"Forced" or "Mandatory" covenants

[korijenkins]

For casual players it indeed doesn't matter, but if the imbalance between the covenants is noticeable (And so far in alpha, it seems to be quite noticeable, usual disclaimers apply of course), i have no doubt that people will be tossed out of raids and mythic+ over it.

There's a sort of trickle-down elitism in WoW, if the big-name guilds do something a certain way, that attitude will show up all over, no matter how pointless it is for what people are actually doing, so if Method says "You have to be with this covenant for your class/spec", suddenly everybody will demand it.

This is why I've hated the growth of "guide" sites that tell you how to do everything. It fosters elitist attitudes. If you aren't doing what one of the guides says, you're wrong and deserve to be kicked because you're a noob.

It was MUCH better when people figured things out on their own. It was much better when chat wasn't filled with "What's the best DPS Spec for X"

[protpaul]

This is why I've hated the growth of "guide" sites that tell you how to do everything. It fosters elitist attitudes. If you aren't doing what one of the guides says, you're wrong and deserve to be kicked because you're a noob.

It was MUCH better when people figured things out on their own. It was much better when chat wasn't filled with "What's the best DPS Spec for X"

When was this magical time? It wasn't in vanilla...

[Stardrift]

If players get shit on for picking the wrong talents, they'll get shit on for picking the wrong covenants.

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This is why I've hated the growth of "guide" sites that tell you how to do everything. It fosters elitist attitudes. If you aren't doing what one of the guides says, you're wrong and deserve to be kicked because you're a noob.

It was MUCH better when people figured things out on their own. It was much better when chat wasn't filled with "What's the best DPS Spec for X"

Take away their guides and add-ons and they're suddenly a much, much worse player than the LFR heroes they make fun of.

[protpaul]

If players get shit on for picking the wrong talents, they'll get shit on for picking the wrong covenants.

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Take away their guides and add-ons and they're suddenly a much, much worse player than the LFR heroes they make fun of.

I can't see how... yes speccing properly makes a massive difference but its usual more then just class knowledge separating that playerbase.

[DemonDays]

Fun is subjective, but I think everyone can agree that getting consistently outperformed isn't fun. (And potentially being removed from groups because of it.) Especially because you made the "wrong" choice.

Covenants need either incredibly precise balancing, or they need to be utility-only like using the special powers on Argus to find hidden chests and loot.

See your last sentence? This is why Covenants as a system are doomed to failure.

If it wasn't Blizzard running this company I would be praising this system. It does indeed add an RPG element back into the game. A meaningful choice.

However. It's Blizzard. I'm sorry, but their track record on balance is atrocious. Their lack of care towards leaving classes/specs/systems in the dumpster for entire expansions is a joke.


Legiondaries, Artifacts, Azerite, Essences and Corruption are your most recent examples of their god awful balance.

But by far the worst example of their horrible balancing? Talents. Talents are an unbalanced joke and they have literally done NOTHING to address this in Shadowlands. Almost every single spec is still going to be picking the exact same talents on every row. The same ones we've been using for 2 years.

I mean, do these look balanced to you?

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve...thknight/frost

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This is why I've hated the growth of "guide" sites that tell you how to do everything. It fosters elitist attitudes. If you aren't doing what one of the guides says, you're wrong and deserve to be kicked because you're a noob.

It was MUCH better when people figured things out on their own. It was much better when chat wasn't filled with "What's the best DPS Spec for X"

Lets give you an example.

Demon Hunter, Havoc. Arguably one of the easiest specs to play. So let's say it will attract the worst players. Just for arguments sake.

Why are 99% of them choosing Demonic on the last row?

Is it possibly because its the most fun talent? Is it because it thematically fits the playstyle of turning into a demon more frequently? Is it also possibly because even little Johnny the LFR hero can work out that Demonic is like 20% better than the other two choices on that row?

So why isn't Demonic baseline? It is integral to the spec.

I can give you shitloads of other examples. Talents that are almost mandatory. Talents that feel like you pick it or the spec is shit to play.

Why can the worst possible players work this out without guides?

[Stardrift]

I can't see how... yes speccing properly makes a massive difference but its usual more then just class knowledge separating that playerbase.

When the expansion hits, don't update any of your raid/dungeon add-ons and don't look at any guides besides how to do a bossfight.

Pick a spec you like and customize it to how you want, without looking at any guides.

[dav5037]

There's a difference between wanting to be successful and wanting to be carried. I consistently see people with sub 1k io's refusing people into their groups with 1800 io's for a simple 15 key. The community has this garbage perception ever since gearscore addons, in-game item level, and raider.io have been put into the game, it creates this idiotic perception of what's "good" and what's "bad". Meanwhile you have these same players denying Cutting Edge Raiders, who decide to invest more time into raiding than doing M+ for something as simple as a 15 key because all they look at is this idiotic arbitrary number that really doesn't mean shit until 3k io because of how many carry groups are out there.

