed his wife, but him defending against the Alliance massacring innocent tauren is worth him and his son being exiled from Thunderbluff.

LOL, the Alliance were still attacking the tauren, the dwarves were firebombing any tauren in the barrens from the air, had killed an entire mine of innocent people and were trying to break into Mulgore.

Whilst Baine was being betraying his own people and everything they stand for, it was Garrosh's orcs, sent by the man himself, who protected the tauren and repelled the invaders from the Gates of Mulgore.

And no, it wasn't Garrosh's fault, the Alliance, especially the Dwarves wiped out the Stonespire tribe BEFORE Garrosh even came to Azeroth. Those douches would never stop killing Tauren until their worthless existences were sent straight to Twisted Nether.

I'm not arguing the merit of Baine's decision and the punishment of the former residents of Taurajo - I'm saying it's hypocritical to lambast Baine and then give Sylvanas a pass when it comes to leadership in bad faith.

Then why are you trying to vilify the noble tauren protecting their homeland from invasion and whitewashing all of the Alliance atrocities of the Barrens by blaming it all on Garrosh.

The warchief has no say in how a nation leader leads his people. Military? Yes. But not how to lead the population that isn't his.

Except Brighthoof says that was a right to all members of the Horde and Baine isn't even the Warchief. You're making the unbelievable insinuation Brighthoof doesn't even know his own culture.

Out of fear? Really? Because I distinctly remember Baine protesting every step of the way, to the point of almost making Garrosh attack him. And on top of that Garrosh and his Kor'kron were attacking any orc that showed the slight bit of dissent toward his will.

That is literally what his inner monologue in Tides of War reveals.

Based off your hatred for Anduin leading the Alliance, I'm sure you know Baine is a coward and a traitor to the Horde, but only push him out of your personal hatred for the Horde and its player base.

So you excuse Varok Saurfang by saying "terrible writing", but when it's for Baine, "terrible writing" is not an excuse?

Baine has been written terribly since the terrible Tides of War got the scene of him defending the Tauren in the Barrens from him actively impeding them and mocking the survivors of Taurajo.

Saurfang has much more good writing to his name.

because as long he was doing, there was no problem, sylvanas knew he have no balls, scare him a bit and he become obedient

Funfact Ielenia has claimed that unarmed tauren herbalist, Yonada, was armed military target and not a civilian.

He also claimed Horde quest text was role-play nonsense.

Basically he'll hate anything that shows even the slightest Horde perspective. More proof that Baine is a Horde character written to appeal to people who hate the Horde.

[Ielenia]

because as long he was doing, there was no problem,

Once again: why do you think Baine somehow knew questioning the Warchief wouldn't put him in trouble?

all i see is you trying to put sugar on the rotten apple, its sweet, but its shit anyway

Again, I'm not 'putting anything' because the apple is not rotten. I've already told you that you seem to have a very skewed definition of "coward".

i literally said it was terrible writing too, the problem is baine was a traitor before vfa, like warning Jaina about theramore

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that Baine is really a traitor, that once again proves that he is not a coward. Because cowards wouldn't betray their superiors willingly and put themselves in such a risky position that would likely bring him death if found out, while at the same time bringing him not a single tangible benefit.

completely comparable, but if you don't understand, not my fault, ignore then, at least im not going for the Godwin law

Oh, I understand it perfectly, which is why I'm telling you the comparison doesn't work because the situations are completely different. And the only one bringing that "law" here is you, mind you.

you mean death, then imprisoned and tortured in undead?

I meant what I wrote.

- - - Updated - - -

Except Brighthoof says that was a right to all members of the Horde and Baine isn't even the Warchief. You're making the unbelievable insinuation Brighthoof doesn't even know his own culture.

Garrosh leads the Horde. Not the tauren. There is a difference. Anyone with the slightest bit of understanding can see that this line refers to groups within the Horde affecting each other, not within those groups. Baine leads the tauren, and his word is final for anything tauren. Garrosh, for example, has no power to tell the tauren to stop worshiping the Earthmother. He has no political power within the groups of the Horde, save for the orcs, since he leads the orcs as well.

That is literally what his inner monologue in Tides of War reveals.

Except, it doesn't. It shows him doing this out of duty and he fears for what could happen to his people.

Based off your hatred for Anduin leading the Alliance,

HAHAHAH!!

Hatred for Anduin? What have you been smoking to think I have any sort of "hatred" toward Anduin?

[Syegfryed]

Garrosh kept mum because he knew the Horde at large wouldn't accept it, and while he was also aghast at it, he was weak and vainglorious enough to allow it to proceed. Vol'jin was never a part of it, either; and probably had no idea of what was going on until much, much later.

