Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Endus]

I'm sure you believe that each of those countries has 393 million firearms owned by civilians.

By your own source, Canada's among the nations with the highest proportion of guns per capita. There's a few others in between us and the USA, like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Serbia, but it's a handful.

And I repeat my point; my original position about how non-dangerous police work is was predicated on American statistics, in the first place. American police officers do not have a particularly dangerous job.

[Ghostpanther]

Canada is armed to the teeth. So is Australia. So is Switzerland. They don't have these problems with cops. There is a systemic problem with our policing system where cops have become militarized and emboldened and, in many cases, infiltrated by white supremacists, in conjunction with being poorly trained and under-educated.

That's why the false argument that policing is so dangerous is an important myth to dismiss. Because it's a lie used to justify police violence.

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Nah.

I've actually been pulled over exactly like this. A cop said he smelled weed in my car. A fact that couldn't possibly be true, since weed had never been in my car, ever. When he said he wanted to search my car, I said no. He had no probable cause. And if he wanted to force me out of the car, arrest me, and search my car just to find nothing illegal, I'd have his fucking badge. He smarted off at me and said, "Yeah, and where the fuck did you go to law school?" so I told him where, and he backed the fuck down right quick. He didn't think a tall brown guy listening to rap music could be a lawyer.

I took his badge number anyways and filed a formal complaint.

"Smelled weed" is bullshit 90% of the time. When I was a public defender, I told my clients all the time to ask for a supervisor if any motherfucker said they smelled weed and you knew there was no weed in the car. Get as many people as possible to witness that fucking illegal search. Cops don't just have a right to search your car just because they said some shit.

There is no systematic problem with the US's policing. There are some officers and departments which are not conducting their jobs correctly and in some minority cases, downright disgusting. But the vast majority of police officers do a good job. However, increasing and improving more training for encounters with the public is a good thing to do.

Canada and Switzerland are not faced with the same social issues we have here in the States. You can't compare the two.

Did you have a criminal record of drug possession when the cop pulled you over? And how did the complaint turn out?

[lockedout]

A traffic stop, or a Terry stop, only allows detainment in a very narrow scope. It's a lower bar than probable cause. And to establish probable cause, you need more than a "hunch." In the case of the probable cause of possession of marijuana, yes, SCOTUS has (mistakenly) judged that the smell of marijuana is enough to establish probable cause, but the whole argument here is that there needs to be accountability for them making up lies when they don't actually smell pot so they don't just get away with it. Otherwise, they can just get away with making shit up and then using it to justify any other crimes they happen to come across in their illegal search.

That's why the cop is my situation backed down - he knew he made shit up, and he knew there'd be consequences once I asserted I knew what the fuck I was talking about.

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U.S. easily has the most guns per capita. 112 per 100 people.

Switzerland is 45 per 100 people. Every other civilian has a gun. But they don't have these problems. Sweden and Norway have about 1 in 3 civilians owning a gun. They don't have policing problems. In all three of these countries there's a reason to believe their citizens are armed during any interaction, yet in those places police don't assume their civilians are dangerous. Because their cops are trained well.

We are talking about the video posted not you're experience. Pulled over for expired inspection and the odor of marijuana was detected. The driver was asked to exit the vehicle and refused. He disobeyed a lawful order. The coo was a total asshole but it could gave been avoided since he was called as back up due to the driver not complying with the female officer who originally pulled him over.

[Endus]

There is no systematic problem with the US's policing.

That's a fucking laugh. Pretty much every study of the issue has demonstrated deep, department-wide issues.

Canada and Switzerland are not faced with the same social issues we have here in the States. You can't compare the two.

Pray tell, what "social issues" do you think that is?

Because in my experience, when push comes to shove, you folks always boil that down to "look at all the black people we have to deal with!" Which I shouldn't have to point out is just naked bullshit racism.

[eschatological]

There is no systematic problem with the US's policing. There are some officers and departments which are not conducting their jobs correctly and in some minority cases, downright disgusting. But the vast majority of police officers do a good job. However, increasing and improving more training for encounters with the public is a good thing to do.

Canada and Switzerland are not faced with the same social issues we have here in the States. You can't compare the two.

Did you have a criminal record of drug possession when the cop pulled you over? And how did the complaint turn out?

This is incorrect and has been proven incorrect so many times in this thread that your continual insistence on saying there is no systemic problem in US policing is tiring, and exhausting.

Your "social issues" argument is coded language for "they don't have black people in our numbers!" and has been used as an excuse since the Emancipation Proclamation freed the slaves. It's downright a racist argument to make, since "our social issues" were issues created by the paranoia of racist conservatives over the past 150 years - Confederates thru to Nixon and Reagan, and into the modern Republican party. In other words - it's just a way to throw one's hands up and say, "Man, how we gonna deal with these motherfuckers otherwise?!?" It's an argument rooted in the idea that black people and black culture is inherently inferior.

