Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Endus]

If you define "systemic racism" sufficiently broadly, I will certainly grant that basically anything could be systemic racism in that case.

You're not making an argument that my definition is in any way incorrect or overly broad. You're just making empty assertions because you don't like the conclusion.

My own wager would be that different outcomes between groups don't strictly require racism (or any other form of prejudice) to be the driver. For example, it's pretty hard to tell a story where Norway having more Nobel Prizes than nations like Spain is a result of Nordic people oppressing southern Europeans.

Including "oppression" in there indicates that, in fact, you don't understand what "systemic racism" refers to. Also, that there's other forms of systemic prejudice; racism is simply one factor.

[Draco-Onis]

I don't find the generational wealth argument broadly compelling; I think the discussion in this SSC blog post explains it more robustly than I plausibly can.

You won't find a defender of the police or the judiciary with me. I have a generally low opinion of the individuals involved and have little doubt they tack personal racial animus on top of broadly terrible treatment of citizens. I'm in favor of decriminalization of drugs and changes in police practices to begin to address those problems.

Are you seriously saying that wealth doesn't affect your upbringing and outcomes? Really now?

[Themius]

I'm not actually going to try to address furious rants point by point. I don't post here much any more because the level of heat is way higher than the level of light. To the extent that I'm going to bother, it's surely not going to be with multiple paragraphs attempting to atone for some imagined bigotry on my part. I don't think I've ever expressed racial animus towards any group here.

Oh I am sure you didn't think it was racial animus when you said black people are of inferior intellect because of genetics. Just as Trump doesn't think there's anything racist about white natioanlists.

What you "think" doesn't matter.

[Spectral]

Are you seriously saying that wealth doesn't affect your upbringing and outcomes? Really now?

Parental wealth probably matters a fair bit. Explanations that lean on happenings of the 1880s aren't all that compelling. The connection becomes ever more tenuous over time because the generation to generation wealth correlation isn't as high as some people believe it to be.

[Themius]

Are you seriously saying that wealth doesn't affect your upbringing and outcomes? Really now?

which is funny because he has had the opposite opinion before... me thinks Spectral is becoming more and more financially sound and therefore is adopting the old "fuck everyone I got mines" attitude.

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Parental wealth probably matters a fair bit. Explanations that lean on happenings of the 1880s aren't all that compelling. The connection becomes ever more tenuous over time because the generation to generation wealth correlation isn't as high as some people believe it to be.

1880s... good god...

1880s had programs and such that lasted for decades and influenced laws easily a full century later.

[Draco-Onis]

Parental wealth probably matters a fair bit. Explanations that lean on happenings of the 1880s aren't all that compelling. The connection becomes ever more tenuous over time because the generation to generation wealth correlation isn't as high as some people believe it to be.

The civil rights act passed in 1964, Jim Crow laws existed until 1954. I can go on with more timelines but you are not even trying.

[Themius]

The civil rights act passed in 1964, Jim Crow laws existed until 1954. I can go on with more timelines but you are not even trying.

In all my years arguing with this guy, he's not once acknowledged these issues. Well.. not to say they have an effect on today. Instead usually to diminish it because after all... he was a poor white buy from Boston if I recall, and therefore if a poor white guy from Boston can make it, so can black people everywhere. There are no strcutures in place at all that aided him or people like him and actively worked against black and latinos.

[Draco-Onis]

which is funny because he has had the opposite opinion before... me thinks Spectral is becoming more and more financially sound and therefore is adopting the old "fuck everyone I got mines" attitude.

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1880s... good god...

1880s had programs and such that lasted for decades and influenced laws easily a full century later.

I mean some states had slavery on the books until 2013.

[Paranoid Android]

which is funny because he has had the opposite opinion before... me thinks Spectral is becoming more and more financially sound and therefore is adopting the old "fuck everyone I got mines" attitude.

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1880s... good god...

1880s had programs and such that lasted for decades and influenced laws easily a full century later.

Sorry replying to you and not the faithful Spectral who is full of shit.

I want to comment on him taking about generational wealth and this bullshit statement of some 1880's (why he picked this date?). So there is overwhelming evidence actually that after WWII the GI Bill was so beneficial in educating GI's but also the BIG one was the loans they received to own their first homes. Owning a House is the biggest factor in wealth. The info shows that white homeowners far outpace black homeowners and minorities.

