Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Paranoid Android]

NEW PHOTO: Jury convicts Potter of both counts of manslaughter in shooting of Daunte Wright. She was booked and photographed at the Shakopee prison this afternoon

If you want some good reading this is from local Minneapolis Tribune tweet. It's great, in that it full of racists and stupid comments. Some are bots and some are sadly real people.


Love the mugshot by the way. SMILE!

[Edge-]

Cops should receive more latitude here, because violence is part of the job.

Bullshit. They're specifically trained to deal with the violence. This is, again, arguing that the guy operating heavy machinery turning his coworker into a pancake because he operate the machine he was trained for negligently shouldn't be charged with manslaughter.

Which again, is literally the charge that exists for when you kill someone accidentally out of negligence or a mistake rather than intentionally.

Having made such a critical mistake obviously means you're not fit for the job, but there's no reason to throw a person in jail when the risk of further issue is basically zero - she's not a cop anymore, she's not going to be in violent situations anymore.

I mean...if we use the foundational logic here - the person will lose their job after committing a crime, accidentally, so there's no further risk - is bonkers. You could extend this to a myriad of positions where I think you'd find little support for this.

Also like, the lack of justice for the family of the guy she killed because she couldn't tell the difference between a gun and a taser.

The other argument for punishment is deterrent - and getting fired from a job, having to start a new career at 50 sounds like a hell of a deterrent to me.

"Getting fired" isn't a legal consequence. Justice is sometimes simply about someone serving time for what they've done.

[beanman12345]

https://thehill.com/regulation/court...ting-of-daunte

Ex-officer Kim Potter found guilty in fatal shooting of Daunte Wright

Seemed like a open and shut case of someone deserving several years of prison time for manslaughter as I've seen. I wonder what the defense strategy is for cases like this. Try their damnedest to get someone on the jury with an IQ below 70 to not see the obvious, and then hope that the moron shows complete strength of idiocy to go through deliberation and push hard and get mistrial? Or maybe hope for a KKK judge?

[Edge-]

Operating heavy machinery is far different from subduing criminals. One situation is very controlled, the other isn't.

The whole point of the training is so that officers can remain in control during chaotic situations, dude. So they, you know, don't mistake their taser for a firearm and kill someone with it.

Again, there is no functional difference between the two. Both are accidents on the part of people trained for their jobs, both resulted in someone unintentionally being killed, both would rightly be charged with manslaughter.

[Coniferous]

"Getting fired" isn't a legal consequence. Justice is sometimes simply about someone serving time for what they've done.

But why? How is society better if this harmless person is in jail instead of outside, trying to start a new career?

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The whole point of the training is so that officers can remain in control during chaotic situations, dude. So they, you know, don't mistake their taser for a firearm and kill someone with it.

Again, there is no functional difference between the two. Both are accidents on the part of people trained for their jobs, both resulted in someone unintentionally being killed, both would rightly be charged with manslaughter.

Still disagree. You can't get punched in the face operating heavy machinery. The violence cops have to deal with every day makes it totally different, they're not machines.

[cubby]

Completely disagree:

"In the videos, Ms. Potter is heard shouting that she was going to stun Mr. Wright with her Taser, but she had actually drawn her department-issued Glock. She yelled “Taser! Taser! Taser!” and pulled the trigger. Then, realizing that she had shot him instead, Ms. Potter shouted that she had grabbed the wrong weapon, collapsed to the ground and sobbed as she said she was going to go to prison."

Should she have been fired - absolutely. Thrown in jail for 7 years? What's the point of doing that, it was clearly a mistake. I know that's what manslaughter is for, but there's a big difference between a mistake made when acting recklessly as a private citizen and a mistake made when you're arresting a criminal who is resisting arrest and you're trying to protect your partner. I can't imagine anyone ever wanting to become a cop in these high crime cities in the first place.

Firing a cop is a significant punishment that is adequate deterrent in situations like that. There's no reason to go further.

And I respectfully disagree. Law Enforcement Officers are given extensive weapons training - especially with regards to using deadly force. If she had pulled out her firearm instead of her taser, she should have known better, and taken a moment to ensure it was the correct weapon (and they are marked differently, with neon, so it's blatantly obvious which one she was holding - they even feel different).

Now, if you're saying that she shouldn't be punished for a mistake in the heat of the moment, then all those black men who have been killed because they weren't given a moment in the heat of the moment are calling, asking for their lives back.

We demand that untrained citizens should react instantly to law enforcement orders, with barely a blink of an eye to consider before being shot. That same standard should be held to the TRAINED officers who murder those citizens.

Do I feel bad for her? Of course - she made a terrible "mistake" in the heat of the moment. Does she deserve less. Nope. Because this isn't about her. This is about the victim - and he's never coming back. She gets the rest of her life still. Not him.