I obviously had no criminal complaint, I'm a member of the bar and an officer of the court. And the complaint went nowhere even though I bitched about it to my friends in the DA's office. That's most of the problem, yanno. A cop made up a blatant lie he thought he could get away with, backed down under the threat of consequences......and then probably realized later there were no consequences cause there was "no harm, no foul," likely emboldening his shitty behavior. I guess I should have let him falsely arrest me and sued the department so he could have learned his consequences. Edit: but even then, that cost would have been passed on to the taxpayers. Cops aren't required to carry malpractice insurance, so it wouldn't have harmed him in any way regardless.

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We are talking about the video posted not you're experience. Pulled over for expired inspection and the odor of marijuana was detected. The driver was asked to exit the vehicle and refused. He disobeyed a lawful order. The coo was a total asshole but it could gave been avoided since he was called as back up due to the driver not complying with the female officer who originally pulled him over.

Cops can ask you out of the car once they decide to search it. If you refuse, you can be temporarily detained. That's based on the concern for his safety while searching the car, even if the search is illegal. None of that justifies what happened in that video.

[Elegiac]

So... Gestapo. We have Gestapo now.

We've had Gestapo ever since DHS was established. All of this can be traced back to the furor of xenophobia in the wake of 9/11. Now the instruments America mobilized against brown people are being turned on its own citizens.

[Ghostpanther]

This is incorrect and has been proven incorrect so many times in this thread that your continual insistence on saying there is no systemic problem in US policing is tiring, and exhausting.

Your "social issues" argument is coded language for "they don't have black people in our numbers!" and has been used as an excuse since the Emancipation Proclamation freed the slaves. It's downright a racist argument to make, since "our social issues" were issues created by the paranoia of racist conservatives over the past 150 years - Confederates thru to Nixon and Reagan, and into the modern Republican party. In other words - it's just a way to throw one's hands up and say, "Man, how we gonna deal with these motherfuckers otherwise?!?" It's an argument rooted in the idea that black people and black culture is inherently inferior.

I obviously had no criminal complaint, I'm a member of the bar and an officer of the court. And the complaint went nowhere even though I bitched about it to my friends in the DA's office. That's most of the problem, yanno. A cop made up a blatant lie he thought he could get away with, backed down under the threat of consequences......and then probably realized later there were no consequences cause there was "no harm, no foul," likely emboldening his shitty behavior. I guess I should have let him falsely arrest me and sued the department so he could have learned his consequences. Edit: but even then, that cost would have been passed on to the taxpayers. Cops aren't required to carry malpractice insurance, so it wouldn't have harmed him in any way regardless.

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Cops can ask you out of the car once they decide to search it. If you refuse, you can be temporarily detained. That's based on the concern for his safety while searching the car, even if the search is illegal. None of that justifies what happened in that video.

Not true. You can deny it all you want. But if you look at the number of police officers we have in the US and the number of misconduct that is actually proven to be true ( not alleged ) it is easy to see the statistics on the truth.

I am not going to get into a race discussion with you. But social issues can be about more things then just discrimination's.

Well, that is good then and also, why he did not have probable cause. But if he ran a check on your license number and saw the registered owner of the car had one, he would be justified.

The video in question, I have yet to know did the driver have a drug possession record? And was his sticker expired? The details make a difference.

[Elegiac]

I'm sure you believe that each of those countries has 393 million firearms owned by civilians.

Congratulations, you've successfully identified that the Second Amendment is in fact a bad thing.

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Not true. You can deny it all you want. But if you look at the number of police officers we have in the US and the number of misconduct that is actually proven to be true ( not alleged ) it is easy to see the statistics on the truth.

Um, no. Rule of thumb is that only a small fraction of the abuse actually gets reported, let alone taken seriously.

To the tune of, say 40% of cops.

[Shadowferal]

By your own source, Canada's among the nations with the highest proportion of guns per capita. There's a few others in between us and the USA, like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Serbia, but it's a handful.

Lol!
I'm sure you prefer playing with percentages since firearms ownership in the US alone make up almost 50% of the rest of the world's ownership.

[Endus]

Not true. You can deny it all you want. But if you look at the number of police officers we have in the US and the number of misconduct that is actually proven to be true ( not alleged ) it is easy to see the statistics on the truth.

https://www.justice.gov/sites/defaul...ent_report.pdf
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publicatio....aspx?ID=55798
https://www.vox.com/2015/5/7/8562077...-implicit-bias

You'll never be able to back up your position, because it's predicated on racist propaganda, not facts.

[eschatological]

Not true. You can deny it all you want. But if you look at the number of police officers we have in the US and the number of misconduct that is actually proven to be true ( not alleged ) it is easy to see the statistics on the truth.

I am not going to get into a race discussion with you. But social issues can be about more things then just discrimination's.

Well, that is good then and also, why he did not have probable cause. But if he ran a check on your license number and saw the registered owner of the car had one, he would be justified.

The video in question, I have yet to know did the driver have a drug possession record? And was his sticker expired? The details make a difference.

