Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Endus]

THAT IS THE ATTEMPT. What the fuck do you think he was supposed to do stand there getting pepper sprayed until the cop starts to wonder why he's not leaving? He turned himself into the nearest safe police station he knew of.

There were other police, and closer police stations.

He fled the scene, and that wasn't an accident.

You can't claim he tried to turn himself in when he literally never talked to any cops and just left the area

And? Kyle's not the one that attacked Rosenbaum.

Rosenbaum "attacked" no one.

You keep returning to that dry well, while never explaining which action it was that Rosenbaum took that you consider an "attack". The running towards Rittenhouse? The tossing of a half-empty pop bottle? The shouting "Fuck you!"?

Those three things were the only actions Rosenbaum took which could possibly be used to explain this. I've asked you twice already and I'll repeat it a third time; which of those three things was an "attack"?

And just be aware that if you say it's the chasing him, I'm gonna point to a myriad of other contexts where that same action couldn't possibly be considered a threat.

Yes he did, stop lying.

You literally can't explain how Rosenbaum was "attacking", but I'm the liar?

Rosenbaum was ALREADY a threat to him at this point, the prosecution isn't even trying to argue the bullshit you're spewing here. Kyle was privileged under the law to threaten Rosenbaum to try to dissuade him from attacking.
STOP
LYING

None of what you said in this section is true. You're making that shit up and it has no basis in anything.

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If actually bother to follow the threads of my replies to Endus you'll see I'm consistently correct, as he slunk off from this thread for a few days after he proved I was right about police officers having the same use of force requirements as civilians in Wisconsin.

You realize I have a life outside of these forums, right?

I didn't "slink off". I had shit to do and this is something I do when I'm killing time.

Also; you weren't right about that and you ignored the statutes that demonstrated that, so you're just dredging up old debunked bullshit.

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No, that's a disorganized group. Endus is trying to characterize them as a militia with some sort of preexisting relationship with each other when this isn't the case, it seems more like they were pairs of friends that eventually congregated to this Car Source lot with the owner's permission. Dominick Black and Kyle had just met Nick Smith that day, through him they connect with the owners of the Car Source. Ryan Balch had no previous affiliation with either of them and had just travelled into town to help where he could, and also doesn't seem to have known JoAnn Fiedler prior to evening.

This isn't better, you realize that, right?

It also speaks directly against your claim that the owner wanted them to protect his property and had asked them to do so.

Why the fuck did he walk right up to the police cruiser then? Get out of her with your lies.

He didn't get anywhere close to a police cruiser.

And given that he didn't turn himself in to those officers or any of the others behind them, it's pretty darned clear that it wasn't to turn himself in. Cause he could've. And just . . . didn't.

[PhaelixWW]

Why the fuck did he walk right up to the police cruiser then? Get out of her with your lies.

What lie? He ran towards the police at first, because he was running scared of the crowd, despite the fact that he was the only one causing real bodily harm. He wasn't about to shoot it out with the police at that point. When he realized that they weren't aware that he was the shooter they were looking for, he ran back home.

When he got home, his mom found out what had happened and offered him two choices: leave and go on the run, or turn himself into the police.

[Coniferous]

Why the fuck did he walk right up to the police cruiser then? Get out of her with your lies.

This is irrelevant to the case. “He didn’t turn himself in” is not a reason to find him guilty. Don’t let them get you off track.

[Aurrora]

There were other police, and closer police stations.

He fled the scene, and that wasn't an accident.

You can't claim he tried to turn himself in when he literally never talked to any cops and just left the area

He tried to at the police cruiser.
The closest police station was unreachable.
Antioch's police station was a reasonably safe location.

Rosenbaum "attacked" no one.

You keep returning to that dry well, while never explaining which action it was that Rosenbaum took that you consider an "attack". The running towards Rittenhouse? The tossing of a half-empty pop bottle? The shouting "Fuck you!"?

