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  1. #541
    I am Murloc! Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    I'm not sure if it's been discussed in this shitshow of a thread, but in Wisconsin they tore down a statue of a white Union abolitionist who died trying to end slavery.

    https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/...ow/3248692001/

    Heg migrated to Waukesha County in Wisconsin from Norway in 1840. After two years in California during the Gold Rush of 1849, he returned to Wisconsin to care for his younger siblings and manage the family farm.

    Heg soon entered local politics and joined the Free Soil Party, which was centered around opposing the expansion of slavery into the western United States.

    He was also a leader of Wisconsin's Wide Awakes, an anti-slave catcher militia.

    In 1859, Heg used his position as state prison commissioner to advocate for vocational training rather than the punishment of prisoners.

    Heg was appointed colonel of the 15th Wisconsin Infantry — a group consisting mostly of recent immigrants from Scandinavia — in the fall of 1861. He trained at Camp Randall in December and left for the South on March 2, 1862.

    He defeated a number of Confederate armies in battles in Kentucky and Tennessee. On Dec. 30, 1862, Heg lost more than 100 men and had his horse shot out from under him. His general later called him "the bravest of the brave," according to the Wisconsin Historical Society.

    Heg's brigade chased a retreating Confederate army to Chickamauga, Georgia, on Sept. 19, 1863.

    Outnumbered, Heg was leading a charge in front of his troops when he was shot in the abdomen. He died the next morning.

    A triangular pyramid monument of 8-inch shells stacked 10 feet high marks the spot where Heg was mortally wounded, according to the National Park Service.


    Absolutely no reason or defense for tearing down this statue at all.
    Yeah, I am really confused about that as well. They apparently beat up a State Senator in the process, as Shadowferal posted. I am really not sure who is doing this, is it people just tearing down statues assuming they all must be bad? Or is it White supremacists making a statement? I am really confused as to what is going on here.

    Mob mentalities are bad. I get destroying monuments as a form of protest. I don't agree with it, but I get it. But the random violence and destruction is counterproductive and weird. I am curious to learn more about this incident.
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  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Of course they did. Part of the story of Winston Churchill is understanding the image of Churchill. He was charismatic, funny, and stubborn. He was a person they looked too when the times were desperate, and he was there for them. Churchill built an image of himself as the icon of British resilience, and it wasn't total bullshit. People were more then willing to overlook his incompetence because he projected strength.

    The US was more than willing to play along, even as Churchill's international political capital evaporated. He was an extremely useful propaganda tool, but an incompetent fool. The UK military was an absolutely pathetic mess for the entire war, not at the tactical level, where their soldiers were just as brave and resourceful as any other nation, but the upper ranks were infested with the sort of arrogant, incompetent, hereditary fools that defined Britains caste system. Even ignoring his insanely bad moral record, which I posted before, he had an absolutely pathetic track record in the war.

    A couple things to consider about Churchills "Brilliant" Leadership:
    The Fall of France- I know this one mostly falls on the French, who had similar systemic failings, but come on, the British Army there was pathetic. They had all the advantages and they lost to a numerically inferior force they knew was coming. Churchill's genius here was managing to spin Dunkirk as a victory. I am not misusing the term there, that does take a special kind of genius to make Dunkirk sound like a victory because some of you survived.

    The Fall of Norway- This one is even worse. Look at a map. Tell me how the most powerful navy in the world lost Norway to the Germans... The answer is directly tied to political incompetence by Churchill, who was obsessed with holding the navy in reserve for a decisive engagement with a German fleet that didn't exist (The same strategy he used in WWI, but with even more disaster). During this clusterfuck, the Royal Navy managed to lose a large aircraft carrier to a pair of battleships. The HMS Glorious was just sailing along, with no real escort and no fucking idea what was going on, and bumped into the only two German Battleships in the North Sea, which were also completely unnoticed and unmolested.

    North Africa- Like all of it. How the hell did the Royal Navy not control the Mediterranean when they controlled 3/4s of its shoreline, either directly or by alliance? They had a massive fleet, no real opposition by the Italian Navy, and the French navy was never used against them. Once again, Churchill managed to spin the disastrous attempts to resupply Malta as a victory, while Rommel was resupplying with absolute impunity. Once again, a fundamental problem was Churchills unwillingness to actually commit his fleets to supporting his armies. He let thousands die, to preserve Britain's fleet, which he viewed as critical to preserving the post-war empire (Which didn't exist, because Britain was never going to make the rules again, thanks to Churchill).
    Some simple reasons. 1 Britian didnt have infinite amount of fuel needing to import it from elsewhere. 2 air superoirity of the german luftwaffe in denmark and siciliy prevented the royal navy from doing anything. And do not unestimate the importance of Dunkirk. If the BEF in dunkirk was lost britian would have lost its best trained and most experienced soldiers and NCO´s and would have been crippeld for the rest of the war.

