Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Elegiac]

To take it in another direction I haven't seen mentioned (since it should go without saying that pending any wildly changing evidence, the cop should go to jail), I wonder if the size of the man (who got killed) is related to the excessive use of force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming

[Themius]

To take it in another direction I haven't seen mentioned (since it should go without saying that pending any wildly changing evidence, the cop should go to jail), I wonder if the size of the man (who got killed) is related to the excessive use of force. According to the broader statistics, there's only a bias in terms of police use of aggression towards black men (not black women, and not through shooting). This is consistent with the premise that black men are physically larger and have larger bone and muscle mass (this data may be outdated and could be proven wrong, but is fairly obvious in this case). If this is true, the obvious solution here is to arm police with tazers isn't it?

That’s bull shit and easily disproven... the average us white male is 5’10. For black men that number is 5’9.

Why do racist people believe silly things like black men are all bigger? Like they’re some fucking monsters...

[LilSaihah]

I'm really confused, is there any particular reason to actually kneel on the neck as opposed to the shoulder?

[Elegiac]

I'm really confused, is there any particular reason to actually kneel on the neck as opposed to the shoulder?

Yep. To be a brutal pig.

What is it with you people and trying to rationalise away pretty clear cut instances of this?

[Kraenen]

That’s bull shit and easily disproven... the average us white male is 5’10. For black men that number is 5’9.

The average (available) testosterone being higher is consistent with the fact that bone density and muscles are bigger. I wasn't strictly speaking of height if that's what you thought. But in that average, are you accounting for different health and diet from lower SES?

Why do racist people believe silly things like black men are all bigger? Like they’re some fucking monsters...

Not sure. Racists are going to believe in things like "all X are Y" and think that average, population level phenotypic differences make entire other groups invalid or inhuman. They think that because we're different, that makes them deserve less rights.

Look at it like this: I'm 6 foot 2. You're likely shorter than me. This does not make either of us a monster. It doesn't make you some kind of gremlin and it doesn't mean I'm a gigantic ape. I probably have stronger bones than you, but that doesn't make me a monster either. It just means physically it takes more to take me down. You can be a Bruce Lee but the odds are going to be against you (and I doubt police officers can be Bruce Lees, as awesome as that would be).

Keep in mind, this is to support the push for police to have tazers, so as to deter excessive and lethal use of aggression and force on the broader scale (this particular incident looks like just a racist person). This would hopefully result in less cases of lethal outcomes (against any demographic background). I'm mindful of cases when tazing goes wrong, but I'd venture those negative consequences are less harmful than the current setup.

[Machismo]

There are so many sickening things about this, but the one that's currently running on a loop in my head is "Why didn't ANYONE, hearing that he was repeatedly saying "I can't breathe" and begging them, run over and push that asshole's knee off his neck?" Fuck. Run with your hands up. Prepare to be arrested for doing so. But fucking get that prick OFF the dude so he can fucking breathe. Put the phone down--or pass it off to a friend or other witness to be used as evidence--and HELP for fuck's sake.

I get it. It's scary. Who knows what might happen to you if you interfere. But if you're just going to stand and watch as this happens LITERALLY RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU then who is going to save you when it's your turn?

I HATE this reality.

- - - Updated - - -



All four have been fired already from what I've read. The streets are FULL of protesters. I don't think this is going to go away as quickly and cleanly as they might want it to, and if that fucker isn't arrested and tried then this is going to continue to come back and bite them on the ass for YEARS.

Would you rush an armed group of men?

[Masark]

There are so many sickening things about this, but the one that's currently running on a loop in my head is "Why didn't ANYONE, hearing that he was repeatedly saying "I can't breathe" and begging them, run over and push that asshole's knee off his neck?"

Because most people aren't actively suicidal?

[Elegiac]

There are so many sickening things about this, but the one that's currently running on a loop in my head is "Why didn't ANYONE, hearing that he was repeatedly saying "I can't breathe" and begging them, run over and push that asshole's knee off his neck?"

No level of wokeness is going to make most people try to fight a cop on a power trip.

It sucks, but systemic problems need systemic solutions. If we're in a place where we're expecting people to have to fight back in order to ensure law enforcement doesn't abuse its power, why have police at all.

[PC2]

No level of wokeness is going to make most people try to fight a cop on a power trip.

It sucks, but systemic problems need systemic solutions. If we're in a place where we're expecting people to have to fight back in order to ensure law enforcement doesn't abuse its power, why have police at all.

