"Forced" or "Mandatory" covenants

[Doffen]

It's not forced or mandatory for the most of us. That's the truth really. It might suck for the top guilds, top arena teams, top mythic+ teams, top pet battle teams, but they have grinded stuff for several characters before in several expansions, its nothing new for them.

[SirBeef]

@Hitei literally explained that as long as you reached the appropriate item levels and knew their class they could beat even Heroic Raids. A full group of such players could do that. Lots of guild are almost like that. They take several months to fully clear the raid tier but they still can chose whatever customization they want, and they play among eachother, which is why it's not hurting anyone.

He's completely right. It's an issue with perception of efficiency. People are mixing Efficient with Effective.

We mostly do that with mythic raiding. We take 4-6 months and more often than not, not as much lately, clear the raid with players choosing what they want. We usually overgear encounters towards the end but we don't impose mandatory talents, classes, required runs of other content, or anything like that. But to each their own.

[Kralljin]

They have told us to unsub if we are unhappy or bored and wait for a new patch or expansion to come back for years now.

Out of curiousity i'd love to see the source on that.

Which is especially weird considering they've been offering a mount if you sub for 6 months before every major patch - which then usually expired just before the next major patch.
Kinda runs contradictory to the "it's okay to unsub" narrative.

Sure subs drive most of the revenue, and they do care but I'm certain the sub number is still far above the number it needs to hit before they "worry".

Due to being part of a public traded company, making the same revenue was last year isn't enough, you need to make more money than last year.

So no, from a Blizzard PoV, sub stagnation isn't good, they want more revenue, meaning they need to grow the sub count or milk more out of the current playerbase via MTX.

[SirBeef]

What?

I just listed reasons WHY this game ISN'T an RPG anymore. I am not making a case to make it less of an RPG. It already is less of an RPG.



Obviously they need to introduce more systems like the ones they've systematically removed.

You listed why you feel it should be considered one. A subjective list of qualifiers for you. WoW is still and RPG. Some aspects have been missing or diminished that would make WoW like say a tabletop D&D type RPG. But even in it's current state. It is very much an RPG.

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Out of curiousity i'd love to see the source on that.

Which is especially weird considering they've been offering a mount if you sub for 6 months before every major patch - which then usually expired just before the next major patch.
Kinda runs contradictory to the "it's okay to unsub" narrative.

Due to being part of a public traded company, making the same revenue was last year isn't enough, you need to make more money than last year.

So no, from a Blizzard PoV, sub stagnation isn't good, they want more revenue, meaning they need to grow the sub count or milk more out of the current playerbase via MTX.

So blues have said it in the past. It can be found, I don't have the time to look ATM.

As for the publicly traded company but, sure, if WoW was the only product in AB lineup. However the shareholders care about the company as a whole, ot one game specifically. Also, AB is about 91% institutional investors, meaning mutual funds and stuff and 9% voting shares. So those evil shareholders everyone uses as the scary boogeymen, have little say.

[Hitei]

I just want people to invest in their character appropriately, and not expect to be carried.

Would you really join a raid full of people who make the worst choices possible of their talents equipment etc?
And would you be happy when said group wiped and wiped because they can't meet the requirements of said bosses or raids?

i did an lfr yesterday for echoes, and 13 of the dps were doing below 10k dps on most bosses, despite being 425 gear or above, thats pre-uldir levels of dps that were achievable ingear 70 ilvls lower. yet these players didn't care about their performance because they knew they'd be carried catering to said audience is only detrimental to the game.

If they knew how to actually play their class and the boss mechanics. Sure. Because that is the problem 99% of the time. Not people picking a suboptimal talent. It is almost never shit like talents that causes wipes, it's people who just have no idea what they are doing. It's tanks that don't know how to deal with taunt mechanics, DPS that tunnel the boss instead of dealing with adds, idiots not stepping out of of range with AoE mechanics, etc.