...but he was going to tell everyone in the horde at large, th Leaders have to knew things, they chose to not tell to their people, is like knowing the Lich king was still alive, obviouslly no one else knew, but Leaders do

Too late? I would agree with that. Not for the right reasons? There wasn't a better reason beyond pointing out that Sylvanas was a flagrant hypocrite violating the credo of the Forsaken, one she herself had a hand in founding.

But when she was genocide innocents for pure spite? that was not a flagrant hypocrite violating the credo of the horde, and also completely show her as a liar, who said it she was going to take the tree, since the point was the horde gaining advantage? or when she straight up kill horde people, including his tauren, defending her city, and also defile then into undead? that is not a violation of the Tauren credo?

Or when she was violating the forsaken credo raising and mind controling Death night elves in Darkshore? im sure at least that would come to his ears

Again, lets not pretend it was about "forsaken credo" or "horde lives matter(when he indeed killed horde people there) it was just because he was Jaina brother

He stand by her and face it tons of worse depravity, but now, now, he could not anymore, and this is the problem here

Baine and Sylvanas are somewhat inextricably connected in the context of this debate.

apparently people are using her to take baine blame away

Lore shows she had considerably more support than Garrosh,

of the people, not from the leaders

She'd been growing in power over time during BfA, and even before that a fight between Baine and Sylvanas likely would've been a tight contest. Also of note is that the way Sylvanas killed Saurfang was never in question, no one cried foul because she used Death magic or whatever to slay Saurfang. It was because she declared the Horde to be nothing that everyone turned on her.

If she didn't "declared" horde to be nothing, she would be called out anyway, because she blatantly cheat in a mak'gora

but of course, terrible wow writing coming once again in hand

It's powerlust that defines Gul'dan, not really Fel - Fel was just Gul'dan's means to that end. Magatha prefers Dark Shamanism herself, but that's not really any kind of real comfort. Magatha only "helps" the Farseer to be near the Doomstone, not out of any sense of camaraderie or altruism. Gul'dan also helps the PC at the beginning of WoD to disable the Dark Portal - but he does it for his own reasons, and he like Magatha is definitely not on our side.

Its not just powerlust, is how Gul'dan would do anything and pay any price to get power, that include sell his soul and his kin to the Legion, you can't possible say maghata is him 2.0 if she never did that or even close to her.

I completely agree maghata is a pragmatic character who again, i think it would be better than Baine.

Jevan leads a very small group of rebellious Grimtotem who felt Magatha had gone too far in poisoning and killing Cairne, definitely not "half" the entire Grimtotem tribe.

LAst time i saw in cata was half

WoW is definitely modeled in a medieval context with swords, sorcery, dragons, and land wars. While there some schizo technology thrown into the mix there is no infrastructure for it, no telecommunications, and news still tends to travel by word of mouth if at all.

It have medieval context, but the horde is not a medieval European context by a mile, they are base din other world cultures

Also, and I didn't think I would really need to underline this, but might does not make right. Being the strongest does not automatically make you correct, you can be physically superior and also be wrong - and if trial by combat is the rule of law, then it simply means the strongest can be wrong with authority. It is a shitty implementation of law, almost objectively, both in fiction and in reality.

That is what make things different in wow, that you being right also means you are three stronger

It don't need to be perfect, it don't need to be modern, is something different and unique that people can explore other stories, but the mak'gora was only ever brought up one time, things would be way easier if they did that before, ensure the horde culture would be used, same with the "king" system, we can't possible ditch everything in prol of a modern Parliament because its "better for everyone"

"Tides of War" shows us that most of the Tauren were fine with the wall, though; they didn't burn for vengeance over the loss of a minor village in the midst of a rancid race-war orchestrated almost entirely by Garrosh's warmongering. Baine didn't want to further escalate the war - and while you and even I might disagree with that, that was he decision as the High Chieftain. And then the survivors of Taurajo disobeyed and were exiled for it.

And thats why people can't defend baine without nitpicking and distorting things in his favor "he didn't want further escalated the ar that the alliance started, let the alliance kill our people, build a war or something", that is bullshit and its in this book they went further in ruining him

I'm not arguing the merit of Baine's decision and the punishment of the former residents of Taurajo - I'm saying it's hypocritical to lambast Baine and then give Sylvanas a pass when it comes to leadership in bad faith.

i would say is hypocritical that Baine exiled his people that defiled his dumb decree, and he get a free pass with his blatantly acts of treason, he should have exiled himself.

- - - Updated - - -

Once again: why do you think Baine somehow knew questioning the Warchief wouldn't put him in trouble?

Because he did before and nothing happened to him, duh

Again, I'm not 'putting anything' because the apple is not rotten. I've already told you that you seem to have a very skewed definition of "coward".

i literally put the definition of coward, and by his previous acts, he pretty much fit right in, the derek incident don't wash all his apst events, who believe or not, still exist.

