Are "oneshot" groups okay?

[Kaver]

Everyone can make a group and invite anyone he wants by any principles he wants. If you have a problem with it then it's "you' problem.

If you don't like his rules, make your own group with your own rules. It's that simple. Honestly I don't see how there is anything to discuss here at all.

You saw what happened to Master loot. Blizzard didn’t think the player should be allowed to decide for themselves. So who says this cannot also happen with raid grouping at some point. Blizzard might decide that it’s “unfair” and force people to group up together.

[VinceVega]

It was not meant to be a guild scenario. But I realize that it sounds like one. I changed this in the OP.

Then why the hell would i feel obliged to help a group of people i don't know?

[Kaver]

Then why the hell would i feel obliged to help a group of people i don't know?

I don’t know. But some people in here clearly feel entitled to your help.

[kranur]

No one can force you to so anything. Moreso with random people that are not part of your guild/organization or whatever.

The better question is are the mechanics and requirements of what you're doing very high that you need people who fully understand them and are very good?
Like, if you organize a normal run what would be the damage to also get a few people that have not yet cleared said content and tell them what to do.
Leading a group is not just inviting people, it's also organizing them.

[Kaver]

No one can force you to so anything. Moreso with random people that are not part of your guild/organization or whatever.

The better question is are the mechanics and requirements of what you're doing very high that you need people who fully understand them and are very good?
Like, if you organize a normal run what would be the damage to also get a few people that have not yet cleared said content and tell them what to do.
Leading a group is not just inviting people, it's also organizing them.

But is it really a good way for people to learn the game if they just join a group of overpowered players and get carried though the content without experiencing the mechanics?

[matrix123mko]

What I don't understand is why only LFG groups are ones led by group 2 person that only invite people from group 1.

[Razion]

Raiding is a cooperative endeavor. Collectively as a community the player-base is stronger when everyone works together.

[T-34]

There are no incentives anymore in-game to "carry" lesser skilled/experienced players.
There was such an incentive before with master loot, where you could invite lesser skilled players to your raid and "carry" them and they "paid" for such a raid with loot.
The better players got more loot, the worse players got experience. A win-win situation.

After Blizzard made personal loot mandatory that incentive is no more. And good players have no reason whatsoever to carry LegolasXXX or ArthasDKlol anymore.
And Legolas and ArthasDK are very, very angry!!! How dare they not carry me anymore!!!

[Super Kami Dende]

Are group 1 and 2 both required to play together if your numbers are lacking? If so, maybe Group 1 should help with Group 2. If not, Let them progress individually.

[glowpipe]

Should group 1 feel obligated? Ofcourse not. But what if blizzard added a incentive to make group 1 want to help group 2 ?

Game would have been a lot better if the "link mythic edge and your position in the Forbes magazine top 100 billionaires list plus a selfie on you walking on the moon" to clear heroic or even normal. What if it was simply "need dps and a tank for nya'lotha, new players welcome"

Blizzard could implement a mentoring program where people who had cleared the raid on a higher difficulty, and did it again on a lower dif with players who hadn't cleared it, was awarded with something that was significant enough to make them ignore the fact that it would take longer and that you would perhapsibly die, more than once.

Things they also could do is give you free consumables for the mentor raid and void the repair cost for gear, so players helping lost nothing and was instead awarded for it and got something out of it themselves

[Dalinos]

But should you be obligated to do it?

Yes. Heavens yes. You want people's opinion on this issue? Here's mine then.

From TBC till end of MOP I was a maintank for EU top 500 guilds. I would walk in Sethekk Halls heroic wearing a mix of T6 and SWP gear, as a Bear druid. I took ANYONE in my group. The newbies. The ungeared. The children. I didn't care if the run took 15 mins longer. Sethekk Halls heroic can be 2manned by 2 top-end raiders in SWP gear, the rest are just bodies. Wanna know what happened at the end of the run? Joy everywhere. The newbies were glad they finally got to finish a run. The children were ecstatic that they got the epic staff from the last boss, cause the Mage I brought over from my guild was using a Black Temple weapon. Why did I do this, you ask?

Because it's an insult to my pride that I, a decked out end-game raiding top 500 EU maintank can't fucking nearly solo Sethekk Halls heroic. Ofc I can. And I did.

Move onwards to WOTLK. Daily heroic through the dungeon finder. I walk in in full 213/258/277 gear (Naxx, TOTGC, ICC gear respectively) and proceed to wreck the instance as a tank, finishing the run with about 40% dmg done. That's total dmg done, overall, for the whole dungeon. The randoms I had with me were ECSTATIC. They got a taste of what TRUE POWER is, seeing someone decked out in the best gear pretty much soloing the instance and being like "Don't worry bros, I got this, just keep up with me and have fun".

What's the point of reaching godlike status in the game, by having the best gear available, and not using it in random content that is beneath you (but you still do for, in WOTLK's case, Emblems of Frost) to show the rest of the populace what it's like?