A half-empty pop bottle? Where the fuck are you even getting this information from, it was a medical bag filled with an assortment of items, which was apparently also never recovered to process for evidence. Yes, this is part of an attack. Y'know kinda like how a fan was charged with assault for throwing an empty water bottle at a basketball player.
Yes, charging at Kyle was also part of an attack, why don't you understand this?

Those three things were the only actions Rosenbaum took which could possibly be used to explain this. I've asked you twice already and I'll repeat it a third time; which of those three things was an "attack"?

And just be aware that if you say it's the chasing him, I'm gonna point to a myriad of other contexts where that same action couldn't possibly be considered a threat.

It doesn't matter whatever fantasy scenarios you come up with to explain how a 36 year old man chasing down a 17 year old somehow wasn't a threat, those only exist in your head.

You literally can't explain how Rosenbaum was "attacking", but I'm the liar?

I've literally already explained it a dozen times, chasing someone down with the intent to do violence to them is an attack.

None of what you said in this section is true. You're making that shit up and it has no basis in anything.

It's completely true, that's why the prosecutor is trying so hard to get the doctored image he wants to claim shows Kyle pointing his gun at the Ziminskis into evidence.

[postman1782]

The lies in this thread have been from people trying to come up with scenarios to say how the 36 year old man who is seen consistently being the most aggressive person in the crowd, who had to be held back by other demonstrators, who made death threats to Kyle, was somehow not a threat to the 17 year old he was chasing after. Get out of her with your dishonest bullshit.
If actually bother to follow the threads of my replies to Endus you'll see I'm consistently correct, as he slunk off from this thread for a few days after he proved I was right about police officers having the same use of force requirements as civilians in Wisconsin.

Except that Kyle was the aggressor. Quit fucking lying.

[Coniferous]

Except that Kyle was the aggressor. Quit fucking lying.

You’ve posted this several times and I’ve asked you to explain… how was he the aggressor? Are you saying that Rosenbaum chasing him was not aggressive, and so Rittenhouse became the aggressor when he pointed his gun?

Simply stating that he was, without any explanation isn’t very interesting.

[postman1782]

You’ve posted this several times and I’ve asked you to explain… how was he the aggressor? Are you saying that Rosenbaum chasing him was not aggressive, and so Rittenhouse became the aggressor when he pointed his gun?

Simply stating that he was, without any explanation isn’t very interesting.

He chased Rosenbaum, also, if he were just an EMT or there for cleaning grafitti, he wouldn't have needed the illegally owned and obtained gun.

He even admitted he knew that Rosenbaum was unarmed, still murdered him anyway.

[Endus]

He tried to at the police cruiser.
The closest police station was unreachable.
Antioch's police station was a reasonably safe location.

He didn't try and turn himself in on the scene. At all. I have no idea why you're making that up.

And I don't care that he turned himself in, eventually, after thinking it over for more than an hour. I care that he fled the scene and did not turn himself in to police as he did so. Going to police in a different state is weird as hell.

A half-empty pop bottle? Where the fuck are you even getting this information from, it was a medical bag filled with an assortment of items, which was apparently also never recovered to process for evidence. Yes, this is part of an attack. Y'know kinda like how a fan was charged with assault for throwing an empty water bottle at a basketball player.

There were a few other things in there, sure, like a pair of socks and some toothpaste. This is the weapon you're afraid of?

Also, cute source you didn't read;

David Harris, a law professor at the University of Pittsburgh, said he understands why people feel surprised by the charge and that it may seem like an "act of utter stupidity" but it's more about sending an overall message to other fans. "The next person who decides to do something like that could be holding something else," Harris said.

So, not a position that makes any real sense and was only done to try and suppress any chance of fan escalation by normalizing something that's clearly not a weapon being thrown, which would encourage fans to step it up to find the line.

Also states the object thrown would have to touch the target (Rosenbaum's bag did not).

