"Forced" or "Mandatory" covenants

[qwerty123456]

Reeks of "i want to play what i want and expect other people to carry me"

Clearly I struck a nerve with you. Your obviously a player who couldn't safety dance draining the anniversary raid. I can't count the times I inspected dead noobs during it that had high item levels.

[Soon-TM]

Also, not all min-maxing players get angry when the rest of the group is under-performing for whatever reason.

If you are underperforming because of bad luck with drops, bad internet connection, RL issues poking in, it's ok. Underperforming for the lulz is generally frowned upon, and you will be among the first to be benched if things start going south. Ofc, if all you are going to do are random BGs and normal/LFR, then it's ok if you don't give a !@%&... but that doesn't mean that everyone else should too.

[A Chozo]

Underperforming for the lulz is generally frowned upon, and you will be among the first to be benched if things start going south. Ofc, if all you are going to do are random BGs and normal/LFR, then it's ok if you don't give a !@%&... but that doesn't mean that everyone else should too.

All me and my guild do is Heroic/Mythic Raiding, M+, Arenas and Rated BGs. Some players underperform because they don't have the dexterity, other chose niche talents / specs, etc.

We still progress.
We still have fun.
No one is being benched. They never were, they never will, because we play with each other, not against each other.

We and all WoW players who behave like us do not overlap with whoever is playing with you, which means that there's no need to project your min-maxing needs on the whole of the WoW community - hence everyone in this thread think that butchering the current Shadowlands proposal in favor of a obsessive min-maxing community is suicide.

[Soon-TM]

All me and my guild do is Heroic/Mythic Raiding, M+, Arenas and Rated BGs. Some players underperform because they don't have the dexterity, other chose niche talents / specs, etc.

We still progress.
We still have fun.
No one is being benched. They never were, they never will, because we play with each other, not against each other.

We and all WoW players who behave like us do not overlap with whoever is playing with you, which means that there's no need to project your min-maxing needs on the whole of the WoW community - hence everyone in this thread think that butchering the current Shadowlands proposal in favor of a obsessive min-maxing community is suicide.

Let's see if it remains that way in Shadowlands

[Vellithe]

There's a difference between accepting of other people under-performing for whatever reason and people who expect to either be carried or for others to make up for their performance.

That's not even the main issue I was talking about. I was talking about when a guild hits a performance check and wipes and wipes and wipes. Good players who are on an average guild kind of expect the low performance, but the more noob traps there are, the worse the gap becomes, and there comes a point where you just can't really make up for them.

Most average guilds are, like someone else said, about "bonding". They are friends. They want to play together. So what happens when the best way to tackle the current boss is "drop people from the group", meaning the empty slot does more for the group than someone being there? If the guild has a good lead, he'll probably manage to "bench" the lower players so that the guild keeps progressing and they can come when they become more carry-able. But good leads are hard to find even on strong guilds, you can't expect to have a master of social situations in a guild having issues with heroic or lower. Then the situation is either they drop some people for progress and a lot of people get angry over how it was done, or they don't drop anyone and stick to wiping for a few hours, which makes everyone miserable and may cause the few good players to leave - it's no longer a pleasant casual run when you're wiping over and over, and it's doubly irritating when you can stick a face to the problem.

Like, who cares if the fight takes 6 minutes instead of 4? That doesn't matter on a casual guild. The issue is it taking hours.

[Netherblood]

Any decently ranked mythic guild will require their raiders to run best covenants, we are all already meming about having to have 4 characters of same class, one of each covenant.

Some are actually preparing for that. A lot of people in the guild are gladiators and 5k+ IO, with some being 5.5K+. My point is we have raiders that enjoy doing all kinds of content and to push it in all areas of that content. With covenants they will either have to have 3-4 characters one for each type of content, take turns on what type of content they focus on ( raid progression first, then push M+ during farm, and pvp during end of season), or do most likely insane grinds to swap covenants weekly.

Taking turns and being denied doing some content is not fun, and having to maintain 3-4 characters of same class is bad design. WoW is too complex of a game for covenants to be tuned properly.

Also swapping covenants between raid nights for different bosses might become a thing, AP grinds might be gone but covenant swap grinds is just another thing mythic raiders are dreading.

- - - Updated - - -

If a guild needs to exploit imbalance and use only op shit to clear content then they are clearly over playing their skill level and should either drop down in difficulty,swap a player or two out, or actually learn how to play the game. Expecting free swaps to get the most op skill for the situation so they can continue to be mediocre is actually more harmful to the game then having a noticeable gap in the number of guilds who cleared x raid but failed at y. At least with the latter Blizzard has to then take a look and see what needs buffing and what needs nerfs.

