Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Edge-]

It supports the claim that Rittenhouse was afraid for his life because it supports the claim that he was dangerously unstable.

I don't think a few shouted lines support any claims that one is "dangerous unstable". Much less fatally so.

I mean, have you hung around in a big city with some of the mentally ill homeless populations? Some of them will absolutely act very erratically and shout threats because they're suffering from mental health issues. Yet I don't see people treating them as deadly threats and gunning them down left and right.

The only argument I'm really seeing here is, "Rittenhouse was a panicky kid and panicked" which isn't exactly a strong defense.

[Egomaniac]

That is already enough to feel threatened by him.

You don't need diagnosis to see aggression.

Someone being "aggressive" isn't an automatic justification for deadly force.

[Endus]

I would argue that if a mental patient is being released from a hospital....it's only because his doctors don't feel he is a danger to himself or others.

Also, can we stop saying "mental patient"? This is on the same level as having ADHD or depression or anxiety issues or whatever. He wasn't committed to an institution and wasn't considered a danger to anyone by his doctors. It puts him in the roughly 25% of Americans with a mental health complaint.

Stop stigmatizing mental health. I know you're just parroting it from others, but this is aimed at the thread.

[Micfeind]

Seems to me now people have moved away from the he killed someone in self defence to magically knowing about his priors and his mental health situation.....
You can justify shooting "mentally ill" people how exactly?

[PhaelixWW]

That is already enough to feel threatened by him.

No, really, it's not.

[Endus]

Seems to me now people have moved away from the he killed someone in self defence to magically knowing about his priors and his mental health situation.....
You can justify shooting "mentally ill" people how exactly?

It's standard proto-fascism, basically.

If the victim can be classed as "undesirable", the murderer was just proactively saving the Regime time when they get the camp ovens warmed up. So they'll defend the murder.

They don't see how monstrous that is, because to them, these kinds of murders are the intended and desired outcome.

[Egomaniac]

Also, can we stop saying "mental patient"? This is on the same level as having ADHD or depression or anxiety issues or whatever. He wasn't committed to an institution and wasn't considered a danger to anyone by his doctors. It puts him in the roughly 25% of Americans with a mental health complaint.

Stop stigmatizing mental health. I know you're just parroting it from others, but this is aimed at the thread.

I agree. As you said, I was just responding in the terms that Coniferous was using... but your point stands.

I would also argue that that 25% figure is actually low. That only accounts for people with actually diagnosed mental health complaints.

[Yuujin]

Seems to me now people have moved away from the he killed someone in self defence to magically knowing about his priors and his mental health situation.....
You can justify shooting "mentally ill" people how exactly?

Years and years the news, internet, and other sources dehumanizing metal health patience. They fell for it. When you see the people using this argument, it's pretty unsurprising because they seem to fall for a lot of things.

[Edge-]

No, really, it's not.

I mean, holding a phone in your hand is enough for the cops to feel threatened and justified in shooting someone. The bar is already set pretty low : |

[PhaelixWW]

I mean, holding a phone in your hand is enough for the cops to feel threatened and justified in shooting someone. The bar is already set pretty low : |

Eh, no. That's not even close to a fair comparison. It's not like the police go around blowing people away who are on the phone.

[Micfeind]

Eh, no. That's not even close to a fair comparison. It's not like the police go around blowing people away who are on the phone.

I dunno the NYPD did a good number on Amadou Diallo and all he had was a wallet.

[Coniferous]

Seems to me now people have moved away from the he killed someone in self defence to magically knowing about his priors and his mental health situation.....
You can justify shooting "mentally ill" people how exactly?

No, we're saying that the mental health situation supports the argument of self defense. It supports the argument that Kyle was afraid of Rosenbaum and felt he had to defend himself.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree. As you said, I was just responding in the terms that Coniferous was using... but your point stands.

I would also argue that that 25% figure is actually low. That only accounts for people with actually diagnosed mental health complaints.