Yes, charging at Kyle was also part of an attack, why don't you understand this?

No no, not "part of". Not "charging", where you try and presume your conclusion as part of the premises.

"Running towards". You can't just presume there's an attack and thus any action Rosenbaum took was "part of the attack". What specific actions were specifically an attack?

Show your work rather than just making shit up.

It doesn't matter whatever fantasy scenarios you come up with to explain how a 36 year old man chasing down a 17 year old somehow wasn't a threat, those only exist in your head.

You're stating their ages like that means anything.

It's just an appeal to emotion, because the facts aren't working out.

I've literally already explained it a dozen times, chasing someone down with the intent to do violence to them is an attack.

Oh, so you're psychic? You're telling me you psychically know what Rosenbaum was thinking?

Because if not, you're making that shit up. You can't possibly know his intent.

It's completely true, that's why the prosecutor is trying so hard to get the doctored image he wants to claim shows Kyle pointing his gun at the Ziminskis into evidence.

No, that image shows that Rittenhouse was threatening people with his weapon before Rosenbaum did anything, which makes all of Rosenbaum's actions towards Rittenhouse legally justified.

That image was not "doctored". You're making that shit up. It was cleared up by the crime lab for visibility using standard procedures. That's it.

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You’ve posted this several times and I’ve asked you to explain… how was he the aggressor? Are you saying that Rosenbaum chasing him was not aggressive, and so Rittenhouse became the aggressor when he pointed his gun?

Simply stating that he was, without any explanation isn’t very interesting.

Pointing his weapon at the Zeminskis.

Choosing to stand his ground and threaten Rosenbaum rather than retreating, as he was legally obligated to do (Wisconsin is not a stand your ground state).

You can be aggressive while retreating. Rittenhouse even admitted on the stand that his purpose in stopping and turning was to brandish his weapon as a threat to Rosenbaum, hoping it would dissuade him. Which A> wasn't legal, and B> would have justified Rosenbaum acting to defend himself from that lethal threat.

[Aurrora]

He chased Rosenbaum, also, if he were just an EMT or there for cleaning grafitti, he wouldn't have needed the illegally owned and obtained gun.

He even admitted he knew that Rosenbaum was unarmed, still murdered him anyway.

Stop lying.

[Rozz]

You all need to tone it back down. If you're going to rehash the same comments with 'you're lying' ad nauseam take it to PMs. This is reaching the realm of spam.
The case is still fine to discuss and is on topic, but try to be more constructive.

[Coniferous]

He chased Rosenbaum, also, if he were just an EMT or there for cleaning grafitti, he wouldn't have needed the illegally owned and obtained gun.

He even admitted he knew that Rosenbaum was unarmed, still murdered him anyway.

When did he chase Rosenbaum? I don’t see that anywhere? Witnesses report that when they interacted by the car, Rittenhouse was yelling, “Friendly!” This is one of those “facts” that I see repeated in this thread but nowhere else, which seems odd because if it’s true it would be important.

[postman1782]

Stop lying.

I'm not. But you wouldn't know that, since you have been lying the entire fucking time, trying to defend the white nationalist.

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When did he chase Rosenbaum? I don’t see that anywhere? Witnesses report that when they interacted by the car, Rittenhouse was yelling, “Friendly!” This is one of those “facts” that I see repeated in this thread but nowhere else, which seems odd because if it’s true it would be important.

Sure thing bud. Considering how many witnesses have lied on the stand about saying that the owner gave them permission to be on his property, though the owner stated nothing of the sort.

[PhaelixWW]

He tried to at the police cruiser.
The closest police station was unreachable.
Antioch's police station was a reasonably safe location.

Except for the fact that he went home and had to get told by his mom to turn himself in, hours later.

A half-empty pop bottle? Where the fuck are you even getting this information from, it was a medical bag filled with an assortment of items, which was apparently also never recovered to process for evidence. Yes, this is part of an attack.

