"Forced" or "Mandatory" covenants

[Soluna]

But corruptions don't alter your gameplay, literally there is zero change in gameplay.
Maybe except TD where you try to face enemies a bit better. But others? No change, zero, null, void.

Lol, you speak to me about what it takes to raid in top 100-200, and you have no clue of corruptions that alter your gameplay. Check what the crit corruption does for frost dk, check what haste does for destro (allows really rewarding eradication/internal combustion gameplay that usually destros avoid cause it's not worth the effort without such high haste levels', etc. High secondary stats give you a difference in gameplay. Oh my god, I need to put you in the list of the most antagonistic, clueless, mmo champion posters I've ever seen. Please don't change your profile picture so that I know that when I see a post from you, I should never deal with it again.

Also if you know more than me about top 100 raiding, feel free to PM me with your experience and I will respond accordingly, till then, I will treat you as a kid who talks about a raiding world he doesn't know.

[kaminaris]

Lol, you speak to me about what it takes to raid in top 100-200, and you have no clue of corruptions that alter your gameplay. Check what the crit corruption does for frost dk, check what haste does for destro (allows really rewarding eradication/internal combustion gameplay that usually destros avoid cause it's not worth the effort without such high haste levels', etc. High secondary stats give you a difference in gameplay. Oh my god, I need to put you in the list of the most antagonistic, clueless, mmo champion posters I've ever seen. Please don't change your profile picture so that I know that when I see a post from you, I should never deal with it again.

Also if you know more than me about top 100 raiding, feel free to PM me with your experience and I will respond accordingly, till then, I will treat you as a kid who talks about a raiding world he doesn't know.

That is one of the dumbest arguments I have read recently. You do realize that stat corruptions are literally a gear with high amount of X stat?

I could substitute all my crit corruptions with PLAIN gear that has 300-500 crit as a stat. Result will be exactly the same.

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They can in some cases though I admit it is in minor ways like mastery mages.

Still... the concept of the vast majority of your power coming from rng isn't appealing.

Again, this is the same as getting items with 600-700 ilvl. It doesn't alter your gameplay. You still follow exact same priority list except its faster or procs more often.

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There's some, but to say it's not borrowed power is not correct. It is quite literally the definition of a system of borrowed power. Just like Essences, Azerite Armor, Heart of Azeroth, Legion artifact weapons. Having the power of a character tied to limited-time grinds is not a fun concept. Pre-Legion gearing etc was far far far superior

Nah, it's the same as gear getting shit next expansion. Neck is borrowed power due to azerite gear being tied to it and essences (and azerite gear does alter your gameplay).

Corruptions are not. Corruptions are literally gear with super high item level (all stat increasing ones) OR trinkets strapped to gear IS/TD/Flys.
There is literally nothing different than upgrading ilvl of gear by 200-300 using some currency (now that we got vendor) with drawbacks.

And pre legion gearing system sucked. Was most boring braindead gear system ever.

[Soluna]

That is one of the dumbest arguments I have read recently. You do realize that stat corruptions are literally a gear with high amount of X stat?

I could substitute all my crit corruptions with PLAIN gear that has 300-500 crit as a stat. Result will be exactly the same.

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Again, this is the same as getting items with 600-700 ilvl. It doesn't alter your gameplay. You still follow exact same priority list except its faster or procs more often.

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Nah, it's the same as gear getting shit next expansion. Neck is borrowed power due to azerite gear being tied to it and essences (and azerite gear does alter your gameplay).

Corruptions are not. Corruptions are literally gear with super high item level (all stat increasing ones) OR trinkets strapped to gear IS/TD/Flys.
There is literally nothing different than upgrading ilvl of gear by 200-300 using some currency (now that we got vendor) with drawbacks.

And pre legion gearing system sucked. Was most boring braindead gear system ever.

I will not bother erasing the rest of your antagonistic replies to others, I will just reply to your comment for me. Having much higher ilvl gear with more secondary stats can produce the same result as having stacking corruptions, you are right. Do you know what that result is? In cases like destruction warlock, you pick entirely different talents, which require you to play differently (keep eradication buff going, apply immolate a lot more often), compared to flashover that just requires you to use the stacks gained for faster chaos bolts, or reverse entropy... that is yet again a speedy proc that allows you to cast a bit faster for a small duration.

Could these talents be picked without these corruptions/stats? Yes, would they be worth the hassle of dealing with them with much lower haste, for a tiny pay off? No. Do they feel a lot more satisfying with super high amounts of haste, and contribute a much larger part of your dps? Damn right they do. This means that secondary corruptions can be gameplay alternating. The only dumb argument is the one you make, because without realising, you actually agree with me that corruptions, just like a massive inflation of secondary stats from a theoritical much higher ilvl, would provide gameplay alternating properties. The only difference here is that corruptions are a thing, while gear 200 ilvls higher than its own tier isn't.

