Who side are you on?

[Doctor Amadeus]

I'm against violence and wish the protests would not take that turn, but threatening to deploy active duty troops against American civilians crosses a line for me. With that on the line, my answer has to be "the protesters".

Because I grew up in a time when we were addressing issues of race that had been fermenting since the Civil War. Things were supposed to get better and I have no sense that they have. Using even the National Guard against protesters brings back bad memories and Trumpmenbashi wants to push things further. No. He isn't emperor.

Broadly, I suppose social inequality could be advanced as a single cause that's expressed as frustration over things that were an issue 100 years ago and keep getting a new coat of paint, but that's a generalization. It explains the fuel for the fire, but not the sparks that set it off. We keep seeing protests, the issues remain similar to earlier rounds of protest, there are attempts to toss out a bone here and there after each round, but very little actual change takes place.

This is quit valuable, with your experience and unique position being where you live, I think there is a lot to take away from your perspective. I often times when I was a bit younger would see the bumper stickers Free Tibet for example, with honest and sincere demonstrations by those who supported it.

That being said I can only ever read books or history from that of someone who has never been on Chinese soil, for better or worse and without taking sides. Irregardless of whatever perspective I have, I am unqualified to even speak on specifics without being ignorant.


I would say that I believe in LAW and ORDER too, but at the same time I also believe there becomes a line you cross when you subvert the will of the people for that of state. I think the argument then is greater good.

Rioting and looting are totally fucking unacceptable, however so is murder, citizens can't be controlled by those who are empowered to uphold the law who don't actually follow it.

Obviously there has to come a point where it is very much do as I said not as I do, and those with some authority have understand that along with the general populace. but to me this comes down to a lot more than laws, and anything written on a peace of paper.

The will of the people is clear, police brutality and clear evidence of murder gone unanswered is also unacceptable.


My personal view is that Murder and Police Corruption is MORE unacceptable right now, and complacency is getting people murdered.


It's not just Thugs and those resisting arrest being killed. Governments need to always be held accountable.


I believe in LAW AND ORDER, but I also believe Governments should fear their people should they step out of line, not the other way around.

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Well it did make things a bit better however even now there is still a long way to go with the most recent example been given a few days ago in Minneapolis.

Well it changed things, however better is a qualitative distinction, we still have an entire justice system ignoring people being targeted.

[Thekri]

Yeah but nobody is gonna stop the US army :/

Except the Vietcong. Or the Lebanese. Or the Sunni Militias. Or the Taliban. Or various cartels. Or Civil Rights protestors. Or basically anyone else that isn't an organized military.

I mean seriously, it isn't really very hard to stop the US Army. It is just hard to actually defeat them. Stopping them is pretty easy, they play by the rules, and everyone knows what those rules are.

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Yep and most level headed people don't blindly fit into those shoehorned categories anyways, many people have things they are liberal about and things they are conservative about, the problem is labeling yourself because soon as you do you picked your "team".

I mean I am strongly Pro-gun, moderately anti-Abortion, pro-military (with caveats) and strongly fiscally conservative (Against government healthcare and such, although more on pragmatic grounds then ideological), also against government paid college. I am also strongly pro-immigration, hugely concerned about the environment, anti-mass imprisonment (And basically everything else about our criminal justice system), pro-civil rights and tolerance for basically everyone. I wouldn't really define myself as "Conservative" any more, but like you said, the categories are arbitrary in the first place. Most liberals consider me conservative, most conservatives consider me liberal, and I claim neither. I am not a centrist either though, I tend to be one way or the other on most issues, in the middle on only a few.

[Unholyground]

I mean I am strongly Pro-gun, moderately anti-Abortion, pro-military (with caveats) and strongly fiscally conservative (Against government healthcare and such, although more on pragmatic grounds then ideological), also against government paid college. I am also strongly pro-immigration, hugely concerned about the environment, anti-mass imprisonment (And basically everything else about our criminal justice system), pro-civil rights and tolerance for basically everyone. I wouldn't really define myself as "Conservative" any more, but like you said, the categories are arbitrary in the first place. Most liberals consider me conservative, most conservatives consider me liberal, and I claim neither. I am not a centrist either though, I tend to be one way or the other on most issues, in the middle on only a few.

I feel more people need to take a step back and really think what they care about, not enough people do this.

[Doctor Amadeus]

I mean I am strongly Pro-gun, moderately anti-Abortion, pro-military (with caveats) and strongly fiscally conservative (Against government healthcare and such, although more on pragmatic grounds then ideological), also against government paid college. I am also strongly pro-immigration, hugely concerned about the environment, anti-mass imprisonment (And basically everything else about our criminal justice system), pro-civil rights and tolerance for basically everyone. I wouldn't really define myself as "Conservative" any more, but like you said, the categories are arbitrary in the first place. Most liberals consider me conservative, most conservatives consider me liberal, and I claim neither. I am not a centrist either though, I tend to be one way or the other on most issues, in the middle on only a few.