I'm not even gonna start about what shit I was pulling in MOP as a tank when we had the Vengeance mechanic. If I was doing 40% of the party's dmg in WOTLK, imagine what I was doing in MOP as an end-game geared tank with Vengeance.

I'd rather be the cause of amazement and awe in a new player's/worse player's eyes, than be a cause of hate. We raiders NEED a large pool of potential raiders so our guilds don't die out. Instead of being an elitist dick who doesn't wanna group up with players beneath them, do the opposite. Be a source of inspiration for these new players, so that they can aspire to be like you one day. Cause it's in your benefit as a raider. It makes the pool of potential raiders larger.

I will concede one point though, on second thought. In TBC, where server community was much stronger, due to the absence of cross-realm LFD, all this made sense. You saw the same people every day on your server. People remembered "That bear tank that solo-tanks KZ pugs twice a week cause he just feels like it and takes anyone to gear them up". With the advent of realms dying out, due to cross-realm LFG, I mostly continued to do it out of habit, and out of pride.

[SkagenRora]

Wow, tbh that is just BS. If you don't know tactics for a hc boss, you are too lazy to watch a 2 minute video. I really don't understand why I should make my HC run 4,5, or even 6hrs instead of two, because some people are to lazy to invest 30 minutes into watching a guide.

I am not saying you should never help, but not chosing to help people is not a dick move, helping people is just a nice move.

I was under the impression that the question was strictly guild group related with no PuGs or LFD people. Sorry if i misunderstood something.

And also, My messaged said ”Don’t invite them as that would be boosting, But tell them how they can improve so they might be able to joon future runs

[Nite92]

I was under the impression that the question was strictly guild group related with no PuGs or LFD people. Sorry if i misunderstood something.

I guess it is worded quite ambigously. OP clarified that it is a pug scenario later on.

[SkagenRora]

But that is not the case here, this is the fisher that feels entitled for you to feed him, he doesn't wanna learn to fish. He doesn't wanna study any fights at all, he is perfectly fine being ressed after he died. And he also does not wanna join any raid that is not curve only, even though he himself has none.

Are there exceptions? A few probably, but most people that wanna learn joins a guild that fits their schedule

I was under the impression that the question was strictly guild group related with no PuGs or LFD people. Sorry if i misunderstood something.

[Kaver]

I was under the impression that the question was strictly guild group related with no PuGs or LFD people.

Yeah that’s my bad. I didn’t really make it clear. I was trying to use Group 1 and 2 as symbolic representation of the playerbase without realizing that I made it sound like a Guild.

[Eazy]

Yes. Heavens yes. You want people's opinion on this issue? Here's mine then.

From TBC till end of MOP I was a maintank for EU top 500 guilds. I would walk in Sethekk Halls heroic wearing a mix of T6 and SWP gear, as a Bear druid. I took ANYONE in my group. The newbies. The ungeared. The children. I didn't care if the run took 15 mins longer. Sethekk Halls heroic can be 2manned by 2 top-end raiders in SWP gear, the rest are just bodies. Wanna know what happened at the end of the run? Joy everywhere. The newbies were glad they finally got to finish a run. The children were ecstatic that they got the epic staff from the last boss, cause the Mage I brought over from my guild was using a Black Temple weapon. Why did I do this, you ask?

Because it's an insult to my pride that I, a decked out end-game raiding top 500 EU maintank can't fucking nearly solo Sethekk Halls heroic. Ofc I can. And I did.

Move onwards to WOTLK. Daily heroic through the dungeon finder. I walk in in full 213/258/277 gear (Naxx, TOTGC, ICC gear respectively) and proceed to wreck the instance as a tank, finishing the run with about 40% dmg done. That's total dmg done, overall, for the whole dungeon. The randoms I had with me were ECSTATIC. They got a taste of what TRUE POWER is, seeing someone decked out in the best gear pretty much soloing the instance and being like "Don't worry bros, I got this, just keep up with me and have fun".

What's the point of reaching godlike status in the game, by having the best gear available, and not using it in random content that is beneath you (but you still do for, in WOTLK's case, Emblems of Frost) to show the rest of the populace what it's like?

I'm not even gonna start about what shit I was pulling in MOP as a tank when we had the Vengeance mechanic. If I was doing 40% of the party's dmg in WOTLK, imagine what I was doing in MOP as an end-game geared tank with Vengeance.

I'd rather be the cause of amazement and awe in a new player's/worse player's eyes, than be a cause of hate. We raiders NEED a large pool of potential raiders so our guilds don't die out. Instead of being an elitist dick who doesn't wanna group up with players beneath them, do the opposite. Be a source of inspiration for these new players, so that they can aspire to be like you one day. Cause it's in your benefit as a raider. It makes the pool of potential raiders larger.

