Four British neo-Nazis Jailed on Terrorism Charges

[Dead Moose Fandango]

If the group doesn't exist as a name, it doesn't stop the discussion. That's the base concept of a group, people that share an interest. The group could be disgusting as fuck but such people exist and it shouldn't be a crime to hold dumb or hateful ideas.

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Sure, hence the "IMO". I don't agree with crimes that relate to banning ideas, interests or beliefs.

Which is fair enough. I myself am ok with the banning of crimes belonging to a group such as Nazis. There are few groups that fit in that category, but Nazis are one of them.

[Saltysquidoon]

Honestly, if you actually look at the list of prescribed groups you can see it is quite extensive and highly politically charged (for example both sides of Irish militias [including the IRA and the UDF] and the Tamil Tigers are included).

I'd say its actually perfectly fair to question if this legislation is overreaching and just saying "BuT wHy ArE yOu DeFeNdInG nAzIs ThOuGh" isn't necessarily a valid criticism (obviously some people are actually racist and or trolling).
Any citizen of a country with a written constitution (i.e every non-uk country in the anglosphere) would find a member of the executive arm of government effective fiat to outlaw and organisation without judicial review disconcerting.

There also the sticky wicket of whether a domestic act of a nation-state can ever legally have extraterritorial jurisdiction without impinging on the inherent sovereignty of another nation-state.

[Edge-]

The group could be disgusting as fuck but such people exist and it shouldn't be a crime to hold dumb or hateful ideas.

A former Miss Hitler beauty pageant contestant has been jailed for three years for being part of a banned extreme right group.

...

The 23-year-old exchanged hundreds of messages with members of hate group National Action, many of which were racist and anti-semitic.

...

The CPS has revealed how officers found Nazi books , knuckledusters and knives at Cutter and Jones' house.

They also discovered a longbow, KKK images and a Nazi flag and stickers at Scothern's home.

At Cutter's retrial in March prosecutors said she had been a “central spoke” among the organisation’s hard-core, and entered the pageant to drive recruitment.

The group was dubbed a 'racist, anti-Semitic and homophobic organisation' by then Home Secretary Amber Rudd when it was banned in December 2016.

The urge for people to dismiss the seriousness of participation in Nazi groups still abso-fucking-lutely astounds me.

[zhero]

The urge for people to dismiss the seriousness of participation in Nazi groups still abso-fucking-lutely astounds me.

because i'd rather focus on the actions of groups doing more than thought crimes, like muggings, burglary, assault, murder, rioting, looting, forcefully taking over government buildings and booting out elected politicians, etc...

[kail]

The urge for people to dismiss the seriousness of participation in Nazi groups still abso-fucking-lutely astounds me.

If she were not in such a group but still appeased to Nazis, does she still deserve prison?

[Edge-]

because i'd rather focus on the actions of groups doing more than thought crimes, like muggings, burglary, assault, murder, etc...

That's presuming this is a zero-sum game and action taken against members of banned Nazi groups means other crimes are going unpursued and unpunished.

Which is patent nonsense.

Also, again, not a "thought crime", which are unspoken and un-acted upon thoughts and beliefs. All the individuals in the article most assuredly spoke about them, as I quoted, and acted upon them by formally joining what is a banned group.

People really need to re-read their Orwell.

[Orange Joe]

My point was based on the police having time to go out look for these people, while there're those actually destroying property and monuments openly in the streets. Lock them all up for all I care. Whether a Nazi or rioter, black or white or whatever. You do the crime you do the time.

Is there a bunch of riots in the UK at the moment or do you not understand geography?

[kail]

Also, again, not a "thought crime", which are unspoken and un-acted upon thoughts and beliefs. All the individuals in the article most assuredly spoke about them, as I quoted, and acted upon them by formally joining what is a banned group.

People really need to re-read their Orwell.

"In 1984's Oceania, spending time alone is almost a crime because it's considered odd, and odd people are a threat to a stable environment such as theirs." It's more than unspoken thoughts, it's not fitting in with the rest of society. The book attacks censorship as well which is fits if simply being hateful and a disgusting bigot is suddenly a crime.

[Elegiac]

"In 1984's Oceania, spending time alone is almost a crime because it's considered odd, and odd people are a threat to a stable environment such as theirs." It's more than unspoken thoughts, it's not fitting in with the rest of society. The book attacks censorship as well which is fits if simply being hateful and a disgusting bigot is suddenly a crime.

Are you actually attempting to make a serious "First, they came for the Nazis..." argument right now? Lol.

[Saltysquidoon]

Are you actually attempting to make a serious "First, they came for the Nazis..." argument right now? Lol.

Well if you consider the legislation's evolution over time it's really more of a "First, they came for the Irish nationalists..."