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But why? How is society better if this harmless person is in jail instead of outside, trying to start a new career?

The "harmless" murderer? You sure you're in the right thread? She murdered someone. Harmless left the building the moment she fired her weapon.

[Coniferous]

The "harmless" murderer? You sure you're in the right thread? She murdered someone. Harmless left the building the moment she fired her weapon.

She's not a murderer. She's a person who killed someone. And she's harmless because she's not on the force anymore.

[cubby]

Still disagree. You can't get punched in the face operating heavy machinery. The violence cops have to deal with every day makes it totally different, they're not machines.

I actually agree with your first point - LEO's have one of the most dangerous (not deadly) jobs in the world (you will find, despite our differences here, that we agree a LOT on this topic, to be addressed in another thread). And while they aren't machines, they are trained, or should be, and mistakes have consequences. This is one of them.

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She's not a murderer. She's a person who killed someone. And she's harmless because she's not on the force anymore.

The jury disagreed with you. She is, quite literally, a murderer. And she will be harmless while she's in prison, that's for sure.

[Coniferous]

Now, if you're saying that she shouldn't be punished for a mistake in the heat of the moment, then all those black men who have been killed because they weren't given a moment in the heat of the moment are calling, asking for their lives back.

It was mostly "the heat of the moment" because they initiated the problem, as the criminals in the situation. In thinking about this situation, my mind randomly associated it with Marston Riley, the teacher who beat the hell out of a student a few years ago after the student threw a basketball at him and called him a racist name. While the circumstances are different because Riley consciously made his choice and this cop made a mistake, to me the similarity is how difficult the job each person has is. It's incredibly difficult to be working in an urban school district where students have no respect and insult you every day. Some people eventually snap, and while that means they obviously can't ever work again, I don't see it as a criminal thing (the courts didn't either, charges against Riley were dropped). By the same token, it's incredibly difficult to deal with criminals day after day, and some people will eventually make a mistake. When the mistake happens, they obviously need to lose their job, but again, I don't see it as a criminal action.

If you talk about that video with teachers who work in schools with difficult students, they love seeing someone finally fight back. They obviously don't condone it, but it's kind of a wish fulfillment, and I don't begrudge them that - the thousands of insults build up and try anyone's patience.

And to come back around - yes, the people who we pay to be put in this awful situation day after day deserve more consideration than the people who instigate these events.

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The jury disagreed with you. She is, quite literally, a murderer. And she will be harmless while she's in prison, that's for sure.

Manslaughter is not murder.

[s_bushido]

And she's harmless because she's not on the force anymore.

"I may have killed my ex for cheating on me, but I'm harmless now because I'm not in a relationship anymore!"

[postman1782]

Completely disagree:

"In the videos, Ms. Potter is heard shouting that she was going to stun Mr. Wright with her Taser, but she had actually drawn her department-issued Glock. She yelled “Taser! Taser! Taser!” and pulled the trigger. Then, realizing that she had shot him instead, Ms. Potter shouted that she had grabbed the wrong weapon, collapsed to the ground and sobbed as she said she was going to go to prison."

Should she have been fired - absolutely. Thrown in jail for 7 years? What's the point of doing that, it was clearly a mistake. I know that's what manslaughter is for, but there's a big difference between a mistake made when acting recklessly as a private citizen and a mistake made when you're arresting a criminal who is resisting arrest and you're trying to protect your partner. I can't imagine anyone ever wanting to become a cop in these high crime cities in the first place.

Firing a cop is a significant punishment that is adequate deterrent in situations like that. There's no reason to go further.

Wrong. She was a fucking TRAINING OFFICER for 20 fucking years, if you can't tell the grip differences and weight of a fucking taser and a standard issue glock service weapon, you should be lucky if you don't get the fucking death penalty.

The prosecutor isn't going for 7 years, he is going for consecutive sentences for both charges, she will be lucky if she doesn't get 20.

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Again, it's different when your job already involves violently subduing criminals.

No it isn't. There was already 3 other cops on top of him, holding him down, she didn't need to even be there.

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Yup, we're back to the same point of disagreement (complete with unnecessary italics from you). Cops should receive more latitude here, because violence is part of the job. Having made such a critical mistake obviously means you're not fit for the job, but there's no reason to throw a person in jail when the risk of further issue is basically zero - she's not a cop anymore, she's not going to be in violent situations anymore. The other argument for punishment is deterrent - and getting fired from a job, having to start a new career at 50 sounds like a hell of a deterrent to me.

Fuck her, she should get the fucking max sentence, just for being a fucking training officer and failing her training.