There was nothing of any significant weight in the bag. There are multiple videos that confirm this. I mean, shit, when he threw it moments before Rittenhouse murdered him, it only went a few feet.

Y'know kinda like how a fan was charged with assault for throwing an empty water bottle at a basketball player.

Except it wasn't empty. And it actually grazed its target. So no comparison.

[Coniferous]

I'm not. But you wouldn't know that, since you have been lying the entire fucking time, trying to defend the white nationalist.

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Sure thing bud. Considering how many witnesses have lied on the stand about saying that the owner gave them permission to be on his property, though the owner stated nothing of the sort.

Why are you talking about this? I asked where Rosenbaum was chased by Rittenhouse?

Edit: oh I see, you’re talking about “froendly!” but I thought that was also recorded.

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He didn't try and turn himself in on the scene. At all. I have no idea why you're making that up.

And I don't care that he turned himself in, eventually, after thinking it over for more than an hour. I care that he fled the scene and did not turn himself in to police as he did so. Going to police in a different state is weird as hell.



There were a few other things in there, sure, like a pair of socks and some toothpaste. This is the weapon you're afraid of?

Also, cute source you didn't read;

David Harris, a law professor at the University of Pittsburgh, said he understands why people feel surprised by the charge and that it may seem like an "act of utter stupidity" but it's more about sending an overall message to other fans. "The next person who decides to do something like that could be holding something else," Harris said.

So, not a position that makes any real sense and was only done to try and suppress any chance of fan escalation by normalizing something that's clearly not a weapon being thrown, which would encourage fans to step it up to find the line.

Also states the object thrown would have to touch the target (Rosenbaum's bag did not).



No no, not "part of". Not "charging", where you try and presume your conclusion as part of the premises.

"Running towards". You can't just presume there's an attack and thus any action Rosenbaum took was "part of the attack". What specific actions were specifically an attack?

Show your work rather than just making shit up.



You're stating their ages like that means anything.

It's just an appeal to emotion, because the facts aren't working out.



Oh, so you're psychic? You're telling me you psychically know what Rosenbaum was thinking?

Because if not, you're making that shit up. You can't possibly know his intent.



No, that image shows that Rittenhouse was threatening people with his weapon before Rosenbaum did anything, which makes all of Rosenbaum's actions towards Rittenhouse legally justified.

That image was not "doctored". You're making that shit up. It was cleared up by the crime lab for visibility using standard procedures. That's it.

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Pointing his weapon at the Zeminskis.

Choosing to stand his ground and threaten Rosenbaum rather than retreating, as he was legally obligated to do (Wisconsin is not a stand your ground state).

You can be aggressive while retreating. Rittenhouse even admitted on the stand that his purpose in stopping and turning was to brandish his weapon as a threat to Rosenbaum, hoping it would dissuade him. Which A> wasn't legal, and B> would have justified Rosenbaum acting to defend himself from that lethal threat.

Your argument is the one the jurors have to decide on… as before, I come down on the side of Rosenbaum at fault.

I feel like “ACROSS STATE LINES!!!!” needs to become a meme. I live near a border and crossing state lines is commonplace, they barely matter. I can’t think of a more irrelevant fact, but somehow it keeps coming up.

[Endus]

I feel like “ACROSS STATE LINES!!!!” needs to become a meme. I live near a border and crossing state lines is commonplace, they barely matter. I can’t think of a more irrelevant fact, but somehow it keeps coming up.

See my location tag. I live in (just outside) Ottawa, in Ontario, and Gatineau, Quebec is right across the river. I had my 18th birthday here ages back (well before I lived here), and me and a friend went across the river to go barhopping (drinking being legal for 18+ in Quebec, 19+elsewhere in Canada).

If I hit and killed someone in Quebec with my car (trying to imagine the only way I'd end up responsible for someone's death), I wouldn't drive away past a bunch of Gatineau police until I got home, where I'd hem and haw for an hour or so before going to the local PD to turn myself in.