I will take someone who knows how to play their class but picks suboptimal talents over someone who doesn't know how to play 100% of the time. Because that first person is probably going to do equal or better damage, and isn't going to get the raid killed doing something stupid. You're arguing about something else entirely. Being bad at the game and picking suboptimal talents are two completely different things. I frequently run sub optimal talents on my shadow priest, because I enjoy having, for example, Dark Ascension, so I can VF and burst AoE on demand. I also frequently out DPS similar geared spriests, because I know how to play with the talents I pick, how to time brust, maximize the CDs, etc.

That bad players exist is an issue unrelated to the freedom of picking options other than the highest output.

But neither of the two is very important if you're downing bosses anyway. I've never seen the point in getting angry over shit like LFR numbers. It was hilarious watching 9 of every 10 groups that did Durumu have 75%+ of the raid die during the maze because people were so bad at moving through it, but I never got angry about them being bad, because every time, the remaining 25% of players would just kill him anyway. The game isn't balanced such that completely optimization is necessary. 99.9% of the playerbase should be paying more attention to basic mechanics and how to properly use their class' tools than what talents sim the highest.

[Kralljin]

So blues have said it in the past. It can be found, I don't have the time to look ATM.

Neither do I, so that point is moot.

So those evil shareholders everyone uses as the scary boogeymen, have little say.

Those "evil" shareholders would most certainly listen up and act if Blizzard representatives tell customers "it's okay not to give us money".

At the end of the day, they own the company.

[qwerty123456]

I mean sure if you lack reading comprehension it might have seemed like that.

Not having the ability to switch covenants or each covenant having comparable soulbinds means that there is a disparity. there is zero difference to picking a sub-optimal covenant and doing anything else that is sub-optimal in your gear like wanting to use int items as a plate class because you want toleplay a paladin-warrior.

Show me what I missread.

Also classes can have a ridiculous amount of disparity between them. Should everyone be able to instant swap classes? No cause if someone really "needs" that extra dps from the flavor of the month they can put work in and level the op class. And just like classes if you really "need" to switch your covenant you can you just gotta work for it. And just like classes there are lore reasons why you can't just swap between covenants.

[Hitei]

Those "evil" shareholders would most certainly listen up and act if Blizzard representatives tell customers "it's okay not to give us money".

At the end of the day, they own the company.

They said it back in MoP? WoD? That people naturally come and go with patch cycles and expansion cycles and that they are perfectly happy with people subbing for patches, finishing what they want and then unsubbing when they are bored and waiting for the next batch of content.

Shareholders--like actual, meaningful ones, not Player Jim who owns a few hundred dollars worth of ATVI--do not care about metrics like "wow subs", they care about the actual movements of the stock, product release windows, the state of large scale areas of profit like how microtransactions are doing etc.

No actual holder cares about people whining over corruptions or monks when ATVI looks like this.

[DemonDays]

You listed why you feel it should be considered one. A subjective list of qualifiers for you. WoW is still and RPG. Some aspects have been missing or diminished that would make WoW like say a tabletop D&D type RPG. But even in it's current state. It is very much an RPG.

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So blues have said it in the past. It can be found, I don't have the time to look ATM.

As for the publicly traded company but, sure, if WoW was the only product in AB lineup. However the shareholders care about the company as a whole, ot one game specifically. Also, AB is about 91% institutional investors, meaning mutual funds and stuff and 9% voting shares. So those evil shareholders everyone uses as the scary boogeymen, have little say.

Typo? I listed why I feel it ISN'T one anymore.

Just like you can't make a statement that it is "very much an RPG". Reeeeeeeee subjective.

You see - I actually listed factual things that have been removed and have diminished the RPG aspects of this game. It's a VERY LONG list and it's all 100% true. I could give you more too.

You just reply with your "feelings". Gotta love it.


Also just answer the other guy truthfully. You don't have a source. That's the issue with you fanboys. You'll claim that everything "naysayers" say is a subjective opinion and no one has facts but when the shoe is on your foot everything you say is 100% the truth.

