"Forced" or "Mandatory" covenants

[Specialka]

Yes, nobody lets me join groups to anything if I don't pick the mastery corruption.

/s

Or they don't care and I can raid mythic with whatever the hell I want as long as I handle the mechanics and put out decent numbers.

You mean you do not mind getting carried into mm raid ?

[Krakan]

Trying to see how I create a toxic environment. I don't tell people they cannot theory craft, nor to I petition Blizzard to make the game the way I like it. I consume the game as it is made, for better or worse. I just state my opinions. Which is balance is not always good for the game in general. Uniqueness is good. Meaningful choice is good. Restrictions can be good and so on. I may be passionate about how I feel about things here, but do not conflate that with I am telling anyone how to play.

Do I think Dwarven Priests being the sole casters of fear ward was a good thing. For uniqueness yes, for overall health no. Did I try and stop Blizzard from making the change so all Priests can have it? Nope. Same for Paladins on both factions and any of the other balance or accessibility changes.

I have always been one that can see both sides of the coin but of course I have preferences. Sometimes they favor balance and accessibility, other times they favor the uniqueness aspect. I mean SMB2 would have been a boring game if all 4 characters were the same just with different skins. Sometimes you need that imbalance or uniqueness to make things interesting.

But the math guys can do what they want. I wont stop them. I used to be one. I just found it took away my enjoyment of the game as I was too busy always looking at the numbers rather than playing a game for run. I understand that is fun for some and I'm not stopping anyone from doing it. I don't need it. If they find something egregious and Blizzard fixes it and it effects my class. So be it. I'm not going to sit here and bitch about it. I just go with the flow. After all, it's just a game.

It's just a game where you work tirelessly to push for options to be taken away from others...

No one here honestly thinks any of the new alternative progression systems are going to be balanced in anyway shape or form. Anyone who has paid any attention at all to the past 15 years already knows how this is going to play out...

There is going to be a raiding covenant for each spec. A pvp spec. A mythic + that might overlap with the raiding tree but odds are won't. Add to that blizzards bad habit of panic balancing means people are going to be tossed into mindlessly grind junk content to respec.

I grow so weary of people wanting to be special snowflakes in a mmo to the point of actively working against good game design to accomplish it. All of this isn't even touching on how you balance high end content when you can never be sure just what a player is capable of. Given blizzards usual mo they are going to balance it around the maximized dps builds further screwing people who pick wrong or dare try to enjoy multiple forms of content on the same toon.

So yeah... your hatred of " min maxing" creates the worst version of the game.

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Yes, nobody lets me join groups to anything if I don't pick the mastery corruption.

/s

Or they don't care and I can raid mythic with whatever the hell I want as long as I handle the mechanics and put out decent numbers.

Making yourself weaker isn't something people are going to tolerate in guilds pushing the hardest content. Birds of a feather fly together. Your a crow trying to soar with eagles.

[A Chozo]

If these forums are any indication of what's to come (I have my doubts that some people in here still actually play) the majority will pick whatever they want and then down the line either defend their choice to their very last breath even if it is "objectively wrong" or spend the rest of the expac complaining that they chose wrong and that their friend that picked a different covenant deals "double" their dmg or doesn't have to jump thru as many hoops to reach a certain level of gameplay.

If by the time I reach 60 there isn't some spreadsheet that tells me "pick this for Frost DK", I will probably either pick vampires or woodland creatures.

I agree with this, and keeping in mind that the users of this forum are consistently elitist, it means that even more players will just pick up whatever they want.

Can't wait for the threads with people saying that the dps is bad, linking the logs and the other users pointing out all the mistakes that aren't covenant-related.

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I grow so weary of people wanting to be special snowflakes in a mmo

A big point in World of Warcraft is the quest to become a Special Snowflake.

Since Classic.

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You mean you do not mind getting carried into mm raid ?

He's only being carried if he's not doing the minimum to beat the content.

[Echocho]

You mean you do not mind getting carried into mm raid ?

Making yourself weaker isn't something people are going to tolerate in guilds pushing the hardest content. Birds of a feather fly together. Your a crow trying to soar with eagles.