And how many people were recently released from the hospital, then decided to walk 4 miles to a protest where they are (for god only knows what reason) helping set dumpsters on fire, yelling "shoot me", then chasing an armed man?

[Micfeind]

But......... how??
You can't use information not known to you at the time to justify an action, if that was the case I claim I have won the lotto by using the winning numbers after the draw and saying I picked the winning numbers, wheres my check?

[Coniferous]

But......... how??
You can't use information not known to you at the time to justify an action, if that was the case I claim I have won the lotto by using the winning numbers after the draw and saying I picked the winning numbers, wheres my check?

This whole "telepathy" argument is a crock of shit. No one here is claiming he knew Rosenbaum was a mental health patient, the point (I think I'm saying it for the 4th time in the past two pages) is that it supports Rittenhouse's claim that Rosenbaum's behavior made him fear for his safety because it suggests Rosenbaum was unstable. Not "beyond a reasonable doubt", but that's not the standard needed for self defense.

[PhaelixWW]

No, we're saying that the mental health situation supports the argument of self defense. It supports the argument that Kyle was afraid of Rosenbaum and felt he had to defend himself.

Again, no it doesn't, because:

1. Rittenhouse didn't know about Rosenbaum's history.
2. It doesn't matter what Rittenhouse was feeling, only what a reasonable person would be.

And how many people were recently released from the hospital, then decided to walk 4 miles to a protest where they are (for god only knows what reason) helping set dumpsters on fire, yelling "shoot me", then chasing an armed man?

None of those are reason enough for a death sentence.

[Egomaniac]

And how many people were recently released from the hospital, then decided to walk 4 miles to a protest where they are (for god only knows what reason) helping set dumpsters on fire, yelling "shoot me", then chasing an armed man?

I don't have those figures.. nor do I see how they would be relevant. Kyle Rittenhouse certainly didn't have any of that information.

I'm just saying that Mental Health professionals are probably a better judge of whether or not one of their patients is a danger to themselves or to others than Kyle Rittenhouse.

[Edge-]

No, we're saying that the mental health situation supports the argument of self defense. It supports the argument that Kyle was afraid of Rosenbaum and felt he had to defend himself.

Again, it doesn't, because Rittenhouse could have in no way, shape, or form, known about this diagnosis. Unless, again, we're on #TeamTelepathy

[PhaelixWW]

This whole "telepathy" argument is a crock of shit. No one here is claiming he knew Rosenbaum was a mental health patient, the point (I think I'm saying it for the 4th time in the past two pages) is that it supports Rittenhouse's claim that Rosenbaum's behavior made him fear for his safety because it suggests Rosenbaum was unstable.

No, it doesn't.

It doesn't suggest that he was unstable.

Whether Rittenhouse thought he was unstable is irrelevant.

The only thing that matters is whether or not a reasonable person would feel like he was a threat to serious bodily harm or death.

The only thing that matters towards that end are Rosenbaum's actions, not Rittenhouse's opinions on them, and not Rosenbaum's history.

[Micfeind]

The quoted statement does not mention telepathy, it argues that you can not justify an action with the grave consequences as the shooting by using information not known at the time and make the shooter out to be the good guy.
The loss of a human life can not be justified in a case of self defence against a "mentally ill" person by using any unsubstantiated information discovered after the occurrence of the incident.

[Coniferous]

No, it doesn't.

It doesn't suggest that he was unstable.

Whether Rittenhouse thought he was unstable is irrelevant.

The only thing that matters is whether or not a reasonable person would feel like he was a threat to serious bodily harm or death.

The only thing that matters towards that end are Rosenbaum's actions, not Rittenhouse's opinions on them, and not Rosenbaum's history.

Being hospitalized doesn't suggest instability?

It is true that what matters is a reasonable person, but it's how a reasonable person would react to Rosenbaum's actions, so yes, Rosenbaum's actions are supremely relevant. And his mental health status support the theory that his actions were not the actions of a stable person.