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You didn't show a single point that removes the RPG tag and the RPG status of WoW. Hell, the fact that you think you are forced to do some stuff is borderline comic.

Your little annoyances with the quality (or lack of) of WoW don't make it less of a RPG.

It is a RPG, or it isn't.

Basic conveniences like flying are gated behind asinine time-gated rep grinds.

New races advertised on the box? Better complete a 3-4 week time-gated rep grind.

DPS Increasing Essences ALA character progression? Gated behind a rep grind.


Now. I used to be able to CHOOSE where I got my rep from. What's the difference now? Oh that's right, rep only comes from WQs. It only comes from a SINGLE time-gated source.


Let's cut the bullshit okay?

[[Apok]]

Also classes can have a ridiculous amount of disparity between them. Should everyone be able to instant swap classes? No cause if someone really "needs" that extra dps from the flavor of the month they can put work in and level the op class. And just like classes if you really "need" to switch your covenant you can you just gotta work for it. And just like classes there are lore reasons why you can't just swap between covenants

there you go with hyperbole again.

Classes are not relatable to abilities and using such an example shows that you have no real cogent argument to rebutt other arguments, you keep falling back on "should we be able to just change classes".
The issue of different covenants offering different power of soulbinds will only grow as the expansion goes on.
A more succint and relatable comparison would be if essences or azerite gear weren't able to be changed without a massive grind.
Since covenants and their soulbinds are a flagship feature of shadowlands akin to azerite armour and effects.

[SirBeef]

Neither do I, so that point is moot.

Those "evil" shareholders would most certainly listen up and act if Blizzard representatives tell customers "it's okay not to give us money".

At the end of the day, they own the company.

Again, that is 9% of investors. And WoW is just one cog in a much larger machine that prints money. As long as AB is doing well, parts not doing as well doesn't matter.

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They said it back in MoP? WoD? That people naturally come and go with patch cycles and expansion cycles and that they are perfectly happy with people subbing for patches, finishing what they want and then unsubbing when they are bored and waiting for the next batch of content.

Shareholders--like actual, meaningful ones, not Player Jim who owns a few hundred dollars worth of ATVI--do not care about metrics like "wow subs", they care about the actual movements of the stock, product release windows, the state of large scale areas of profit like how microtransactions are doing etc.

No actual holder cares about people whining over corruptions or monks when ATVI looks like this.

Thank you. I can't find those quotes, but I know they exist. Also goes to show how much some people just don't know about how companies work.

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Typo? I listed why I feel it ISN'T one anymore.

Just like you can't make a statement that it is "very much an RPG". Reeeeeeeee subjective.

You see - I actually listed factual things that have been removed and have diminished the RPG aspects of this game. It's a VERY LONG list and it's all 100% true. I could give you more too.

You just reply with your "feelings". Gotta love it.


Also just answer the other guy truthfully. You don't have a source. That's the issue with you fanboys. You'll claim that everything "naysayers" say is a subjective opinion and no one has facts but when the shoe is on your foot everything you say is 100% the truth.

All a role playing game is assuming a role of a character. There is no definition of what the systems have to be. Sure, people have placed high priority on things like stats, abilities, traits, races, classes, quests, choice, rewards, and so on. But those are all preferences. Is Skyrim an RPG? It is a dumbed down version of Oblivion which is a dumbed down version of Morrowind. There are many who think Skyrim is no longer an RPG. WoW was a very dumbed down version of EQ at launch. Many though WoW was not an RPG back then.

Just becasue one feels it no longer is one doesn't make it so. You can not like the direction, but it doesn't remove it from being an RPG.

[A Chozo]

Basic conveniences like flying are gated behind asinine time-gated rep grinds.

New races advertised on the box? Better complete a 3-4 week time-gated rep grind.

DPS Increasing Essences ALA character progression? Gated behind a rep grind.


Now. I used to be able to CHOOSE where I got my rep from. What's the difference now? Oh that's right, rep only comes from WQs. It only comes from a SINGLE time-gated source.