As for covenants, this is the situation that's currently being faced, each covenant is excessively powerful for different aspects of play for many classes. I'll use Mage as an example since I'm currently most versed in their situation.

- Necrolord is currently the best for Raiding, because it's a cooldown that provides a 10% Spell Power increase and lines up with both Arcane and Frosts specs cooldowns and will line up with Combustion when using the now buffed Kindling talent.

- Venthyr is currently the best for M+ because of the overall Covenant ability being 1 minute cooldown teleport ability which is going to allow for major skips within the dungeon. On top of their spec ability being an extra form of control, aka a snare > root > silence.

- Kyrian is currently the best for PvP because if it's frequent burst addition being so strong a 30 second cooldown that increases your damage by 10% on top of doing a large amount of damage in the first place is huge in PvP.

So for a player like myself who does all three forms of content at a high level(Every Cutting Edge, Multi-Class Gladiator, several season 3500 io player) this is a massive problem for the game and it's going to force me to choose what's most important, therefore punishing me for wanting to be successful and to do everything the game has to offer. This is the case for many classes right now in Shadowlands and Covenants are going to cause an even further divide within the community.

I have a legitimate question for you on this one....why is it such a bad thing for you to be able to do all of them at high level but but specialize in one of the 3 areas? I feel like it gives a way for people to distinguish what matters most to them. Sometimes I feel like when people argue for swapping covenants freely they are basically saying 'i want to be the best at everything at all times'. To me this is what led to the strengths/weaknesses of different classes being homogenized to where everyone has a mobility ability, aoe, similar offensive/defensive cds on similar timers etc...

IMO the game is more fun when you have to make tradeoffs via choices and feel meaningfully different (not necessarily better or worse from an overall game perspective) from another player of your class. I personally really like the idea of sacrificing power in one aspect (maybe aoe) to gain power in another (cc/mobility/single target). Another example would be a burst ability vs a sustained ability where the sustain does higher dmg overall but over a longer peroid. If there is no tradeoff between abilities then I don't think the abilities and the choice cannot be made interesting.

Now I will admit where this would become a problem in my opinion is when the gap between the choices is too large (which i know is a subjective breakpoint). For ease of example let's use necrolord vs venthyr from your post above. If the gap between these two choices results in say a loss of 15% dps in raids (again the 15% is subjective here) then we start to push into the realm of always wanting to take the necrolord mage over the venthyr. If the gap is only 5-10% i feel like this behavior would be quelled quite a bit. There will always be those who ONLY take the necro specialized mage in raids, but you would have that same advantage of being chosen over others in M+. In addition at the highest level of content (mythic raids, high keys etc...) much of the groups being formed are through relationships and connections to others vs pugs. So as long as the gap between the abilities is within reason, I feel people will choose the player they know/have run with before and can vouch for ability vs a random with an extra 5% dmg potential that may not even be realized based on player skill.

Just my 2 cents, please feel free to respond and discuss as it's a very interesting discussion game philosophy wise

[Zyky]

I have a legitimate question for you on this one....why is it such a bad thing for you to be able to do all of them at high level but but specialize in one of the 3 areas?

The primary issue is, I'm a top end player for all of them, I enjoy doing all of them. I don't spend 7 days a week raiding, I raid 3 days a week, I do M+ 2 nights a week, and I do PvP spread out over the whole week when me and my friends feel like queing.

I feel like it gives a way for people to distinguish what matters most to them. Sometimes I feel like when people argue for swapping covenants freely they are basically saying 'i want to be the best at everything at all times'. To me this is what led to the strengths/weaknesses of different classes being homogenized to where everyone has a mobility ability, aoe, similar offensive/defensive cds on similar timers etc...

Everything matters, the problem is that when you're disadvantaged in any aspect of the game because you were forced to pick otherwise, that's a horrible feeling and it pushes you away from playing the game. I play and enjoy all aspects of the game, why should I be forced to pick one aspect over the other two? That's horrible design.

IMO the game is more fun when you have to make tradeoffs via choices and feel meaningfully different (not necessarily better or worse from an overall game perspective) from another player of your class. I personally really like the idea of sacrificing power in one aspect (maybe aoe) to gain power in another (cc/mobility/single target). Another example would be a burst ability vs a sustained ability where the sustain does higher dmg overall but over a longer peroid. If there is no tradeoff between abilities then I don't think the abilities and the choice cannot be made interesting.

So here's the hypothetical for you. You pick the covenant for raiding, you're immediately disadvantaged in PvP and in M+, you'll be denied from M+ pugs and pushing high end arena will be impossible because of how much min/maxing coupled with skill is required for Gladiator. Why is it acceptable that a single ability dictates and pigeon-holes what type of content I'm going to be most efficient at when my skill level allows me to play any aspect of the game at that high level for the last decade and a half?