Its not about the ability to kill it, its about min/maxing to kill bosses in least amount of time/pull possible to achieve your goals, be it Hall of Fame on horde side if you are low hour guild or top 20-30 world for more hardcore, or just getting CE for more casual guilds. In the end its about min maxing your character to do the best you can, it feels shitty to not have optimized character because you have a job and didn't have 10 hours to grind out a covenant swap for next boss or couldn't maintain a second character of same class with different covenant. I'v had raiders quit in BFA and Legion because they couldn't handle the grinds, and we didn't even require crazy stuff, they just felt bad because others were doing more because they had more free time and they felt like they were holding the guild back.

Raiding is a group effort, it feels really shitty when you feel like you are holding the guild back purely because you don't have time or stomach for insane and boring grinds.

[Tyris Flare]

The attitude difference is also not hardcore vs casual, I think it is more accurately competitive versus casual.

Like, yes, you can clear all content (especially in this easy patch) with very un-optimized everything. However, if you are someone who enjoys competition - as in, performing your best and having consistent high parses - you can't afford to just yolo with talent choices and so forth. I don't think the game needs another system to min-max performance on top of what we already have, personally.

[Fkiolaris]

The attitude difference is also not hardcore vs casual, I think it is more accurately competitive versus casual.

Like, yes, you can clear all content (especially in this easy patch) with very un-optimized everything. However, if you are someone who enjoys competition - as in, performing your best and having consistent high parses - you can't afford to just yolo with talent choices and so forth. I don't think the game needs another system to min-max performance on top of what we already have, personally.

I said it many times before: you don't need to be pushing for the absolute highest difficulty content before you start caring about your performance. If the ceiling of my ability is Heroic or even Normal raids and casual BGs, then I still do care about performing well on those. I won't show up as a feral druid wearing cloth intellect gear because I am a casual and don't give a fuck, I will still try to optimise because I don't like to be carried or showing up in a BG just to bend over and be a free HK. This system takes away that from me and people like me and I can tell you we are not few and far between. As it stands, this system makes the expansion a non-purchase for me, for better or worse.

[A Chozo]

Like, yes, you can clear all content (especially in this easy patch) with very un-optimized everything. However, if you are someone who enjoys competition - as in, performing your best and having consistent high parses - you can't afford to just yolo with talent choices and so forth.

The competitive players are aware of the sacrifices and will chose the Covenant that better suits their need. That's also part of WoW being a RPG, and has worked this way in Gaming ever since the first tier list for the first fighting game. Blizzard won't stop pushing for new interesting systems just because a small part of it's playerbase can't commit to the sacrifices of competitiveness.

In the same sense, Blizzard won't stop rewarding the top of the playerbase with the coolest stuff just because the unwilling players don't wanna commit to earn it.

Double-edged blade.

[Krakan]

Nobody cares. You can choose whichever covenant you like. You have that freedom. Make sure it's not a choice you end up regretting. And if you do you can always start over. Or level alts like the people who chose Resto Shaman because they wanted to be good in raids but realized that other healers are better in M+. Blizzard are even making leveling easier for you. Players who care about the RPG aspect of the game have been waiting for Blizzard to throw them a bone for years now. Not everyone cares about min/maxing nolife dps fest.

I mean I care. I have no desire to run though hoops to run my preferred content. I doubt you do either so why is it only acceptable for me to be burdened with systems clearly not designed for me but not for you?

[[Apok]]

Clearly I struck a nerve with you. Your obviously a player who couldn't safety dance draining the anniversary raid. I can't count the times I inspected dead noobs during it that had high item levels.

Sure, of course, safety dance during the anniversary wasn't a problem having had to do it during two tiers prievously.

I simply responded with the level of hyperbole you seem to respond to people with when you actualyl have no cogent argument to validate your viewpoint being forced on others. High item-level doesn't equal a skilled or progressed player, someone with high item level who choose the incorrect gear for their character can be just as much burden to a raid.

[qwerty123456]

Sure, of course, safety dance during the anniversary wasn't a problem having had to do it during two tiers prievously.

I simply responded with the level of hyperbole you seem to respond to people with when you actualyl have no cogent argument to validate your viewpoint being forced on others. High item-level doesn't equal a skilled or progressed player, someone with high item level who choose the incorrect gear for their character can be just as much burden to a raid.

The dude I originally responded to literally said people who can't use op skills then will need to do better with mechanics. Clearly if you have to rely on what ever is op instead of actual skill then you are overplaying your skill level. There was no hyperbole. Just because you take offense to something doesn't make it a non valid argument.

[[Apok]]

The dude I originally responded to literally said people who can't use op skills then will need to do better with mechanics. Clearly if you have to rely on what ever is op instead of actual skill then you are overplaying your skill level. There was no hyperbole. Just because you take offense to something doesn't make it a non valid argument.

I mean sure if you lack reading comprehension it might have seemed like that.

Not having the ability to switch covenants or each covenant having comparable soulbinds means that there is a disparity. there is zero difference to picking a sub-optimal covenant and doing anything else that is sub-optimal in your gear like wanting to use int items as a plate class because you want toleplay a paladin-warrior.