I consider myself extremely liberal, however most of what you have said I agree with except for healthcare and social programs to help those in need. Other than that I am Pro 2nd Amendment, reluctantly support abortion rights.

I believe everyone has the right to choose to live by their own definitions conversation or liberal, however I think it's important to be clear on what that means.

I am a Democrat also, but that is a political party, I know plenty of Liberal and Conservative Democrats, I have met plenty of Liberal and Conservative Republicans.


Ideology doesn't belong to any one party, however on this issue, it really comes down to, whether you agree the Government should have the right to shut down protest. I don't.

HOWEVER if people want to counter protest as well to exercise their freedom, they too have a right.

The Law is the Law, if you loot, or riot you should be found, caught, arrested and realize the full weight of the law period. But unless or until we address the Murder of George Floyd and other innocent victims of police targeting and violence then rioting and looting stores is going to take a back seat.

People defending their neighborhoods, I have NO PROBLEM with.

But stores, buildings, they have insurance, they can be rebuilt, I don't want to lose one more life to this bullshit system, where some people are safe and others are treated like criminals and murdered.

[Weeps]

Protesters, as anyone should be.

Rioters/looters are not the protesters.

And Trump is a twat that does more harm than good.

I endorse this comment. Agree 100%.

[kail]

Protestors but not the rioters.

[Shadowferal]

Violence begets violence, right?
It's okay...I don't even know why I argue against what I've in the past argued in favor for.

[Elegiac]

Anyone who has complained about rioting in this thread is now banned from celebrating Pride, thanks. Please take your performative displays of virtue elsewhere.

Customs and Border Protection (CBP) acting chief Mark Morgan today commemorated the 1969 Stonewall Riots in an agencywide e-mail honoring LGBT Pride Month. The e-mail comes one day after he tweeted that the current “‘protests’”—which he put in scare quotes—“are anything but peaceful.”

“To the violent rioters, you are not representing justice—you are committing crimes like arson, assault, looting & destruction of property,” Morgan wrote later.

He sent out the e-mail commemorating the Stonewall riots just before noon. It states, “The designation of LGBT Pride month commemorates the 1969 Stonewall Riots in Manhattan protesting persecution of the LGBT community. The Stonewall Riots served as a catalyst, propelling the LGBT rights movement in the United States.”

[Shadowferal]

Celebrate "Pride?"
Not something I normally do anyway.

[Elegiac]

Celebrate "Pride?"
Not something I normally do anyway.

How boring that must be for you.

[Aurgjelme]

So glad the establishment and large companies are bleeding from all the looting and vandalism!

[Shadowferal]

How boring that must be for you.

Don't need to celebrate something I feel every day.

But if you want to make a day of it...feel free?

[Acidz]

Rioters, but also the protesters.

[Elegiac]

So glad the establishment and large companies are bleeding from all the looting and vandalism!

Man I can't believe the rioters looted so hard they went all the way back in time to 1992 when that video was taken.

Thanks for outing yourself as reading right wing tabloids, though.

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Don't need to celebrate something I feel every day.

But if you want to make a day of it...feel free?

It's June. Don't be daft.

[Aurgjelme]

Man I can't believe the rioters looted so hard they went all the way back in time to 1992 when that video was taken.

Thanks for outing yourself as reading right wing tabloids, though.

I mean...there is a fundraiser for this guy that is still ongoing...raised a million dollars even.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/scores-bar-mpls-riot-rebuild

And it on several different news sites; https://heavy.com/news/2020/05/kb-balla-scores/

I dont think even Donald Trump could spin a lie like you tried there to smear someone you disagree with, good job :P

It's nice to know you think African american business owners can go fuck themselves.

Imagine, spitting a guy with four kids that works as a fireman and invests everything into a private business.
But you dont care, do you comrade?

As for the source, I saw the story on facebook and found the shortest version I could on youtube. If you disagree with the channel that is fine, I have no idea who it is, but the message is about real people.

[Foindist]

I mean seriously, it isn't really very hard to stop the US Army. It is just hard to actually defeat them. Stopping them is pretty easy, they play by the rules, and everyone knows what those rules are.

Yeah burning kids to death with napalm suggests a really strong set of ethics Jeb. Just accept you lose because you aren't very good at war.

Just love the way you tried to hijack this thread with this shit.

[Underverse]

Side? I'm on nobody's side, because nobody's on my side.

But Trump has *once again* shown that he's a dangerously incompetent hypocrite with no leadership skills.

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Just so everyone knows, George Floyd was a meth head who was high on fentanyl at the time of his arrest. For those who don't know:

The most dangerous adverse effect of fentanyl is respiratory depression, or the decreased ability to breathe.