I'd stay on the scene and call the cops to come to me.

It's not just the "across state lines", it's that he went home to a completely different town, that there's a state line in play just underscores the seriousness involved.

Hell, I got in a pretty bad car accident years back, when a guy tried to pull a U-turn from the outside lane across my lane; my car was technically driveable but a write-off insurance-wise. While myself and the offender (police determination that he was 100% at fault) didn't want to block traffic, one of us called it in (can't recall which this late, probably me), and we drove to the closest PD to make our statements. And this was a case where nobody was even really hurt, not seriously at least.

So yeah; I've been in a situation where I had to go make a statement at a PD. And I didn't drive to a completely different town to make that statement. Which is why I find this particular bit of the story so completely unconvincing, people pretending what Rittenhouse did here to be perfectly reasonable. It freaking wasn't. At all. He killed two people, injured a third, and attempted to kill a fourth, and then fled the scenes of the two shootings he was a part of.

[Fincayra]

See above, malice aforethought.

Rittenhouse purposefully drove to a protest, with a rifle, and roamed around looking for targets.

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So we're clear he murdered two armed people. Thanks for confirming that.

Yes, one hit him over the head twice with a skateboard, and the other was feigning "surrender" before pointing his gun right at Rittenhouse's head. As for Rosenbaum, people can argue he came there that night looking for trouble. Setting fires, yelling obscenities, all things that are definitely troublemaking behavior. But, nothing I'd ever sentence someone to death for. The moment his life became forfeit in my opinion (it's my opinion, the jury can disagree with me all they want. I know many on this board has disagreed with me) is when he reached Rittenhouse and tried to take his gun from him. Chasing people, not necessarily a threat. Actually threatening them, can be considered hyperbolae. But Rittenhouse isn't the biggest teenager. And Rosenbaum isn't the biggest adult, but he's still an adult. I don't have children. But, I know if someone like that was doing what he did to my nephew, I would 100% be in favor of my nephew killing him.

Rittenhouse showed remarkable restraint that night. He didn't fire until he felt it was absolutely necessary. He ran away from Rosenbaum until someone fired behind him, and then didn't fire until Rosenbaum was reaching for his weapon. He didn't shoot the others until he was on the ground and vulnerable. And Grosskreutz should be thanking whatever he believes in that he's alive today. It could have gone far differently for him. he was the only one armed with a firearm that night who attacked Rittenhouse. (illegally carrying that firearm as well. Expired permits are expired permits.)

Disagree with my analysis all you want. It's what I believe upon examining this case. Do I think he'll be acquitted? I don't know. There's been jury threatening the last week. And after the George Floyd trial, I had a bit more faith in the legal process restored. But, not much. I know we have a two tier justice system in this country. People like you and me don't get fair trials. I was glad to see Derek Chauvin get convicted. I don't know what I want in this case. People need to stop carrying around guns like this. Riots need to stop happening. Does that mean someone needs to be made an example of? I fucking hate to think about it, but the answer might be yes....

[jonnysensible]

I feel like “ACROSS STATE LINES!!!!”

alright glen greenwald. crossing state lines in the commission of a crime changes the jurisdiction = federal case.

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snip

Why isnt rittenhouse ever the threat hes got an ar15 and hes intentionally turned up somewhere volatile to point it at people and seek action.

[Coniferous]

alright glen greenwald. crossing state lines in the commission of a crime changes the jurisdiction = federal case.

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Why isnt rittenhouse ever the threat hes got an ar15 and hes intentionally turned up somewhere volatile to point it at people and seek action.

But it’s not being tried as a federal case, right? So again, who cares?

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See my location tag. I live in (just outside) Ottawa, in Ontario, and Gatineau, Quebec is right across the river. I had my 18th birthday here ages back (well before I lived here), and me and a friend went across the river to go barhopping (drinking being legal for 18+ in Quebec, 19+elsewhere in Canada).

