Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Ripster42]

Looks like one of the guys involved in the Nazario incident has already been fired. Wonder why his situation was different from the other guy, and why they both haven't been fired. Wonder if they'll see assault charges.

[postman1782]

Looks like one of the guys involved in the Nazario incident has already been fired. Wonder why his situation was different from the other guy, and why they both haven't been fired. Wonder if they'll see assault charges.

See, I have a problem with that, sure, him being fired is fine, but he pepper sprayed him, and pulled a gun on him. Both of which I believe are felonies, he should be lucky he isn't being arrested as well.

[Stelio Kontos]

Can you guys please keep this stuff to your countries? I don't need a bunch of entitled college brats telling us we can't have statues of Pericles, Leonidas, Alexander the Great, Plato, Socrates because they offend someone. I won't tell you what statues to put up in Portland, promise.

Also, didn't rioters in Wisconsin tear down a statue of an abolitionist?

Yeah, here it is.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/isabelt...h=31547aa86961

Guess they just saw a statue of a white guy and that was enough.

[Ripster42]

See, I have a problem with that, sure, him being fired is fine, but he pepper sprayed him, and pulled a gun on him. Both of which I believe are felonies, he should be lucky he isn't being arrested as well.

It's a good first step, so I'm delaying judgement.

Depends on the location, but it looks like the pepper spray might be a felony (though the statutes that might apply have some major wiggle), but the other one looks like a misdemeanor barring the proximity of certain buildings. Still, charge em and let the courts sort it.

[Krakan]

Think about it this way: The people who were always bothered or harmed by the actions of an individual, may not have the voice they will in the future. When you ask "why did we change how we view things?", first think about who is speaking in the first place. It's not that people are judging others with modern standards, but a case of pre-existing concerns having enough voices to be heard. Those who may be changing their minds are the groups that a 'hero' once represented, who may feel different due to their current values.

People's values aren't stagnant, so it's not at all strange for a guy from even 5 to 500 years ago to no longer resonate with the current populace. That's not strange in the slightest and especially not strange for groups that the same person hurt to despise them. So where do we go from there? I don't know, since how much you idolize or want to celebrate a figure is a personal matter. How much you identify with them and the amount of supposed guilt you feel for it is a personal matter too.

Most major figures aren't all good or all bad, so someone is bound to justifiably hate them. I accept it, that's natural. Look at my country, would I blame people for hating it? Nah, If I was a victim of our foreign affairs I would too.

This also seems to assume that people only become more empathetic as time goes on it moves in both directions just look at isis the other group using violence and fear to spread a message.

I will always look at those trying to tear down history as foolish. Erasing the past isn't effect. It's one thing for a monument to fall to disrepair but for them to be torn down usually shows nothing but hubris and foolishness from those involved.

[Themius]

Can you guys please keep this stuff to your countries? I don't need a bunch of entitled college brats telling us we can't have statues of Pericles, Leonidas, Alexander the Great, Plato, Socrates because they offend someone. I won't tell you what statues to put up in Portland, promise.

Also, didn't rioters in Wisconsin tear down a statue of an abolitionist?

Yeah, here it is.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/isabelt...h=31547aa86961

Guess they just saw a statue of a white guy and that was enough.

I see so the minorities in the UK shouldn't have a voice and should just stfu in your mind?

[s_bushido]

I will always look at those trying to tear down history as foolish. Erasing the past isn't effect.

Another sentiment that probably sounds profound to the people saying it, but in reality is utterly meaningless. Tearing down statues isn't "erasing history."

The only people who want us to forget our past are those trying to get us to fixate on the destruction of stone and bronze instead of the centuries of subjugation (and continuing social and political issues) those monuments represent.

[Endus]

I will always look at those trying to tear down history as foolish. Erasing the past isn't effect. It's one thing for a monument to fall to disrepair but for them to be torn down usually shows nothing but hubris and foolishness from those involved.

Tearing down statues is not "tearing down history", and does not in any way "erase the past".

It simply ends the continued celebration of that particular figure or event.

The historical record is not in any way negatively impacted by removing statues. Nobody forgets who Hitler was because there are no more Hitler statues around. It's a completely ridiculous and empty argument, and I do not for one second think you actually believe it to be true. It's just a cover story, so you don't have to speak your real mind. It's too completely ridiculous an idea for it to be an honestly-held belief.

[Stelio Kontos]

I see so the minorities in the UK shouldn't have a voice and should just stfu in your mind?

Like I said, you westerners do whatever the hell sort of shit you want. Just please don't export that cancer. I don't need to see my country's history get torn down to please some spoiled college kids.

[Themius]

Like I said, you westerners do whatever the hell sort of shit you want. Just please don't export that cancer. I don't need to see my country's history get torn down to please some spoiled college kids.

You suffer from inability to understand or even think through this situation we are talking about here.

Tearing down statues of slavers... "oh no that's crazy!!" says the white guy... yet you don't realise how ridiculous that is?

Did you think tearing down hitler statues was crazy?

[Stelio Kontos]

You suffer from inability to understand or even think through this situation we are talking about here.

Tearing down statues of slavers... "oh no that's crazy!!" says the white guy... yet you don't realise how ridiculous that is?

Did you think tearing down hitler statues was crazy?

I'm not getting involved in the madness of your guys' politics anymore. I'm just asking you to keep it in your countries and not come tearing down statues in Greece or other countries. I shudder to think how much property damage "social justice protesters" could do with so many statues everywhere in Greece. So do what you will, just keep it there.