He also had cardiovascular disease and was a smoker, having been arrested in this particular case for buying cigarettes with counterfeit money. Would the officer's actions have led to George's death if the above were not the case? Probably not. Should the officer have not been an asshole and kneeled on George's neck, or at least stopped when he stated that he couldn't breathe? Definitely. Was it as blatantly immoral and racist as the media suggests? I don't think so.

[Elegiac]

Just so everyone knows, George Floyd was a meth head who was high on fentanyl at the time of his arrest. For those who don't know:

He also had cardiovascular disease and was a smoker, having been arrested in this particular case for buying cigarettes with counterfeit money. Would the officer's actions have led to George's death if the above were not the case? Probably not. Should the officer have not been an asshole and kneeled on George's neck, or at least stopped when he stated that he couldn't breathe? Definitely. Was it as blatantly immoral and racist as the media suggests? I don't think so.

I'm gonna throw some cold water on this trashfire of a racist dogwhistle.

Patrick Skinner spent a decade running counterterrorism operations overseas for the CIA. He worked in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Jordan; met with kings and presidents; rose through the ranks. But he came to believe he was part of the problem, that the very premise of the work was flawed. So he came home, and joined the police force in Savannah, Georgia, where he grew up.

I first learned about Skinner in a New Yorker profile. Then a friend mentioned his Twitter feed to me: There, Skinner reflects, in a thoughtful, continual stream, on the work of policing, the importance of treating your neighbors like neighbors, the daily work of deescalation, and the behavior of his menagerie of pets.

Skinner has been particularly outspoken in the aftermath of George Floyd’s death. “We have to change our profession,” he wrote. “We aren’t warriors. We aren’t at war with our neighbors.”

I spoke with Skinner by phone on Sunday. He emphasized that his views are his own, and he wasn’t speaking on behalf of his department or all police. But what he has to say is, I think, important. A transcript of our conversation, edited for length and clarity, follows:

Ezra Klein: "What did you see when you watched the video of George Floyd’s death?"

Skinner: "A murder. No semantics. No justification. They just killed that guy. I drove home and in a six-minute commute, I was in tears. And it was that I saw the other cops in the video. One of them even looked like me. They were stopping the bystanders, telling them to get back. It’s not just that this cop did this. The other cops stopped anyone from stopping him."

Klein: "What should they have done?"

Skinner: "They should have arrested the cop! Ideally, you’d just push the cop off. Tell him to knock it off. That would’ve ended it. When people have handcuffs on, they are legally in your custody. You have to care for them. What happens to them is your fault. If someone is kicking the windows out of the car, which I’ve had done, you need to take them out of the car. You need to do something. But this wasn’t that. And even if there had been, there was no justification. He just sat on his back. Floyd said he was dying, and he died.

If a police officer sees another police officer doing that, they are bound to stop him. I could see that cop, who was younger than me, he keeps looking back at what’s happening. The people in the community are yelling. They’re saying, “You’re killing him.” You can see this cop — I want to be charitable, he was torn, but he wasn’t torn enough to act. The crime had switched from counterfeit [Floyd was suspected of trying to pass a fake $20 bill] to an assault. And the assaulter was the cop. There is nothing to say to justify it. Nothing."

Add to that the independent coroner's findings that the cause of death was in fact asphyxiation, the MPD's known problems such as refusing to act on the prior complaints against the murdering officer, and you get a look on my face of such incredulity you might as well have told me you were dating George Glass.

[Shadowferal]

'That's not going to bring my brother back': George Floyd's brother calls for end to violence

"So let’s do this another way," Terrence Floyd said at the Minneapolis memorial to his brother. "Let’s stop thinking that our voice don’t matter and vote, because it’s a lot of us and we still going to do this peacefully.”"

[Underverse]

I'm gonna throw some cold water on this trashfire of a racist dogwhistle.



Add to that the independent coroner's findings that the cause of death was in fact asphyxiation, the MPD's known problems such as refusing to act on the prior complaints against the murdering officer, and you get a look on my face of such incredulity you might as well have told me you were dating George Glass.

Trashfire of a racist dogwhistle? And you submit an interview with a CIA agent as a counterargument? Is that a joke?

The coroner's report that YOU cite revealed fentanyl intoxication, methamphetamine use, and coronary artery disease. These are facts. His purchase of cigarettes is also a fact. Fentanyl leading to respiratory distress is also a fact - and that's when it's used at medical doses, nevermind to get high. Whether or not he was using counterfeit currency is an open question. Whether or not he resisted arrest is an open question. Whether he would have died had he not been high on fentanyl at the time is an open question.

Restraining a suspect by kneeling on their neck is furthermore legal in Minneapolis. One could argue that it shouldn't be (and I would agree with that) or that the officer did it incorrectly (maybe, I'm not an expert). But nothing I wrote was false or racist.