I mean, I've been involved in every level of law enforcement from arrest to parole for hundreds of clients for the first 5 years of my legal career, but I'm sure you have stats that you've misinterpreted badly.

Meanwhile, studies have shown the opposite.

I suppose you would love to elaborate on what "social issues" we have specifically that Canada and Australia and Switzerland don't have?

[Endus]

Lol!
I'm sure you prefer playing with percentages since firearms ownership in the US alone make up almost 50% of the rest of the world's ownership.

I'm just waiting for you to get around to actually making an argument that actually tries to make a point regarding the risks American police experience.

It is, statistically, objectively, not a particularly dangerous profession in the USA. It's on the same level with working in construction.

[Shadowferal]

Congratulations, you've successfully identified that the Second Amendment is in fact a bad thing.

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Um, no. Rule of thumb...

Oh just stop...your "rule of thumb" is based uppn your own hate for cops.
You've admitted that shit thinking before. There isn't anything that you can say about the police that can in any way be believable, let alone be convincing.

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I'm just waiting for you to get around to actually making an argument that actually tries to make a point regarding the risks American police experience.

Had you on ignore.

[Themius]

Oh just stop...your "rule of thumb" is based uppn your own hate for cops.
You've admitted that shit thinking before. There isn't anything that you can say about the police that can in any way be believable, let alone be convincing.

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Had you on ignore.

Do you have a problem with the FBI and DHS noting a sharp rise in KKk and white nationalists among police officers? Do you refute the studies done by the DOJ that say there is a racist problem in the justice department when it comes to treatment of people?

These are the facts we live with, yet it seems people ignore them.

[Elegiac]

Oh just stop...your "rule of thumb" is based uppn your own hate for cops.
You've admitted that shit thinking before. There isn't anything that you can say about the police that can in any way be believable, let alone be convincing.

Look, I know in a post-South Park world any strong form of political opinion is considered equally worthless but - fun fact - it's perfectly alright to hate institutions for justifiable reasons, like being an instrument of oppression.

Source for 40% of cops. It's a reference to the rate of reported domestic violence by cops against their spouses. What do you think they do to criminals, if they do this to their life partners?

We have close to five hundred pages in this thread alone of video and news documentation of police brutality across the country in the span of a few months, while the media spotlight was on police conduct, and yet y'all continue to insist there is not a widespread and systemic problem with law enforcement in this country. Again; what do you think they do when the cameras are off? Behave themselves?

By that logic I suppose you support getting rid of all security cameras and hell, why even have prison guards? The only difference seems to be that one is an institution supported by the state which, by implication, we should apparently be supporting regardless of its conduct?

The amount of logical inconsistency on display in this thread between people that ostensibly claim to support democratic government and the idea of a constitutional republic yet will do everything in their power to excuse blatant displays of authoritarianism because they like the fact said displays target people they disagree with politically. The clownery of it all.

[lockedout]

This is incorrect and has been proven incorrect so many times in this thread that your continual insistence on saying there is no systemic problem in US policing is tiring, and exhausting.

Your "social issues" argument is coded language for "they don't have black people in our numbers!" and has been used as an excuse since the Emancipation Proclamation freed the slaves. It's downright a racist argument to make, since "our social issues" were issues created by the paranoia of racist conservatives over the past 150 years - Confederates thru to Nixon and Reagan, and into the modern Republican party. In other words - it's just a way to throw one's hands up and say, "Man, how we gonna deal with these motherfuckers otherwise?!?" It's an argument rooted in the idea that black people and black culture is inherently inferior.

I obviously had no criminal complaint, I'm a member of the bar and an officer of the court. And the complaint went nowhere even though I bitched about it to my friends in the DA's office. That's most of the problem, yanno. A cop made up a blatant lie he thought he could get away with, backed down under the threat of consequences......and then probably realized later there were no consequences cause there was "no harm, no foul," likely emboldening his shitty behavior. I guess I should have let him falsely arrest me and sued the department so he could have learned his consequences. Edit: but even then, that cost would have been passed on to the taxpayers. Cops aren't required to carry malpractice insurance, so it wouldn't have harmed him in any way regardless.

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Cops can ask you out of the car once they decide to search it. If you refuse, you can be temporarily detained. That's based on the concern for his safety while searching the car, even if the search is illegal. None of that justifies what happened in that video.

So if a cop asks you to exit your vehicle and you refuse now what?

[eschatological]

So if a cop asks you to exit your vehicle and you refuse now what?

They have a right to temporarily detain you and remove you from the car....


...that's not what happened in that video. Not according to any police procedure I've ever known.

[lockedout]

They have a right to temporarily detain you and remove you from the car....


...that's not what happened in that video. Not according to any police procedure I've ever known.

They asked him to exit the vehicle and he refused you're seeing the video from the point of back up showing up to remove him.

[Zython]

So if a cop asks you to exit your vehicle and you refuse now what?

Ideally, the cop gets a search warrant.

[lockedout]

Ideally, the cop gets a search warrant.

You don't need one with probable cause.