[Endus]

I'm not getting involved in the madness of your guys' politics anymore. I'm just asking you to keep it in your countries and not come tearing down statues in Greece or other countries. I shudder to think how much property damage "social justice protesters" could do with so many statues everywhere in Greece. So do what you will, just keep it there.

I mean, you could just say you don't understand why these particular statues are being torn down. You're drawing a blatant false equivalence.

Also, it's pretty amusing seeing you talk about "your country" of Greece when your location clearly says "Seattle".

[Stelio Kontos]

I mean, you could just say you don't understand why these particular statues are being torn down. You're drawing a blatant false equivalence.

Also, it's pretty amusing seeing you talk about "your country" of Greece when your location clearly says "Seattle".

Yeah, I live in Seattle. But all my family is back in Greece. I'm also leaving the West Coast in the next month. I stopped trying to understand this idiocy when they tore down an abolitionist statue in Wisconsin and a deer statue in Portland.

[Polyxo]

It isn't.

"Monuments to this mass murdering slaver are OK because he built schools and churches!"

"Monuments to this mass murdering slaver are OK because he built the autoban!"

Thanos statues for saving (half) the whales.

[Rozz]

This also seems to assume that people only become more empathetic as time goes on it moves in both directions just look at isis the other group using violence and fear to spread a message.

I will always look at those trying to tear down history as foolish. Erasing the past isn't effect. It's one thing for a monument to fall to disrepair but for them to be torn down usually shows nothing but hubris and foolishness from those involved.

It doesn't, as stated people will favor those with similar ideals to themselves. If you have a figure that doesn't match up, they'll likely not stay up. See Mao in China. Once a hero and now people are allowed to criticize him a little more freely. He doesn't match up.

The rest doesn't really have anything to do with the context of what happened or what I said.

It also bears pointing out that statues and such aren't really "for" the people they portray. They're for the people of today. And which statues and figures we celebrate should, thus, reflect the mores of that modern society, regardless of their historical relevance.

Exactly. That's how it's always been. Your local museums cycle through pieces for the same reasons, art has relevance to those who give it.

[Endus]

Yeah, I live in Seattle. But all my family is back in Greece. I'm also leaving the West Coast in the next month. I stopped trying to understand this idiocy when they tore down an abolitionist statue in Wisconsin and a deer statue in Portland.

In both cases, you're talking about statues damaged during protests that lashed out in violence. Neither statue was targeted for what it represented.

That's just a naked false equivalence to the official tearing down of statues because those they represent were slavers or Confederates.

[Ivanstone]

Can you guys please keep this stuff to your countries? I don't need a bunch of entitled college brats telling us we can't have statues of Pericles, Leonidas, Alexander the Great, Plato, Socrates because they offend someone. I won't tell you what statues to put up in Portland, promise.

Also, didn't rioters in Wisconsin tear down a statue of an abolitionist?

Yeah, here it is.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/isabelt...h=31547aa86961

Guess they just saw a statue of a white guy and that was enough.

Sometimes dumb stuff happens. If something is erroneously broken, its sometimes possible to fix it. The statue in question is currently being repaired.

Also Leonidas is a panty waist with an overblown reputation.

[Stelio Kontos]

In both cases, you're talking about statues damaged during protests that lashed out in violence. .

It's still idiotic.

If I went and burned down Kemal Ataturk's museum in Thessaloniki because he actually carried out ethnic cleansing; arguably far worse than the crimes committed by many of the people made statues of, it wouldn't change one fucking thing. It wouldn't correct a single crime committed. I don't really care about confederate statues, I don't really care about American ethnic relations any more than the average American cares about what was done in my corner of the world (not at all, since you westerners keep supporting the nation that did those things). But honestly, it just seems like impotent tantrums to target statues.

[Rozz]

Can you guys please keep this stuff to your countries? I don't need a bunch of entitled college brats telling us we can't have statues of Pericles, Leonidas, Alexander the Great, Plato, Socrates because they offend someone. I won't tell you what statues to put up in Portland, promise.

Also, didn't rioters in Wisconsin tear down a statue of an abolitionist?

Yeah, here it is.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/isabelt...h=31547aa86961

Guess they just saw a statue of a white guy and that was enough.

To be fair, a lot of "old world" countries take pride in their history of conquest and blood so I doubt most of those are coming down. More likely to get stolen and shipped to a tourist trap.

[Krakan]

Tearing down statues is not "tearing down history", and does not in any way "erase the past".

It simply ends the continued celebration of that particular figure or event.

The historical record is not in any way negatively impacted by removing statues. Nobody forgets who Hitler was because there are no more Hitler statues around. It's a completely ridiculous and empty argument, and I do not for one second think you actually believe it to be true. It's just a cover story, so you don't have to speak your real mind. It's too completely ridiculous an idea for it to be an honestly-held belief.

I suppose it would seem near hysterical to think people would rather historical moments exist rather then nothing but a vandalozed fondation. It is ridiculous isn't it. We are far better of destroying things to please a mob that doesn't really grasp what it doing. Unless your telling me there is a rymthe and reason to them destroying an all black regiment memorial?

All I can do is shake my head at you. I can forgive those fools to an extent. Children lashing out will always be destructive as they tantrum but you like to hold yourself aloft of them. Excusing them or trying to cover...well that measures a man.