[Lei]

And now we see the problem in WoW's design that began 15 years ago. Push your game to only focus on the endgame and slowly but surely the story or choices don't matter. Nothing matters except the numbers. There cannot be a meaningful choice as long as there are actual gameplay affecting abilities; it will always devolve into "good" and "not good". Ideally the goal is to make the gap between them as minimal as possible and make it so a choice might not be as good as another in one way but makes up for it in another which keeps it as a viable option.

Honestly I don't see a solution anymore. Blizzard has made their own bed with the direction they've pushed the game and still largely ignoring everything other than the high endgame, just tweaking things down. Covenants are a really cool idea doomed to fail if the abilities stay as they are, and either they don't realize that, don't care, or are stupid enough to not think the people who will ignore all flavor and aesthetic when picking a covenant won't have their warped ideas trickle down to nearly every other part of the game at worst or at best create yet another divide between "good" players and "bads".

Can't you get the aesthetics on alts and use them on your main? Because if you can, then I'm sad to say the game has been working like this since... When was the first multi character achievement? Quintessential Quintet This. This was the first ever achievement that wanted you to have multiple characters. With Legion order halls they kinda went one step further. Not to mention how if you want to collect stuff, you NEED multiple characters because of the shitty drop rates on a daily lockout. At this point I kinda think this is intentional. IF, IF the covenant aesthetics are unlockable on alts and usable on other characters. It's sad but at least the aesthetic part of the problem is out of question then.
But this is just half the story of course. We still have multispec people, pvp/pve, m+/raiding where the balancing is impossible, hence, picking one is impossible.

[protpaul]

When the expansion hits, don't update any of your raid/dungeon add-ons and don't look at any guides besides how to do a bossfight.

Pick a spec you like and customize it to how you want, without looking at any guides.

I mean I play havok and only use dbm for a countdown timer since I find the timer bars distracting. Unless we are counting ui mods like evli ui I have already done most of your challenge.

I still swap around talents/essences/corruption based on the situation but people over value the effects mods have. Outside of a few very rng heavy fights they are not needed. Only archi comes to mind for a recent example but I missed most of bfa minus this last patch.

[Kallisto]

For a game that has such a minuscule amount of content for each specific "type" why shouldn't I want to perform optimally in all of them? Why shouldn't I want to have fun in all of them?

Oh I picked the raiding Covenant. Too bad there's only one fucking raid available for 6+ months and I can only play it ONCE per week for 3-4 hours.

Fuck I picked the PvP covenant. I can only really have fun with it in BGs and Arenas. It's shit everywhere else.

etc etc etc.




It's actually pretty comical that these things needs to be pointed out to people.

Because it's an rpg, choices are supposed to be meaningful, set in stone with perks and drawbacks.

[LorDC]

Because it's an rpg, choices are supposed to be meaningful, set in stone with perks and drawbacks.

Designing the game around arbitrary-meaning three-letter acronyms is definitely better than designing them around what's actually fun.

[SirBeef]

Which means it cannot be done when you need to swap builds between M+ and Raiding and back again. Or between Single Target and Multi Target bosses.

Oh well. I'm not really gonna worry about that. I'll choose the covenant I like best for my playstyle and deal with it.

[Echocho]

If players get shit on for picking the wrong talents, they'll get shit on for picking the wrong covenants.

That's good news. I've never gotten shit for picking the "wrong" talents and I'm a mythic raider.

[dav5037]

So here's the hypothetical for you. You pick the covenant for raiding, you're immediately disadvantaged in PvP and in M+, you'll be denied from M+ pugs and pushing high end arena will be impossible because of how much min/maxing coupled with skill is required for Gladiator. Why is it acceptable that a single ability dictates and pigeon-holes what type of content I'm going to be most efficient at when my skill level allows me to play any aspect of the game at that high level for the last decade and a half?

So I have 2 questions on this. First, how high are we talking here because for example with pvp you can get gladiator even without being 100% optimal. One example I could use here is that as a rogue, if I decide to be slightly sub-optimal and choose cheat death over elusiveness for arenas it would not prevent me from getting glad. If we're talking like method level or awc level then sure....but that is such a small fraction of the population that I would argue if something makes the game more fun for the rest it's worth causing the top .01% a bit of a headache.

Second, when you say that you'll be denied from M+ pugs and high level arena. If you are doing the content at the level mentioned above where these choices would be truly necessary, would you really be pugging it? I'm legitimately curious because my experience has been that at that level most groups are formed through existing connections with other players. In those cases players wouldn't already know your skill level and be more inclined to bring you based on skill vs the ability choice you made?