[DemonDays]

Exactly this list makes me wonder why does every convent have exactly 3 different soulbinds that are switchable to a much easier degree than switching the convenant: Maybe exactly because of this. You want x ability that is best in pvp. Then for bosses that require multi target you switch to x soulbind, for single target you switch to y soulbind and so on. The only issue that i see is if you could have both single and multitarget best in slot, but that should be balanceable in the soulbinds.

And these soulbinds are in the end much easier to balance out: does a convenant sucks in heavy raid pve: buff the soulbinds of it towards it and so on.

We don't know the complete picture yet; at least in this regard i see a light at the end of the tunnel; because for example for shadow priest: there is only darkness...

Have you seen the preview of the Soulbinds on wowhead?

They don't have the capacity to do that.


There is literally a DK ability that constantly pulls a target towards you, Death Gripping them every 2 seconds. Over and over for 10 seconds straight.

If that doesn't scream PICK THIS IF YOU WANT TO DO WELL IN PVP then I don't know what does.

- - - Updated - - -

The competitive players are aware of the sacrifices and will chose the Covenant that better suits their need. That's also part of WoW being a RPG, and has worked this way in Gaming ever since the first tier list for the first fighting game. Blizzard won't stop pushing for new interesting systems just because a small part of it's playerbase can't commit to the sacrifices of competitiveness.

In the same sense, Blizzard won't stop rewarding the top of the playerbase with the coolest stuff just because the unwilling players don't wanna commit to earn it.

Double-edged blade.

Don't put WoW and RPG in the same sentence. This hasn't been an RPG for a long, long time.

[A Chozo]

Don't put WoW and RPG in the same sentence. This hasn't been an RPG for a long, long time.

Do explain.

Because not only it's labelled as a RPG, but also retain several basic features that makes a game a RPG.

[DemonDays]

Do explain.

Because not only it's labelled as a RPG, but also retain several basic features that makes a game a RPG.

Worst character customization of any MMO. Worse than most mobile MMOs? Check.
Barely any way to customize your characters gameplay? Check.
Stats being heavily imbalanced so you really only want two. No diversity of builds? Check
Talent rows having mandatory choices so there is no real choice? (throwing previously baseline abilities in talents) Check.
Boring as fuck stats like Mastery and Haste. Where you basically always want as much Haste as possible on literally every single spec? Check.
Removal of Re-Forging? Check.
Removal of Glyphs? Check.
Removal of CHARACTER PROGRESSION. No new talent row and no new baseline abilities for 6 years? Check.
Not being able to choose how you want to play the game. Forced to do WQ and rep grinds for literally everything? When previously you could run dungeons or raids and get rep? Check.

We used to have customization. We used to be able to tailor our playstyles. Regardless if some things were OP like armor pen builds.



Shall I go on?

[Echocho]

Worst character customization of any MMO. Worse than most mobile MMOs? Check.
Barely any way to customize your characters gameplay? Check.
Stats being heavily imbalanced so you really only want two. No diversity of builds? Check
Talent rows having mandatory choices so there is no real choice? (throwing previously baseline abilities in talents) Check.
Boring as fuck stats like Mastery and Haste. Where you basically always want as much Haste as possible on literally every single spec? Check.
Removal of Re-Forging? Check.
Removal of Glyphs? Check.
Removal of CHARACTER PROGRESSION. No new talent row and no new baseline abilities for 6 years? Check.
Not being able to choose how you want to play the game. Forced to do WQ and rep grinds for literally everything? When previously you could run dungeons or raids and get rep? Check.

We used to have customization. We used to be able to tailor our playstyles. Regardless if some things were OP like armor pen builds.



Shall I go on?

That's not a reason to make it less of a RPG, if anything it's reason to introduce more systems like this in order to make it into the RPG we deserve.

[DemonDays]

That's not a reason to make it less of a RPG, if anything it's reason to introduce more systems like this in order to make it into the RPG we deserve.

What?

I just listed reasons WHY this game ISN'T an RPG anymore. I am not making a case to make it less of an RPG. It already is less of an RPG.



Obviously they need to introduce more systems like the ones they've systematically removed.

[SirBeef]

Unless you have whales that compensate lower sub count via MTX, Blizzard most certainly cares about subs.

They have told us to unsub if we are unhappy or bored and wait for a new patch or expansion to come back for years now. Sure subs drive most of the revenue, and they do care but I'm certain the sub number is still far above the number it needs to hit before they "worry".

[A Chozo]

Shall I go on?

You didn't show a single point that removes the RPG tag and the RPG status of WoW. Hell, the fact that you think you are forced to do some stuff is borderline comic.

Your little annoyances with the quality (or lack of) of WoW don't make it less of a RPG.

It is a RPG, or it isn't.