Everyone in my mythic team plays like that, it's completely fine and often enough people perform better playing something they like and are comfortable with than whatever some spreadsheet says.

[klogaroth]

He's only being carried if he's not doing the minimum to beat the content.

The minimum on a personal level depends on the rest of your group. If the rest of the group is happy for you to die on pull and the boss still dies the you've done the minimum. Usually this is called getting carried, and sometimes people pay lots of gold for it to be acceptable for them to die on pull.

There are lots of times, especially when first killing a boss, where it's not possible to do that and still kill the boss. In these times the group usually expects that people will contribute a vaguely even amount across the whole group. If one person is contributing significantly less it can cause social friction. Even in LFR you see things like "kick low DPS" as a proposed solution after a wipe. Whether or not that low DPS will actually prevent them from killing the boss, they don't want people in there contributing significantly less than others, even though it's not hardcore spreadsheets and sims content.

What matters is the expectation of the group, because WoW is a social game.

[A Chozo]

The minimum on a personal level depends on the rest of your group.

Completely wrong. The minimum on a personal level is determined by the content, otherwise my minimum would rise when Bob fails to reach his minimum - that would mean he's being carried.

[klogaroth]

Completely wrong. The minimum on a personal level is determined by the content, otherwise my minimum would rise when Bob fails to reach his minimum - that would mean he's being carried.

If we ignore tanks and healer DPS for simplicity, say the boss needs 14,000 raid DPS to defeat, across 14 DPS, each player needs to do 1,000 DPS. If Bob dies on pull, he contributes 0 DPS. Now 14,000 DPS is required across 13 DPS. Each of those 13 DPS now needs to do 1,077 DPS.

Because Bob died, your minimum increased.

This is an averaged out example. The only number that actually matters is that 14,000. It can be achieved any way you want. Maybe you have half the raid contributing 40% of that, and the other half contributing 60% of it. Maybe there's someone who comes in with gear miles beyond the content and does 10,000 DPS on their own.

Personal minimums to beat the content always depends on the other players in your raid. Because you depend on other people to reach that number, or even go beyond it, the expectations of other players are of utmost importance. At least up to the point where you can solo the boss anyway.

It's why there are groups that massively overgear content that look for people that also overgear it. They aren't looking to just hit the bare minimum. They're looking to smash through the content, and want other people who are looking to do the same thing join them. Like say a group looking to just do N'zoth, solely for the purpose of getting their weekly core. They don't want to progress, they don't want to go slow, they just want that core in a short amount of time.

[A Chozo]

If we ignore tanks and healer DPS for simplicity, say the boss needs 14,000 raid DPS to defeat, across 14 DPS, each player needs to do 1,000 DPS. If Bob dies on pull, he contributes 0 DPS. Now 14,000 DPS is required across 13 DPS. Each of those 13 DPS now needs to do 1,077 DPS.

Because Bob died, your minimum increased.

The minimum I need to do to kill the boss didn't increase. Simply put, Bob isn't doing his minimum, and as such, we won't kill the boss. Way to go, Bob you fire-eater.

But this is only assuming that a group's minimum is calculated without considering that someone may die, which would be idiotic or suited for high-end competitive content.

In the end, the person we are analyzing isn't being carried.

[klogaroth]

The minimum I need to do to kill the boss didn't increase. Simply put, Bob isn't doing his minimum, and as such, we won't kill the boss. Way to go, Bob you fire-eater.

But this is only assuming that a group's minimum is calculated without considering that someone may die, which would be idiotic or suited for high-end competitive content.

In the end, the person we are analyzing isn't being carried.

That's not how raiding works at all. Where did you get the idea that everyone always does exactly the same DPS on every boss across the entire raid?

The total raid DPS is what matters, the makeup of that raid DPS is up to the group. If you have 13 DPS that can do 1,077, Bob can do whatever the fuck he wants. If everyone really likes Bob, and each of them can do at least 1,077 DPS then the boss will die and everyone is happy.

[SirBeef]

It's just a game where you work tirelessly to push for options to be taken away from others...