[kail]

Are you actually attempting to make a serious "First, they came for the Nazis..." argument right now? Lol.

Sorry if I don't believe in guilt by association or criminalizing hate and bigotry. I don't care if the subject is on Nazis, KKK, some religion, or flat earthers. Put them under whatever surveillance deemed necessary but to imprison them for their ideas goes against basic freedoms.

[Edge-]

Sorry if I don't believe in guilt by association

Guilt by involvement*

or criminalizing hate and bigotry.

At least not while you're not the target of that hate and bigotry, I guess. Probably feels a bit different when the shoe is on the other foot, though.

[Elegiac]

Sorry if I don't believe in guilt by association or criminalizing hate and bigotry. I don't care if the subject is on Nazis, KKK, some religion, or flat earthers.

Cool, then you should also consider a solution for what happens when tolerating the intolerant ends up mainlining their extremist beliefs?

[kail]

Guilt by involvement*

Involved in what crime? Before you say "Their group is banned and its a crime", I get that already. I'm asking what threats did this Hitler Pagent make to whom? Which Jewish civilians did she beat up or vandalize? What plan was uncovered in a terrorist plot?

At least not while you're not the target of that hate and bigotry, I guess. Probably feels a bit different when the shoe is on the other foot, though.

I have to be a victim to understand why it should be a crime?

[Mihalik]

Can't wait for communism and antifa to be classified as terrorists so cops and military can hunt them down, too.

You wanting to outlaw anti fascism and using the police the hunt down the anti fascists kinda shows which side of the "fascism is bad" debate you are on.

Also communist terrorism literally doesn't exist and the typical modern "communist" is either a 17-23 year old tankie on Twitter or an abstract 70 year old philosopher/academic/cultural critic who speaks with an incomprehensible accent and is known for a penchant for marrying 20 year olds.

But then again, for fascists like you everyone left of Mussolini is a communist.

[kail]

Cool, then you should also consider a solution for what happens when tolerating the intolerant ends up mainlining their extremist beliefs?

There's a huge difference between denying them a platform (social media bans and whatnot) and putting them in prison.

[Mihalik]

"In 1984's Oceania, spending time alone is almost a crime because it's considered odd, and odd people are a threat to a stable environment such as theirs." It's more than unspoken thoughts, it's not fitting in with the rest of society. The book attacks censorship as well which is fits if simply being hateful and a disgusting bigot is suddenly a crime.

I really wish your Reich Wingers would stop parroting Orwell out of context because you literally do not understand anything Orwell has ever written.

Ya'll like quote mining Orwell and Solzhenitsyn out of context while WILDLY MISUNDERSTANDING them. If irony had weight, the irony of Reich wingers citing Orwell while literally coming up with "alternative facts" and citing Solzhenitsyn while defending and running concentration camps and a massive prison industry and violent police tactics, the irony would collapse upon itself into a black hole.

Tho, really it's not exactly surprising, as after all that's what Reich wingers have always done with everything including the goddamn Bible. Take the bits and pieces ya'll like and ignore the rest.

Whatever.

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There's a huge difference between denying them a platform (social media bans and whatnot) and putting them in prison.

Would you say the same about an Islamic preacher who actively calls for Jihad and encourages his followers to murder "infidels"? Should he be prosecuted for that or is it enough to ban him from Twitter?

Keep in mind, we would know for a fact that some of his followers actually murdered people!

[Egomaniac]

"Oh please...won't someone think of all the little neo-nazi children"

[Felya]

"Oh please...won't someone think of all the little neo-nazi children"

What they are trying to pull with Orwell is fucking insane... this think of the nazis bullshit, is not even close to the absurdity these people are trying to pull with Orwell.

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"In 1984's Oceania, spending time alone is almost a crime because it's considered odd, and odd people are a threat to a stable environment such as theirs." It's more than unspoken thoughts, it's not fitting in with the rest of society. The book attacks censorship as well which is fits if simply being hateful and a disgusting bigot is suddenly a crime.

Are you calling the issue with fascism odd? Are you making the argument, that people need to hear the fascist that the entire book is dedicated to showing the evils of? Shouldn’t you be complaining that Orwell can’t write such generalizations about fascist he never met? Maybe if he if he listen to them, 1984 would be a book about a road trip?

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Involved in what crime? Before you say "Their group is banned and its a crime", I get that already. I'm asking what threats did this Hitler Pagent make to whom? Which Jewish civilians did she beat up or vandalize? What plan was uncovered in a terrorist plot?

Your interpretation of 1984, is that we need to wait until books are burning? How?

[Saltysquidoon]

Honestly, I'm sad no one wants to talk about constitutional heads of power and the express and implied limitations on the executive arm of government (and the extent discretion can be read into a statutorily created test) or the question of domestic extraterritorial jurisdiction as a matter of international law.