You won't even say what the systemic solutions are for law enforcement.

[Endus]

There are so many sickening things about this, but the one that's currently running on a loop in my head is "Why didn't ANYONE, hearing that he was repeatedly saying "I can't breathe" and begging them, run over and push that asshole's knee off his neck?" Fuck. Run with your hands up. Prepare to be arrested for doing so. But fucking get that prick OFF the dude so he can fucking breathe. Put the phone down--or pass it off to a friend or other witness to be used as evidence--and HELP for fuck's sake.

You're not going to be arrested for doing so. You're going to get shot for doing so. And the officer is probably gonna get his shooting of you approved after the fact as a justified action, so you end up dying and probably don't even manage to help the victim on the ground.

If the USA wasn't a nation where a black person moving towards a cop didn't trigger a "THEY COMIN' RIGHT FOR US" kneejerk shooting response, your position might make sense. But the USA is that kind of nation, and that this event occurred there just underscores that.

Edit: Yes, I know #NotAllCops.

I'm pretty comfortable stating #AbsolutelyYesTheseCops.

To take it in another direction I haven't seen mentioned (since it should go without saying that pending any wildly changing evidence, the cop should go to jail), I wonder if the size of the man (who got killed) is related to the excessive use of force.

Only if you're arguing that the officer is A> a piece of cowardly chickenshit that should never have been able to pass his psych eval when applying to become an officer, and B> completely, totally untrained for even the most basic level of his job requirements.

Sure, maybe those are true. But they're just explaining why he should go into a very deep hole for a very long time and his name should be brandished throughout the nation as a racist, murdering fuckhead of a human being. You're explaining why he's that, not that he had some kind of justification.

According to the broader statistics, there's only a bias in terms of police use of aggression towards black men (not black women, and not through shooting). This is consistent with the premise that black men are physically larger and have larger bone and muscle mass (this data may be outdated and could be proven wrong, but is fairly obvious in this case). If this is true, the obvious solution here is to arm police with tazers isn't it? This would help to deter situations like this.

That data is wrong. And reacting that way is pure racism, regardless. Yes, it's likely this officer was a cowardly racist shithead. I'm not sure explaining that repeatedly is really making any difference. You're just explaining the bullshit racists tell themselves to self-justify their own racism to themselves. Nobody feels they're wrong. Racists always think their hatred is good and righteous.

That's why they're horrible people, and why listening to their explanations is a waste of everyone's time and patience. Fuck 'em. Their explanations are wrong, hateful, stupid, and self-serving.

[Kraenen]

Only if you're arguing that the officer is A> a piece of cowardly chickenshit that should never have been able to pass his psych eval when applying to become an officer, and B> completely, totally untrained for even the most basic level of his job requirements.

Sure, maybe those are true. But they're just explaining why he should go into a very deep hole for a very long time and his name should be brandished throughout the nation as a racist, murdering fuckhead of a human being. You're explaining why he's that, not that he had some kind of justification.

How does a small guy actually compare with a larger man? I don't care about this person and as I said before he should go to jail. Police should be better equipped to handle people who are larger and more physically capable than them.

That data is wrong. And reacting that way is pure racism, regardless. Yes, it's likely this officer was a cowardly racist shithead. I'm not sure explaining that repeatedly is really making any difference. You're just explaining the bullshit racists tell themselves to self-justify their own racism to themselves. Nobody feels they're wrong. Racists always think their hatred is good and righteous.

That's why they're horrible people, and why listening to their explanations is a waste of everyone's time and patience. Fuck 'em. Their explanations are wrong, hateful, stupid, and self-serving.

You've said "the data is wrong". Can you provide evidence showing that there are no ethnic differences in bone density, muscle mass, and height (the latter is probably minimal)? The evidence is pretty overwhelming.

You're basically saying it doesn't take more force to take down a larger opponent. This is patently untrue. In this case and others it involves race. Take another situation where an average cop is trying to arrest someone the size of Andre the Giant. You're going to come back to me that the need to use greater force is just bullshit excuses? Plainly wrong.

[Masark]

You won't even say what the systemic solutions are for law enforcement.

1. Disband all American police forces.

2. Imprison all American police officers pending trial on charges of murder, assault, battery, larceny, and/or being an accessory to the above.