No one here honestly thinks any of the new alternative progression systems are going to be balanced in anyway shape or form. Anyone who has paid any attention at all to the past 15 years already knows how this is going to play out...

There is going to be a raiding covenant for each spec. A pvp spec. A mythic + that might overlap with the raiding tree but odds are won't. Add to that blizzards bad habit of panic balancing means people are going to be tossed into mindlessly grind junk content to respec.

I grow so weary of people wanting to be special snowflakes in a mmo to the point of actively working against good game design to accomplish it. All of this isn't even touching on how you balance high end content when you can never be sure just what a player is capable of. Given blizzards usual mo they are going to balance it around the maximized dps builds further screwing people who pick wrong or dare try to enjoy multiple forms of content on the same toon.

So yeah... your hatred of " min maxing" creates the worst version of the game.

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Making yourself weaker isn't something people are going to tolerate in guilds pushing the hardest content. Birds of a feather fly together. Your a crow trying to soar with eagles.

Where have I worked tirelessly to take things away from others? Just because I prefer covenants being a psuedo permanent choice in a fan forum? I don't petition for my preferences through official channels. I don't report how I feel changes should be made in testing(I just report bugs I find). Sharing how I feel about things and sharing how Infeel most of you guys overreact is not actively trying to take things away.

Just because i think it takes away the fun for me doesn't mean I hate it or thise that do. But you keep thinking having a discussion on a fan forum somehow has a direct effect in development changes, as if we have some direct line to Blizzard to force change. Hell, I never said boo about the removal of PL from dungeons before it was brought right back by people complaining. I roll with whatever I'm given. Because this is just a game. No skin off my back if covenants are easily swappable. I just prefer it not to be because it add weight to you decision. Which is important in RPGs IMO.

[A Chozo]

That's not how raiding works at all. Where did you get the idea that everyone always does exactly the same DPS on every boss across the entire raid?

Not DPS. Damage. There's a difference (irrelevant for this discussion). Boss needs to be damaged, he has a fixed number of health numbers, which means that if everyone is dealing their share of damage, the boss dies.

Just because Jessica deals double the damage of Bob it doesn't mean he's being carried in their little Mythic Raiding Group. It's just that Jessica is hella good. But Bob isn't bad either nor is he being carried - the boss died very quickly and easily.

[OFiveNine]

You're being carried if you aren't doing the maximum you can do in a raid btw not minimum

[Specialka]

I agree with this, and keeping in mind that the users of this forum are consistently elitist, it means that even more players will just pick up whatever they want.

Can't wait for the threads with people saying that the dps is bad, linking the logs and the other users pointing out all the mistakes that aren't covenant-related.

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A big point in World of Warcraft is the quest to become a Special Snowflake.

Since Classic.

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He's only being carried if he's not doing the minimum to beat the content.

Well, if his raid is wiping, he is a part of the problem and on progression, you can't affort ppl like that.

[klogaroth]

Not DPS. Damage. There's a difference (irrelevant for this discussion). Boss needs to be damaged, he has a fixed number of health numbers, which means that if everyone is dealing their share of damage, the boss dies.

Just because Jessica deals double the damage of Bob it doesn't mean he's being carried in their little Mythic Raiding Group. It's just that Jessica is hella good. But Bob isn't bad either nor is he being carried - the boss died very quickly and easily.

Your examples literally are numbers that are produced when people pay to be carried. If people are ok with that, that is fine. If one person is contributing significantly less than the rest of the raid, they are being carried. Maybe because they bought it, maybe because they're a friend, maybe because the group just doesn't care that much and they just raid to hang out.

It is ok for people to be carried, but that is what is happening there. The raid is killing the boss because Jessica is there to pick up the slack of Bob. Jessica is carrying Bob.

Even in mythic raids on first kills in very good guilds there are occasions where someone will go "wow, x is carrying DPS" because they are doing so much.

[Krakan]

Not DPS. Damage. There's a difference (irrelevant for this discussion). Boss needs to be damaged, he has a fixed number of health numbers, which means that if everyone is dealing their share of damage, the boss dies.