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Honestly, who the fuck cares about some irrelevant shit like that. He helped unite the world against the Nazi's. There would literally be no one in history that is "okay" according to these far left rioters. Get over it that some people didn't live up to your 2020 standards while sitting in your basement on a computer getting fat on cheetos. Privileged ass people that look down on people in a different time and culture. It's honestly incredibly aggravating.

    It's real easy to just sit there on your computer and complain about heroes in the past that weren't perfect or made mistakes while ignoring the great achievements and strides they made for humandkind.
    So fuck 2-3 million people dying of starvation and other related deaths due to Churchill's actions as leader? You seriously going to say that or is it because they are brown skinned Indian people then who the fuck cares about them? There is no trying to hold somebody to a 2020 standard here because mainly his actions as leader and "scorching" the land in India up to 3 million innocent men, women, and children died. That is monstrously reprehensible in any fucking age of history. You can't just whitewash that away that is on Churchill.

  4. #544
    I am Murloc! Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    Some simple reasons. 1 Britian didnt have infinite amount of fuel needing to import it from elsewhere. 2 air superoirity of the german luftwaffe in denmark and siciliy prevented the royal navy from doing anything. And do not unestimate the importance of Dunkirk. If the BEF in dunkirk was lost britian would have lost its best trained and most experienced soldiers and NCO´s and would have been crippeld for the rest of the war.
    Not trying to turn this into a WWII thread, the point is more that he was an objective failure at pretty much everything he touched, and always managed to spin it in a way that made himself look good.

    As far as those two cases 1) The UK had fuel problems, but not nearly as bad as Germany did and 2) Yeah, exactly. That air superiority is part of the problem. Churchill consistently refused to use the RAF in anything other than as terror bombing and defensive tool. There is absolutely no reason that the UK could not have forward deployed the RAF and actually contested that air space. You know, like the US did everywhere it went. If the US could create airfields out of nothing in the middle of the pacific, and contest the air within days of landing, there is no reason Britain could not have used the permanent and established airfields across North Africa, Norway and their Mediterranean possessions to contest. But they didn't, and the Germans did. The Germans invaded Crete from the air, they could do that because they were willing to actually use their air forces like a modern nation does. Britain was never willing to do that.

    And I am not underestimating the importance of Dunkirk, but it wasn't a victory, it was a rout. The fact that much of the BEF survived is important, but it was an escape from a fight that was winnable. The Wermacht was not invincible, the British and French armies were riddled with political officers that were shit at fighting a war, and made decisions based on what was good for their personal careers, not what allowed them to win wars. And that is a culture that starts at the top.

    Sorry, rant. The fundamental point that is relevant to this thread is that there are many legitimate reasons why not everyone views Winston Churchill as a national hero. While I do not believe statues of him should be torn down, his historical character really needs to be revisiting with the blinders of wartime propaganda removed.
    Last edited by Thekri; 2020-06-25 at 02:13 AM.
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    "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done." DJT- Feb 26, 2020
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  5. #545
    Banned Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Wisconsin has gone full radical in extremist; Demonstrators on Tuesday night toppled two statues outside of the state's Capitol, one depicting the fictional "Lady Forward" and another targeting anti-slavery activist Hans Christian Heg. Photos showed the Heg statue removed from its base and dumped in a nearby body of water.

    State Sen. Tim Carpenter (D) said that he was assaulted by protesters and "kicked in the head" Tuesday night as he filmed demonstrators outside of the state Capitol. He tweeted that he was "Punched/kicked in the head, neck, ribs. Maybe concussion, socked in left eye is little blurry, sore neck & ribs. 8-10 people attacked me."

    -----

    Violence for violence sake...wtg.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Absolutely no reason or defense for tearing down this statue at all.
    Just like i said, they topple statues not because they actually have anything in mind, but because these are bad whitey.

    - - - Updated - - -
    @Thekri sorry I won't cite your legit criticism of Churchill because it's too long for a quote and I'm not sure if Britons didn't have this all in mind when they erected a statue of him and named him the greatest Briton, but again, people who are willing to topple his statue do so not because they weighted and reconsidered his figure but because he's a bad whitey. Honestly though, people coming from abroad and willing to benefit from nation forged by him and others should cope with his and others' statues some more
    Last edited by Yadryonych; 2020-06-25 at 03:23 AM.