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that Baine is really a traitor,

dude warned the enemy of the horde attack, so they could prepare,that is literally one of the highest acts of treason, he did a job of a fucking double agent

that once again proves that he is not a coward. Because cowards wouldn't betray their superiors willingly and put themselves in such a risky position that would likely bring him death if found out, while at the same time bringing him not a single tangible benefit.

cowards would defintelly Betray their superiors, and id on't know how showing Baine is more of a piece of shit make him look any better, but sure

apparently, you think there is only black and white, he either is one thing, either he isn't, and as long he did, one thing who do not fit the coward he is, automacially he succeed and he is no longer a coward

By this logic we can just say Garrosh was a completely honorable warchief, because he, with his own hands killed horde who taint the horde honor, a dishonorable warchief would let him live, would never do that...

I meant what I wrote.

sue man, of course Sylvanas would just imprison and torture him
- - - Updated - - -


Garrosh leads the Horde. Not the tauren. There is a difference. Anyone with the slightest bit of understanding can see that this line refers to groups within the Horde affecting each other, not within those groups. Baine leads the tauren, and his word is final for anything tauren. Garrosh, for example, has no power to tell the tauren to stop worshiping the Earthmother. He has no political power within the groups of the Horde, save for the orcs, since he leads the orcs as well.


Except, it doesn't. It shows him doing this out of duty and he fears for what could happen to his people.


HAHAHAH!!

Hatred for Anduin? What have you been smoking to think I have any sort of "hatred" toward Anduin?[/QUOTE]

[Aucald]

...but he was going to tell everyone in the horde at large, th Leaders have to knew things, they chose to not tell to their people, is like knowing the Lich king was still alive, obviouslly no one else knew, but Leaders do

Except Garrosh was well-known for doing exactly the opposite of that - it's the very thing his forces take issue with Theramore, him not telling anyone the full plan i.e. the empowered mana bomb and allowing pretty much everyone to believe the Horde had been defeated and pushed out of the city by the Alliance forces. Garrosh only told people what he wished them to know - if he didn't want it to be public knowledge, then it wouldn't be.

But when she was genocide innocents for pure spite? that was not a flagrant hypocrite violating the credo of the horde, and also completely show her as a liar, who said it she was going to take the tree, since the point was the horde gaining advantage? or when she straight up kill horde people, including his tauren, defending her city, and also defile then into undead? that is not a violation of the Tauren credo?

Or when she was violating the forsaken credo raising and mind controling Death night elves in Darkshore? im sure at least that would come to his ears

Again, lets not pretend it was about "forsaken credo" or "horde lives matter(when he indeed killed horde people there) it was just because he was Jaina brother

He stand by her and face it tons of worse depravity, but now, now, he could not anymore, and this is the problem here

All basically sums up to "Baine didn't act quickly or decisively enough," to which I've already agreed. No one is saying Baine is a paragon here, after all.

apparently people are using her to take baine blame away

There is no blame for Baine in this context, the active agent is still Sylvanas. Baine's inaction in the face of Sylvanas' atrocities doesn't somehow diminish Sylvanas' responsibility for her own actions.

If she didn't "declared" horde to be nothing, she would be called out anyway, because she blatantly cheat in a mak'gora

She wasn't called out after the fact, and no one we know of ever discusses Sylvanas dishonor of the Mak'gora - it has to be assumed that people were basically okay with it.

Its not just powerlust, is how Gul'dan would do anything and pay any price to get power, that include sell his soul and his kin to the Legion, you can't possible say maghata is him 2.0 if she never did that or even close to her.

I certainly can, and did. Magatha doesn't have Gul'dan's power thankfully, but if she did do you really think she'd be any different?

LAst time i saw in cata was half

You'll need to cite some canon source for this figure, as I didn't find anything even close to such a figure.

It have medieval context, but the horde is not a medieval European context by a mile, they are base din other world cultures

I meant medieval technology in general, not medieval European specifically. Azeroth has no technological infrastructure, even the most advanced species like the Draenei or Mechagnomes have no such technology in place.

And thats why people can't defend baine without nitpicking and distorting things in his favor "he didn't want further escalated the ar that the alliance started, let the alliance kill our people, build a war or something", that is bullshit and its in this book they went further in ruining him

I've distorted nothing - it's pretty plain and clear in the narrative. The Great Gate is Baine's answer to the conflict in the Barrens, and it has the majority support of his people. You might disagree with the methodology and have sympathy for the plight of the Taurajo exiles, but it is what it is.

i would say is hypocritical that Baine exiled his people that defiled his dumb decree, and he get a free pass with his blatantly acts of treason, he should have exiled himself.

He had to do something - a leader who allows his people to disobey his decrees isn't long in power, after all. That's not hypocrisy - it's a tragic outcome of the burdens of leadership. And since Baine was ultimately imprisoned for his later actions in BfA, there's no hypocrisy there either. He didn't argue the point or even defend his actions, but instead accepted the responsibility for them and allowed himself to be arrested.