Let's cut the bullshit okay?

Many RPGs don't even have flight.

Nor do they have new races.

And almost all of 'em have power upgrades gated behind a form of grind.

And yet you, ignorant of the meaning of Role-Playing Game, thinks that WoW isn't a RPG.

[[Apok]]

Many RPGs don't even have flight.

Nor do they have new races.

And almost all of 'em have power upgrades gated behind a form of grind.

And yet you, ignorant of the meaning of Role-Playing Game, thinks that WoW isn't a RPG.

You don't share my point of view so that makes you ignorant.

Wow great argumentation.

[LorDC]

I feel like I have to barge into this thread again and remind everyone that whether WoW is on RPG is moot point in context of this discussion.
Why? Because RPG is TLA. Any kind of argument along the lines of "WoW is an RPG therefore X" is completely pointless and does not have any substance in it.

[A Chozo]

You don't share my point of view so that makes you ignorant.

Wow great argumentation.

It's not about points of view or opinions. You can't simply "disagree" with basic categorizations, especially when the arguments to put something under a category still hold true.

The Sun is a star.
WoW is a RPG.

People can't simply disagree with categories like that, otherwise we disintegrate the fundamentals of this discussion, which is horribly ignorant.

As long as the meaning of the word RPG remains Role-Playing Game, WoW remains a RPG.

[klogaroth]

It's not about points of view or opinions. You can't simply "disagree" with basic categorizations, especially when the arguments to put something under a category still hold true.

The Sun is a star.
WoW is a RPG.

People can't simply disagree with categories like that, otherwise we disintegrate the fundamentals of this discussion, which is horribly ignorant.

As long as the meaning of the word RPG remains Role-Playing Game, WoW remains a RPG.

Games with RPG elements is a set so broad as to include both tabletop D&D and Call of Duty. It tells you very little about how to design your game. Merely some elements that you have used in it.

[kingj56]

If you arent raiding or pvp on a top 20% level and above it doesnt matter do wats fun. You will still be able to clear 15+ you can still do mythic raiding. How many people comment here even belong to top 5 guilds on their server? Its complaing about something they will never partake in anyway. If you clear mythic raid wihting first month of it being out then you have a "mandatory" covenant to choose. If you clear mythic 2 months after its gone and beyond...stfu and play the game you dont matter at all in this convo and probably never will. Just play the game, and have fun. Likewise for pvp, make it to the top 30% of players minimum and you will have a valid point.

[A Chozo]

Games with RPG elements is a set so broad as to include both tabletop D&D and Call of Duty. It tells you very little about how to design your game. Merely some elements that you have used in it.

It being a broad category is irrelevant. WoW is still in it by default. I think even regular Pokemon is a RPG.

Just because Billy-bob dislikes timegates it doesn't stop WoW from being a RPG.

[Krakan]

It's not about points of view or opinions. You can't simply "disagree" with basic categorizations, especially when the arguments to put something under a category still hold true.

The Sun is a star.
WoW is a RPG.

People can't simply disagree with categories like that, otherwise we disintegrate the fundamentals of this discussion, which is horribly ignorant.

As long as the meaning of the word RPG remains Role-Playing Game, WoW remains a RPG.

I actually don't know if wow fits your weird definition of a rpg game over a action game.

There isn't a single story decision you can make in wow that leads to a different narrative outcome. It's all on rails with choices being superficial to the plot.

Even covenants at most you might change a dozen quests but the story is going to end the same way.

It's why game play is king.

[A Chozo]

There isn't a single story decision you can make in wow that leads to a different narrative outcome. It's all on rails with choices being superficial to the plot.

Even covenants at most you might change a dozen quests but the story is going to end the same way.

Different narrative outcomes aren't a prerequisite of classifying something as a RPG.

And even yet, you had a different campaign depending on your class in Legion, and a very different story depending on your faction or even race depending on which character you chose to interpret. Doesn't change the end result, but the campaign is different.