Just because Jessica deals double the damage of Bob it doesn't mean he's being carried in their little Mythic Raiding Group. It's just that Jessica is hella good. But Bob isn't bad either nor is he being carried - the boss died very quickly and easily.

I mean if they are different classes assigned to different roles....sure there are times the aoe strong classes can do that otherwise no... that isn't how this works.

[Specialka]

Not DPS. Damage. There's a difference (irrelevant for this discussion). Boss needs to be damaged, he has a fixed number of health numbers, which means that if everyone is dealing their share of damage, the boss dies.

Just because Jessica deals double the damage of Bob it doesn't mean he's being carried in their little Mythic Raiding Group. It's just that Jessica is hella good. But Bob isn't bad either nor is he being carried - the boss died very quickly and easily.

From what you are saying, I would not want you in my raid.

[Fatbeaverlol]

In Chrono Trigger (just one example) you had the critical choice of restoring Frog or taking Magus as a teammate (if I'm recalling right).
In Dark Souls you can only get certain upgrades if you follow the storyline correctly.

Yes, Dark Souls are RPG games and it mixes PvE and PvP together.

WoW literally mixed story with gameplay through the class halls, because you only experimented your class' campaign. People are talking about out of combat things here: the plot.

Demon souls is even a better example with the world tenacy system or whatever it was called.

[Krakan]

Where have I worked tirelessly to take things away from others? Just because I prefer covenants being a psuedo permanent choice in a fan forum? I don't petition for my preferences through official channels. I don't report how I feel changes should be made in testing(I just report bugs I find). Sharing how I feel about things and sharing how Infeel most of you guys overreact is not actively trying to take things away.

Just because i think it takes away the fun for me doesn't mean I hate it or thise that do. But you keep thinking having a discussion on a fan forum somehow has a direct effect in development changes, as if we have some direct line to Blizzard to force change. Hell, I never said boo about the removal of PL from dungeons before it was brought right back by people complaining. I roll with whatever I'm given. Because this is just a game. No skin off my back if covenants are easily swappable. I just prefer it not to be because it add weight to you decision. Which is important in RPGs IMO.

I'm pointing out how you create a poisonous well of misinformation and push for terrible changes that lock people out of content they have enjoyed for 15 years because you find the game drastically changing as " fun for me"

Now your trying to justify your terrible attitude with the " what does it matter argument "

At some point you can just stop you know.

[klogaroth]

What seems to be clear is that there is a market for a single player RPG in the Warcraft universe.

That game cannot be WoW, because WoW is an MMO. There are things you can do in single player RPGs that you just can't in an MMO. Your character can have a real impact on the world. Not just the odd bit of phasing here and there. You can choose things to happen. Permanently, throughout the entire world of your playthrough. Big things. Not like in an MMO where everything you kill pops back up somewhere between a few minutes to a week later.

An MMO will always be a half-arsed version of a single player game if it tries to be a single player game. If people want a single player game, ask for a single player game, because it will be better than trying to shoehorn it into a different genre.

[Recovery]

Not DPS. Damage. There's a difference (irrelevant for this discussion). Boss needs to be damaged, he has a fixed number of health numbers, which means that if everyone is dealing their share of damage, the boss dies.

Just because Jessica deals double the damage of Bob it doesn't mean he's being carried in their little Mythic Raiding Group. It's just that Jessica is hella good. But Bob isn't bad either nor is he being carried - the boss died very quickly and easily.

In my opinion, using current dps numbers, being hella good is doing 30-50k more dps than someone, not DOUBLING. If people are DOUBLING others' damage in raid, then the person getting doubled is being carried... meaning they're not pulling their own weight. Even if you're playing a class that notoriously has lower numbers than another class, and the player is performing *perfectly*, they're still being carried because someone else could come in on another class and contribute more / carry their share of the load. No one ever said that being carried was explicitly indicative of skill.

Take 2 master blacksmiths in real life for example. Both are the best of the best and produce the best work. However, they have a production deadline. There needs to be 10 blades made in 5 days. In that 5 day timeline, both smiths created flawless products, however, one created 7 and one created 3. The one that created 3 was effectively carried.