[cubby]

It was mostly "the heat of the moment" because they initiated the problem, as the criminals in the situation. In thinking about this situation, my mind randomly associated it with Marston Riley, the teacher who beat the hell out of a student a few years ago after the student threw a basketball at him and called him a racist name. While the circumstances are different because Riley consciously made his choice and this cop made a mistake, to me the similarity is how difficult the job each person has is. It's incredibly difficult to be working in an urban school district where students have no respect and insult you every day. Some people eventually snap, and while that means they obviously can't ever work again, I don't see it as a criminal thing (the courts didn't either, charges against Riley were dropped). By the same token, it's incredibly difficult to deal with criminals day after day, and some people will eventually make a mistake. When the mistake happens, they obviously need to lose their job, but again, I don't see it as a criminal action.

And to come back around - yes, the people who we pay to be put in this awful situation day after day deserve more consideration than the people who instigate these events.

Unfortunately, a civilized society has quite the reverse expectations. Those trained for these situations (law enforcement officers) need to have more patience and understanding and non-panic when they come across these situations. If they don't, then they need more training, etc.

And don't get me wrong - I'm a big proponent of law enforcement. They are typically woefully undertrained, under paid, and spend their entire shift in danger. What's worse, all their daily good deeds and the 99.9999% of the good stuff they do gets cast aside when situations like this arise.

But she took a life, and that should have more consequences than losing your job (which isn't a criminal sanction btw, it's a civil one).

Manslaughter is not murder.

Killer then. Murder definitely has a legal connotation to it, so fine, killer she is.

[Coniferous]

"I may have killed my ex for cheating on me, but I'm harmless now because I'm not in a relationship anymore!"

Not remotely comparable - I agree that she should never be a cop again. You can't tell someone they can never be in a relationship again.

The reason you and Edge keep creating false analogies that aren't comparable is because it's easier to make an argument for this once you twist the story a bit.

[postman1782]

Not remotely comparable - I agree that she should never be a cop again. You can't tell someone they can never be in a relationship again.

Nope. Fuck her, I hope the prosecutor wins and gets the max consecutive sentences for both counts.

[cubby]

Wrong. She was a fucking TRAINING OFFICER for 20 fucking years, if you can't tell the grip differences and weight of a fucking taser and a standard issue glock service weapon, you should be lucky if you don't get the fucking death penalty.

The prosecutor isn't going for 7 years, he is going for consecutive sentences for both charges, she will be lucky if she doesn't get 20.

No it isn't. There was already 3 other cops on top of him, holding him down, she didn't need to even be there.

Seriously? These are the established facts in the case? I thought that was the other (or one of the other) cases that is going on (or had happened).
@Coniferous - super curious how you respond to this information? Training officer for 20 years and the guy was being held down? 7 years is a gift for her.

[draynay]

Manslaughter is not murder.

This forum isn't a courtroom and I'm not referring to her as a manslaughterer, so murderer will do.

[postman1782]

Seriously? These are the established facts in the case? I thought that was the other (or one of the other) cases that is going on (or had happened).
@Coniferous - super curious how you respond to this information? Training officer for 20 years and the guy was being held down? 7 years is a gift for her.

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/18/10654...-shot-daunte-w

https://abcnews.go.com/US/outcome-re...ry?id=81855781

Prosecutors said the 26-year veteran and training officer should not have reached for her stun gun in the first place. They assert that she was reckless and negligent in her actions.

Oh, and they might not have been on top of him, think I am getting the cases mixed up as well, but she is a 20 year training officer.

The one I was thinking of, is the one from the convenience store where there was 3 on top of a suspect and the woman shot him and her fellow officer while the guy was being pinned down.

[Coniferous]

Unfortunately, a civilized society has quite the reverse expectations. Those trained for these situations (law enforcement officers) need to have more patience and understanding and non-panic when they come across these situations. If they don't, then they need more training, etc.

And don't get me wrong - I'm a big proponent of law enforcement. They are typically woefully undertrained, under paid, and spend their entire shift in danger. What's worse, all their daily good deeds and the 99.9999% of the good stuff they do gets cast aside when situations like this arise.

But she took a life, and that should have more consequences than losing your job (which isn't a criminal sanction btw, it's a civil one).




Killer then. Murder definitely has a legal connotation to it, so fine, killer she is.

Still comes back to, why does she need to be in jail? What does it accomplish?

[cubby]

Still comes back to, why does she need to be in jail? What does it accomplish?

Because violent crimes deserve punishment. And a 20 year veteran training officer not knowing which weapon she was holding while shooting a suspect deserves much more than 7 years.

What does punishing violent criminals actually accomplish? That's a whole other question/discussion.

[postman1782]

Still comes back to, why does she need to be in jail? What does it accomplish?

She murdered someone, and you punish murderers. That's what it fucking accomplishes. How the fuck can you not understand this?