If I hit and killed someone in Quebec with my car (trying to imagine the only way I'd end up responsible for someone's death), I wouldn't drive away past a bunch of Gatineau police until I got home, where I'd hem and haw for an hour or so before going to the local PD to turn myself in.

I'd stay on the scene and call the cops to come to me.

It's not just the "across state lines", it's that he went home to a completely different town, that there's a state line in play just underscores the seriousness involved.

Hell, I got in a pretty bad car accident years back, when a guy tried to pull a U-turn from the outside lane across my lane; my car was technically driveable but a write-off insurance-wise. While myself and the offender (police determination that he was 100% at fault) didn't want to block traffic, one of us called it in (can't recall which this late, probably me), and we drove to the closest PD to make our statements. And this was a case where nobody was even really hurt, not seriously at least.

So yeah; I've been in a situation where I had to go make a statement at a PD. And I didn't drive to a completely different town to make that statement. Which is why I find this particular bit of the story so completely unconvincing, people pretending what Rittenhouse did here to be perfectly reasonable. It freaking wasn't. At all. He killed two people, injured a third, and attempted to kill a fourth, and then fled the scenes of the two shootings he was a part of.

Well yeah, you’re probably more responsible than a kid who goes to Kenosha with a rifle. 17 year old kids are often very dumb. Not as dumb as 13 year olds (who are the dumbest people on earth) but not too far away.

[Aurrora]

See my location tag. I live in (just outside) Ottawa, in Ontario, and Gatineau, Quebec is right across the river. I had my 18th birthday here ages back (well before I lived here), and me and a friend went across the river to go barhopping (drinking being legal for 18+ in Quebec, 19+elsewhere in Canada).

If I hit and killed someone in Quebec with my car (trying to imagine the only way I'd end up responsible for someone's death), I wouldn't drive away past a bunch of Gatineau police until I got home, where I'd hem and haw for an hour or so before going to the local PD to turn myself in.

I'd stay on the scene and call the cops to come to me.

It's not just the "across state lines", it's that he went home to a completely different town, that there's a state line in play just underscores the seriousness involved.

Hell, I got in a pretty bad car accident years back, when a guy tried to pull a U-turn from the outside lane across my lane; my car was technically driveable but a write-off insurance-wise. While myself and the offender (police determination that he was 100% at fault) didn't want to block traffic, one of us called it in (can't recall which this late, probably me), and we drove to the closest PD to make our statements. And this was a case where nobody was even really hurt, not seriously at least.

So yeah; I've been in a situation where I had to go make a statement at a PD. And I didn't drive to a completely different town to make that statement. Which is why I find this particular bit of the story so completely unconvincing, people pretending what Rittenhouse did here to be perfectly reasonable. It freaking wasn't. At all. He killed two people, injured a third, and attempted to kill a fourth, and then fled the scenes of the two shootings he was a part of.

A hit and run is a lot different than shooting someone in self defense and then going to a safe place to turn yourself in. Multiple police officers have described the situation in Kenosha as a "war zone" it was clearly not safe to stay and the Kenosha police department was blocked off.

[Endus]

A hit and run is a lot different than shooting someone in self defense and then going to a safe place to turn yourself in. Multiple police officers have described the situation in Kenosha as a "war zone" it was clearly not safe to stay and the Kenosha police department was blocked off.

So your position is that there were no police in Kenosha who could handle a homicide scene at the time? Literally no officers who could take a moment from riot management to handle actual homicides?

That's ridiculous.

Especially when Kenosha PD showed up in Antioch later that night.

I'll wait till you can provide a statement from the Kenosha PD confirming they were too busy to handle silly little things like a multiple homicide.

Especially when we know he had a working cell phone, since he called a friend after killing Rosenbaum, rather than the police.

Nothing about Rittenhouse's flight was sensible.