Black veterans and families were excluded from these Bills.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...-wealth-divide

[Xyonai]

Louisville Police Chief Pre-emptively declares a state of emergency in anticipation about Breonna Taylor's case.

[Paranoid Android]

Louisville Police Chief Pre-emptively declares a state of emergency in anticipation about Breonna Taylor's case.

Well that more or less says it. I would not think they would not anticipate a violent reaction if they were pressing charges.

[Xyonai]

Well that more or less says it. I would not think they anticipate a violent reaction if they were pressing charges.

I hope to god that whoever's in office after Trump enacts some sort of federal police oversight because this shit's getting tiresome and frustrating at how absolutely predictable it's becoming.

[jonnysensible]

Louisville Police Chief Pre-emptively declares a state of emergency in anticipation about Breonna Taylor's case.

lmao these fucking people.

[Elegiac]

If you define "systemic racism" sufficiently broadly, I will certainly grant that basically anything could be systemic racism in that case.

My own wager would be that different outcomes between groups don't strictly require racism (or any other form of prejudice) to be the driver. For example, it's pretty hard to tell a story where Norway having more Nobel Prizes than nations like Spain is a result of Nordic people oppressing southern Europeans.

Not really that farfetched considering y'all will leap at any opportunity to declare people insufficiently white in the absence of people of color to demonise.

It's almost as if racism is not in fact a function of individual people being rude.

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Parental wealth probably matters a fair bit. Explanations that lean on happenings of the 1880s aren't all that compelling. The connection becomes ever more tenuous over time because the generation to generation wealth correlation isn't as high as some people believe it to be.

And pretending Jim Crow and things like the War on Drugs aren't things, to boot. Brain worms.

[Elegiac]

Systemic racism cant be real because that means there's lots of racism.

"But there's no way the *entirety* of the western cultural narrative since about the 16th century or so has been underpinned by belief in a racial caste system..."

Cue me in the corner laughing with a margarita and a "The British Empire was Bad, Actually" shirt.

[pathora44]

Not really that farfetched considering y'all will leap at any opportunity to declare people insufficiently white in the absence of people of color to demonise.

It's almost as if racism is not in fact a function of individual people being rude.

Wasn't even just the Irish though they are far the most remembered and one of the most reviled Europeans in the U.S. until around the 1930's, might be wrong but I believe even into the Great Depression the Irish were still hated. The Germans, Italians, Eastern Europeans, etc... were also hated in the U.S. well into the 19th century basically if you weren't from England, France, and I believe Belgium and the Netherlands, could be wrong but I don't remember discrimination against them, then you weren't really white but inhuman trash from Europe in the U.S.

[nonameelf]

Louisville Police Chief Pre-emptively declares a state of emergency in anticipation about Breonna Taylor's case.

Likely means no charges. Which means shit's going to go down in Louisville.

[Draco-Onis]

Wasn't even just the Irish though they are far the most remembered and one of the most reviled Europeans in the U.S. until around the 1930's, might be wrong but I believe even into the Great Depression the Irish were still hated. The Germans, Italians, Eastern Europeans, etc... were also hated in the U.S. well into the 19th century basically if you weren't from England, France, and I believe Belgium and the Netherlands, could be wrong but I don't remember discrimination against them, then you weren't really white but inhuman trash from Europe in the U.S.

Yup from hiring practices to straight out racist advertisement heck Japanese interment camps were in 1945 those people lost everything in a blink of an eye because they weren't white.

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And pretending Jim Crow and things like the War on Drugs aren't things, to boot. Brain worms.

There are people alive today who lived through all this shit, it's laughable people are pretending that this is some ancient past from the 1800s.

[Elegiac]

There are people alive today who lived through all this shit, it's laughable people are pretending that this is some ancient past from the 1800s.

Shockingly enough entitled elites usually get quite defensive about the status quo they benefit from, hence the willingness to pretend the problem isn't there.

[Shalcker]

Are you seriously saying that wealth doesn't affect your upbringing and outcomes? Really now?

There are examples like Chinese wealthy owners that had everything confiscated in revolution with their families being persecuted... their descendants are still doing better then average today despite obvious discrimination against them.

Were their outcomes hurt by losing that wealth? Certainly. But not everything is decided by generational wealth; and claiming it to be sole reason (or even main reason) for someone's continued plight is terribly reductive.