[Th3Scourge]

Nah, it's the same as gear getting shit next expansion. Neck is borrowed power due to azerite gear being tied to it and essences (and azerite gear does alter your gameplay).

Corruptions are not. Corruptions are literally gear with super high item level (all stat increasing ones) OR trinkets strapped to gear IS/TD/Flys.
There is literally nothing different than upgrading ilvl of gear by 200-300 using some currency (now that we got vendor) with drawbacks.

And pre legion gearing system sucked. Was most boring braindead gear system ever.

Wrong, super high item level items didn't impose stacking negative effects on the player - the corruption mechanics and system.

You're getting caught up in the stat that appears on items - Corruption, rather than the system of corruption itself. The system, of which, is borrowed power, and is not continuing beyond patch 8.3

good night

[kaminaris]

I will not bother erasing the rest of your antagonistic replies to others, I will just reply to your comment for me. Having much higher ilvl gear with more secondary stats can produce the same result as having stacking corruptions, you are right. Do you know what that result is? In cases like destruction warlock, you pick entirely different talents, which require you to play differently (keep eradication buff going, apply immolate a lot more often), compared to flashover that just requires you to use the stacks gained for faster chaos bolts, or reverse entropy... that is yet again a speedy proc that allows you to cast a bit faster for a small duration.

Could these talents be picked without these corruptions/stats? Yes, would they be worth the hassle of dealing with them with much lower haste, for a tiny pay off? No. Do they feel a lot more satisfying with super high amounts of haste, and contribute a much larger part of your dps? Damn right they do. This means that secondary corruptions can be gameplay alternating. The only dumb argument is the one you make, because without realising, you actually agree with me that corruptions, just like a massive inflation of secondary stats from a theoritical much higher ilvl, would provide gameplay alternating properties. The only difference here is that corruptions are a thing, while gear 200 ilvls higher than its own tier isn't.

Dude, it doesn't matter if you pick different talents on different levels of some stat, it did happen before in previous expansions. Where you literally picked different talents with different caps.

What actually matters is - Can the same situation be reproduced with pure gear? Yes it can.
It doesn't matter that this gear doesn't exist.

Could you replicate entire legion weapon with pure gear? NOPE, no gear gave you so much at once and actually change your priority list.
Can you replicate Azerite gear with normal gear? NOPE, you won't use implosion on single target without that azerite trait.
Can you replicate tier sets with normal gear? 80-90% of specs you can, the other, you cant (depending on tier).

And corruptions does not alter your priority list.

Power level is absolutely irrelevant.
Because you can get to the same point of power with just plain gear.

The only hard condition on borrowed power that has to be met in order to call something a borrowed power is actually making changes to your priority list that otherwise cannot be replicated with pure stats. So stuff like:
Using a spell that hasn't been used before
Adding a spell that directly interferes with your class.
Not using a spell that you would normally use.
Making you do a shit you otherwise wouldn't do.


How much power it gives is questionable because you could call tier sets borrowed power if you set a bar to 15%.
How much it changes your talent choice is irrelevant because it happened before in previous expansions so you would have to call gear itself a borrowed power.
Cooldown reductions also happened before like assurance of consequence, still nobody called it "borrowed power".

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Wrong, super high item level items didn't impose stacking negative effects on the player - the corruption mechanics and system.

You're getting caught up in the stat that appears on items - Corruption, rather than the system of corruption itself. The system, of which, is borrowed power, and is not continuing beyond patch 8.3

good night

Wrong. You can avoid completely all negative effects once you reach to certain level of resistance.
Corruptions are not a borrowed power. If corruption is a borrowed power than all gear ever created is also a borrowed power.

And of course it is going to continue beyond 8.3 because your character will be more powerful than it is now.
What is not going to continue is the drawbacks.

[ro9ue]

Most people complaining about a potential minor performance discrepancy between covenants probably have much larger gaps of dps they could make up by being not shit in an encounter - standing in fire, better button presses, etc.

[LorDC]

Most people complaining about a potential minor performance discrepancy between covenants probably have much larger gaps of dps they could make up by being not shit in an encounter - standing in fire, better button presses, etc.

Yet, no amount of skill will cover the gap caused by covenants imbalance. And, as Legion and BfA showed, those discrepancies will be anything but minor.

[Specialka]

Most people complaining about a potential minor performance discrepancy between covenants probably have much larger gaps of dps they could make up by being not shit in an encounter - standing in fire, better button presses, etc.

Maybe, maybe not, but does that change the issue of the covenants ? I think not.

[Doffen]

Wrong, item enchants don't significantly alter your gameplay to the degree the corruption system does. And no DK runeforging doesn't count, the class is balances around those 'enchants'

Corruption is a borrowed power system. The fact that is going away with the pre-patch is further evidence of it's borrowed power status.