I will concede one point though, on second thought. In TBC, where server community was much stronger, due to the absence of cross-realm LFD, all this made sense. You saw the same people every day on your server. People remembered "That bear tank that solo-tanks KZ pugs twice a week cause he just feels like it and takes anyone to gear them up". With the advent of realms dying out, due to cross-realm LFG, I mostly continued to do it out of habit, and out of pride.

I got your point. Which seems kinda weird tbh for me right now, I wouldn't step into random heroics with mythic gear just to show other players that I am above them.

But me? It's not fun, I personally have no time to waste, I've got to do what I want to do. Wasting time with people who aren't pulling their weight or just to show them how OP am I? Not really.
My time is too precious and I have really tight schedule, so it's almost impossible to do such a thing in video games for me... Though I would lie if I say that I wasn't doing that a few expansions ago.

[Doffen]

Give the man a job, and he can buy the fish himself.

[Sinfelle]

When it comes to raid progession (no matter what difficulty it is) we have two groups in a simplified version:

Group 1) People who have progressed.

Group 2) People who have not progressed yet.

Naturally Group 2 often would like some help from Group 1.

Now the questions are:

Should Group 1 feel obliged to help Group 2 even though it means they would have to spend time reprogressing the content? Or is it fair to want a quick reclear of content which they have already beaten?

Should people from Group 2 stop expecting help from Group 1 and instead make raid-teams with other people from Group 2 so they can progress together?

Edit: I realize now that this sounds like a guild scenario, but it’s not meant to be. Group 1 and Group 2 are representations of the player base in general. My bad.

I'll help and be patient in the initial month or so of each tier, but after that you're just wasting my time. Why should I spend my time holding your hand when you can't put forth the minimal effort to learn mechanics and strats? If after a month you don't know what to do, you are looking for a carry and not actual improvement and understanding. Buy a carry at that point and stop looking for handouts. I just want to go in a blast through a quick heroic, get my loot, and leave. I've got other shit to do.

*Mythic raiding is the exception because it's more about execution than knowledge.

[Dalinos]

I got your point. Which seems kinda weird tbh for me right now, I wouldn't step into random heroics with mythic gear just to show other players that I am above them.

But me? It's not fun, I personally have no time to waste, I've got to do what I want to do. Wasting time with people who aren't pulling their weight or just to show them how OP am I? Not really.
My time is too precious and I have really tight schedule, so it's almost impossible to do such a thing in video games for me... Though I would lie if I say that I wasn't doing that a few expansions ago.

Re-read my post mate. The reason I used to do that shit was because a) Karazhan was the best source to farm Badges of Justice, which were relevant till the end of TBC, and β) WOTLK Daily Heroic was relevant due to always rewarding the highest level badges. As a competitive raider, you had no option but to do them. It was a given. You don't miss out on Emblems of Frost, when you could only get 30ish per week (23-24 from raid, 7 from daily HC). Same applies to MOP - the satchel for Call To Arms! Tank was AMAZING in MOP, it would be a big waste if I DIDNT do them. So it's not a question of WHY I did them. I did them cause I had to. The point is WITH WHO DID I DO THEM WITH. And I'd much rather open the eyes of newer players of what they can potentially reach, than go with a full guild group and finish the run 10 mins earlier.

[Melusine]

When it comes to raid progession (no matter what difficulty it is) we have two groups in a simplified version:

Group 1) People who have progressed.

Group 2) People who have not progressed yet.

Naturally Group 2 often would like some help from Group 1.

Now the questions are:

Should Group 1 feel obliged to help Group 2 even though it means they would have to spend time reprogressing the content? Or is it fair to want a quick reclear of content which they have already beaten?

Should people from Group 2 stop expecting help from Group 1 and instead make raid-teams with other people from Group 2 so they can progress together?

Edit: I realize now that this sounds like a guild scenario, but it’s not meant to be. Group 1 and Group 2 are representations of the player base in general. My bad.

Is this really a problem? Given the parameters you've mentioned here, this is as good an answer as I have for it.

Should Group 1 feel obliged to help Group 2 even though it means they would have to spend time reprogressing the content?

Are we talking adults that can think on their own without being governed by weird expectations from others? Now, if Group 1 wants to help out, that is what you call good community. It's a nice feeling to help others out and just trying to relax. Besides, it is entirely possible group 1.... every single one of them has an alt they could use to help them out. Now they're helping each other out.

Should people from Group 2 stop expecting help from Group 1 and instead make raid-teams with other people from Group 2 so they can progress together?

It's all in the expectation factor, here. But then again, you lose 100% of the opportunities you never take. But then, let's assume Group 3 shows up. These guys already have CE. Should Group 2 be surprised when a few members from Group 1 are actually in Group 3 on mains, and convey to the guild leader of group 3 what douches group 2 is, and they decide to tell group 2 how, where and for how long they should go fuck themselves, should group 2 then have a right to be upset? No.

What goes around comes around. Even in Azeroth...