The last thing I would say is that if the choice is extreme enough to the point where it does pigeon-hole you and truly makes the content you want to do impossible then imo the gap is too large between the abilities. For me this choice would IDEALLY look something like "I choose an ability that does high burst dmg for pvp but will leave me with 5% less dmg over the course of a long raid boss (not all raid bosses) compared to another ability". The hard part with all of this is making the choice matter but not be so extreme that it's mandatory (outside of the .01% where it'll always be mandatory).

[dav5037]

So here's the hypothetical for you. You pick the covenant for raiding, you're immediately disadvantaged in PvP and in M+, you'll be denied from M+ pugs and pushing high end arena will be impossible because of how much min/maxing coupled with skill is required for Gladiator. Why is it acceptable that a single ability dictates and pigeon-holes what type of content I'm going to be most efficient at when my skill level allows me to play any aspect of the game at that high level for the last decade and a half?

So I have 2 questions on this. First, how high are we talking here because for example with pvp you can get gladiator even without being 100% optimal. One example I could use here is that as a rogue, if I decide to be slightly sub-optimal and choose cheat death over elusiveness for arenas it would not prevent me from getting glad. If we're talking like method level or awc level then sure....but that is such a small fraction of the population that I would argue if something makes the game more fun for the rest it's worth causing the top .01% a bit of a headache.

Second, when you say that you'll be denied from M+ pugs and high level arena. If you are doing the content at the level mentioned above where these choices would be truly necessary, would you really be pugging it? I'm legitimately curious because my experience has been that at that level most groups are formed through existing connections with other players. In those cases wouldn't players already know your skill level and be more inclined to bring you based on skill vs the ability choice you made?

The last thing I would say is that if the choice is extreme enough to the point where it does pigeon-hole you and truly makes the content you want to do impossible then imo the gap is too large between the abilities. For me this choice would IDEALLY look something like "I choose an ability that does high burst dmg for pvp but will leave me with 5% less dmg over the course of a long raid boss (not all raid bosses) compared to another ability". The hard part with all of this is making the choice matter but not be so extreme that it's mandatory (outside of the .01% where it'll always be mandatory).

[shade3891]

As a monk i really like the kyrian leather armor set, but I really would like the Venthyr movement skill for m+. And if I could I would like the night fae damage skill.

If all players can choose freely, I would say your more unique.

[dav5037]

As a monk i really like the kyrian leather armor set, but I really would like the Venthyr movement skill for m+. And if I could I would like the night fae damage skill.

If all players can choose freely, I would say your more unique.

So in this example why do you feel like you should simply get all the things you want instead of having to decide which of these 3 is most important and make a trade-off? Is it that bad to ask you to sacrifice something to get something else that you want?

[bowlink]

So in this example why do you feel like you should simply get all the things you want instead of having to decide which of these 3 is most important and make a trade-off? Is it that bad to ask you to sacrifice something to get something else that you want?

easy he doesn't get to choose the armour he really want. because the utility spell of the kyrian sucks donkey dick, he wants the venthyr broken ability for M+ Skips because they will be mandotory, or want want the night fae abiltiy problely for raiding.

so he picks kyrian he would giving up both M+ because and/or raiding.

im shure classic mages enjoyed playing one spec for multible tiers because they were benched if they didn't

the same thing happends when achievements were put in. to sutch extent that they started feeling like a post college job interview.
you need the achievement to raid but to get achievement you need to raid.

oh you want to join ower mythic+ oh you're kyrian...your invite request has been denied i bet you 5 bucks someone will make an addon that checks which covanant you are and automaticly rejects you when it doesn't read the right one.

the fact that blizzard put in 2 other systems just to balance this one tells you how broken it is.

meaningfull choice is important however this is not the way to go about it.

[shade3891]

So in this example why do you feel like you should simply get all the things you want instead of having to decide which of these 3 is most important and make a trade-off? Is it that bad to ask you to sacrifice something to get something else that you want?

Not saying that I simply need to get everything, those are just the ones I currently have to pick between. I'm certain more players are in the same boat wanting a mix of things. I know already I will play a lot of m+ in SL as that is content I really enjoy. That said, there is not really a choice anymore as the Ventyr teleport is the best for that type of content. So I guess you could say it's a forced choice based on the content I like.

Sure I could go an other route but I feel i let my team down. So that means transmog and class ability is something i will have to deal with. But when i see another player with the transmog I wanted I start to feel really sad because I can not get it and I really do like transmog gear.

I rather would like:


https://i.imgur.com/d2hPfxA.png

(1) When you reach lvl 60, choose what story to continue and with that define your soulbinds.
(2) When you reach lvl 60, Choose the covenant ability that suits your needs.
(3) When you reach lvl 60, Choose the class ability that suits your way of playing.
(4) Choose the transmog set that you want to unlock, after you complete all main stories in all leveling zones (on any character).
(This option might also be fine being combined with the first row.)