Fun story. When I dinged my second DK here few months ago, I made myself some weapon enchant for it. Took me a week to remember the runeforges LOL!

[klogaroth]

Most people complaining about a potential minor performance discrepancy between covenants probably have much larger gaps of dps they could make up by being not shit in an encounter - standing in fire, better button presses, etc.

This is completely irrelevant.

If a player pushes some buttons and a spell that hits for 100 they do some damage.

If the same player pushes some buttons and a spell that hits for 110 they do more damage.

Whether that player is the worst or the best, if you stick better abilties on the same player, their numbers will go up. They'll go up more for the optimal player, but they'll go up for all.

Some of the covenant powers genuinely are like this. In certain situations, they just do more damage. And always will, unless they all become the same spell. At least one of them goes as far as to do 0 damage even for the best players in some situations. But is really useful in others. Then there's also the utility gap between some of them, which is harder to stick a number on, but is perhaps an even bigger concern.

Same is true with gear and all the other things people claim don't matter unless you're playing an encounter perfectly.

Averaging out across all content isn't good enough in an MMO like WoW, where there's no guarantee that a player even plays the content where their favourite covenant (based on the lore, characters, aesthetic etc) is any good.

[Krakan]

Dude, it doesn't matter if you pick different talents on different levels of some stat, it did happen before in previous expansions. Where you literally picked different talents with different caps.

What actually matters is - Can the same situation be reproduced with pure gear? Yes it can.
It doesn't matter that this gear doesn't exist.

Could you replicate entire legion weapon with pure gear? NOPE, no gear gave you so much at once and actually change your priority list.
Can you replicate Azerite gear with normal gear? NOPE, you won't use implosion on single target without that azerite trait.
Can you replicate tier sets with normal gear? 80-90% of specs you can, the other, you cant (depending on tier).

And corruptions does not alter your priority list.

Power level is absolutely irrelevant.
Because you can get to the same point of power with just plain gear.

The only hard condition on borrowed power that has to be met in order to call something a borrowed power is actually making changes to your priority list that otherwise cannot be replicated with pure stats. So stuff like:
Using a spell that hasn't been used before
Adding a spell that directly interferes with your class.
Not using a spell that you would normally use.
Making you do a shit you otherwise wouldn't do.


How much power it gives is questionable because you could call tier sets borrowed power if you set a bar to 15%.
How much it changes your talent choice is irrelevant because it happened before in previous expansions so you would have to call gear itself a borrowed power.
Cooldown reductions also happened before like assurance of consequence, still nobody called it "borrowed power".

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Wrong. You can avoid completely all negative effects once you reach to certain level of resistance.
Corruptions are not a borrowed power. If corruption is a borrowed power than all gear ever created is also a borrowed power.

And of course it is going to continue beyond 8.3 because your character will be more powerful than it is now.
What is not going to continue is the drawbacks.

I think you are confusing class pruning with stat caps... while I'm honestly not sure any class changes their rotation in bfa from stats ( I feel like rogues do but could be wrong) that is more to do with how useless most talents are for each class.

Yes leggos in legion were better then corruptions. Still awful but at least better...

[kaminaris]

I think you are confusing class pruning with stat caps... while I'm honestly not sure any class changes their rotation in bfa from stats ( I feel like rogues do but could be wrong) that is more to do with how useless most talents are for each class.

Yes leggos in legion were better then corruptions. Still awful but at least better...

Nope, there were simply some thresholds in the past that "enabled" you to pick a different talent. At X% haste talent Z became best/viable.
Because you know, talents also can scale with stats.

It's nothing new. Softcap/thresholds call it whatever you like.

Legiondaries would be fine if you could acquire them in targeted way. But compare to corruption vendor? Nope they were far worse.

[docterfreeze]

I am looking forward to the personalized builds PvPers create. Meanwhile in dragonslayer land they are still slaves to the numbers, must suck.

[Kralljin]

I am looking forward to the personalized builds PvPers create. Meanwhile in dragonslayer land they are still slaves to the numbers, must suck.

Good thing certain covenant class abilities vary in PvP from dead button to straight nuts.

Like, the fact that no one on the dev side even talks about PvP is a good hint that this system won't be designed around PvP.

[docterfreeze]

Good thing certain covenant class abilities vary in PvP from dead button to straight nuts.

Like, the fact that no one on the dev side even talks about PvP is a good hint that this system won't be designed around PvP.

True, pallies for example don't have a single covenant that gives a good pvp ability. Soulbinds kinda fix that though. I see a lot of pvpers just going for the CC immune fleshcraft, but that 50% max health heal over time on a 1 minute CD from pelagos doe...

My only problem is that there aren't enough options. I want to see more soulbinds and more abilities for each covenant.