3. Demolish all American police stations and police training centres.

4. Sow the land with salt, just to be sure.

5. Start over from scratch and construct a police force. Preferably start with some instructors who may once have heard of the Peelian principles.

[Elegiac]

1. Disband all American police forces.

2. Imprison all American police officers pending trial on charges of murder, assault, battery, larceny, and/or being an accessory to the above.

3. Demolish all American police stations and police training centres.

4. Sow the land with salt, just to be sure.

5. Start over from scratch and construct a police force. Preferably start with some instructors who may once have heard of the Peelian principles.

Pretty much.

Burn it down and salt the earth so that nothing of the like ever grows again.

[Paranoid Android]

This will get closed, cause we have those people who will come in here and derail it.

Yeah happens in my home city and it's bad. The mayor at least quickly fired the 4 asap. Sen Klobuchar put out a weak statement and a bit stronger by agreeing with the firing of the 4 policeman getting fired.

Yeah, the one police officer who watched his partner do this. Just shocking again, that a person who is telling the officer they can't breathe yet the officers continue with their tactic.

Yeah, the police union and whoever will fight it. We will see

[Endus]

How does a small guy actually compare with a larger man? I don't care about this person and as I said before he should go to jail. Police should be better equipped to handle people who are larger and more physically capable than them.

If you're that much smaller than everyone, you shouldn't be able to pass the physicals to become an officer.

If you can pass those physicals, your training can let you handle people a bit bigger than you.

If you panic because a guy's a little bigger than you and you fucking kill him after you've got him subdued and cuffed, you're a pathetic murdering waste of a coward. So we're not really saying anything that helps the guy.

You've said "the data is wrong". Can you provide evidence showing that there are no ethnic differences in bone density, muscle mass, and height (the latter is probably minimal)? The evidence is pretty overwhelming.

I am flatly not going to entertain race realism. It's horseshit that is just a naked and meritless attempt to give racism a thin veneer of false respectability, by pretending it's somehow based on facts.

It isn't.

I'm not going to provide this requested evidence for the same reason I wouldn't provide evidence that Jews aren't scheming manipulators who run the world from the shadows. Asking for such is itself an expression of racism.

[Kraenen]

1. Disband all American police forces.

2. Imprison all American police officers pending trial on charges of murder, assault, battery, larceny, and/or being an accessory to the above.

3. Demolish all American police stations and police training centres.

4. Sow the land with salt, just to be sure.

5. Start over from scratch and construct a police force. Preferably start with some instructors who may once have heard of the Peelian principles.

And then try to fix everything you just broke, which is nearly impossible due to the cycle of violence and poverty.

[Masark]

This image makes the point nicely.

[Elegiac]

And then try to fix everything you just broke, which is nearly impossible due to the cycle of violence and poverty.

Implying American law enforcement isn't part of how that cycle is maintained.

[Kraenen]

If you're that much smaller than everyone, you shouldn't be able to pass the physicals to become an officer.

If you can pass those physicals, your training can let you handle people a bit bigger than you.

If you panic because a guy's a little bigger than you and you fucking kill him after you've got him subdued and cuffed, you're a pathetic murdering waste of a coward. So we're not really saying anything that helps the guy.

If you're suggesting more stringent physical standards for police in general, I'm in agreement. You can provide methodology and data for this.

The other solution is, as I mentioned, having more tazers (hopefully we can get more advanced versions so we don't ironically end up like the first episode of ST:P) so someone can simply be stunned and apprehended. I'm not sure how strong you'd need to be to tackle and apprehend a much larger man, and what the calculus is there, though, and what kind of training is involved.

Are you suggesting height minimums as well? (in line with making sure police are physically capable of handling someone comfortably).

I am flatly not going to entertain race realism. It's horseshit that is just a naked and meritless attempt to give racism a thin veneer of false respectability, by pretending it's somehow based on facts.

It isn't.

I'm not going to provide this requested evidence for the same reason I wouldn't provide evidence that Jews aren't scheming manipulators who run the world from the shadows. Asking for such is itself an expression of racism.

What? .... This is borderline anti-intellectual and just blatant ignorance of readily available scientific findings. Literally, just google scholar "bone density ethnicity". This is apparently some grand conspiracy, though, I take it. Either way, your position is literally anti-science.

[Elegiac]

What? .... This is borderline anti-intellectual and just blatant ignorance of readily available scientific findings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism

You're saying the quiet part out loud, dude.