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    What does this indicate? You've not indicated the worth of the benefit...typically there are benefits but they are 1)a large portion of the salary 2)not very robust, with still high payments

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...s-cost-voxcare



    I noted that they do not have substantial benefits having benefits, and having benefits worth a damn are two totally different things.

    in the context of the discussion we were having, it indicates that the 600 dollars was meant to also help people pay for insurance they were losing on top of other benefits. That when you factor this into the equation a lot of people in the bucket of people "making more money by not working" they really are not making more. And if they are a lot of them are making substancially less than the report stated.

    sure the benefits might suck, but they still have to replace the insurance they lost that their employer was picking up part of the cost, they now have to pick up the full cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    I noted that they do not have substantial benefits having benefits, and having benefits worth a damn are two totally different things.
    its quite substancial when you get cancer or COVID-19 and end up in the hospital for a few weeks....
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  7. #547
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    in the context of the discussion we were having, it indicates that the 600 dollars was meant to also help people pay for insurance they were losing on top of other benefits. That when you factor this into the equation a lot of people in the bucket of people "making more money by not working" they really are not making more. And if they are a lot of them are making substancially less than the report stated.

    sure the benefits might suck, but they still have to replace the insurance they lost that their employer was picking up part of the cost, they now have to pick up the full cost.



    its quite substancial when you get cancer or COVID-19 and end up in the hospital for a few weeks....
    Is it? Because when my friend had surgery they covered 90%. She had to still pay 12k.

  8. #548
    Banned Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommunismWillWin View Post
    Not even a mention of Alan Turing?
    Alan Turing voted 21st. At least now we know what statue must to be topled by a goon swarm so that the idea of statues being toppled is a bad thing gets into your head

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Is it? Because when my friend had surgery they covered 90%. She had to still pay 12k.
    whelp i will one up your specific one related example.

    my mother died of breast cancer that then moved into her lymph nodes and eventually lungs and brain. She survived it once before now had to fight it all over again. She lost but.....

    she had to pay 8k out of her pocket that year.
    She did not have to pay over a million dollars worth of services out of her pocket.



    Insurance is insurance. it sure does not seem worth it with a fender bender, but when your car gets in a huge wreck.....man are you lucky you had it
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  10. #550
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    whelp i will one up your specific one related example.

    my mother died of breast cancer that then moved into her lymph nodes and eventually lungs and brain. She survived it once before now had to fight it all over again. She lost but.....

    she had to pay 8k out of her pocket that year.
    She did not have to pay over a million dollars worth of services out of her pocket.



    Insurance is insurance. it sure does not seem worth it with a fender bender, but when your car gets in a huge wreck.....man are you lucky you had it
    What the fuck is your argument?!!!

    we are talking about people making 47k or less right? consider that these people have barely any money and people who made 25k were spending about 7k a year already on insurance and premiums do you think throwing in another bill helps?

    "hey they only had to pay 8k instead of a million"

    Does it matter when neither is feasible at the time?

    The overwhelming majority of jobs lost were shows in this lower bracket. My friend didn't have to pay 120k, just 12k! In the brackets we are talking about that is 12k on top so we are looking at 19k... on a 25kish salary...

    as I said HAVING BENEFITS DOESN'T MATTER IT IS ABOUT HOW SUBSTANTIAL THOSE BENEFITS ARE many lower income people pay a huge amount for premiums and such, and then another huge amount if someone happens

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Why don't ask Britons? Oh wait they have already been asked

    "Ask those people, he mostly didn't fuck over? What a totally reliable source. Bengali and Anzacs were at those times direct subjects of the british crown, Churchill considered disposeable. Since the political landscape however shifted, when BBC conducted the poll, pretty sure, they weren't asked in the first place.

    Also, the famine of Bengal was heavily censored in concurrent british press, since it completely would have destroyed public image of the government and Churchill.
    Last edited by josykay; 2020-06-25 at 09:42 AM.

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by josykay View Post
    "Ask those people, he mostly didn't fuck over? What a totally reliable source. Bengali and Anzacs were at those times direct subjects of the british crown, Churchill considered desposeable. Since they political landscape however shifted, when BBC conducted the poll, pretty sure, they weren't asked in the first place.

    Also, the famine of Bengal was heavily censored in concurrent british press, since it completely would have destroyed public image of the government and churchull.
    And yet when they speak out now the argument will often be ''why didn't you say anything X years ago'' or ''why are you being PC''.

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Not trying to turn this into a WWII thread, the point is more that he was an objective failure at pretty much everything he touched, and always managed to spin it in a way that made himself look good.
    Winston Churchill has made mistakes. But a lot of your complaints has nothing to do with mistakes but the fact that Germany was industrially and manpower wise far more powerful than Britain. Against a superior enemy you will lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Sorry, rant. The fundamental point that is relevant to this thread is that there are many legitimate reasons why not everyone views Winston Churchill as a national hero. While I do not believe statues of him should be torn down, his historical character really needs to be revisiting with the blinders of wartime propaganda removed.
    This is still the man that kept Britain in the war despite knowing his position was all but hopeless. And this ultimately culminated in the destruction of Nazi Germany.

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    Winston Churchill has made mistakes. But a lot of your complaints has nothing to do with mistakes but the fact that Germany was industrially and manpower wise far more powerful than Britain. Against a superior enemy you will lose.



    This is still the man that kept Britain in the war despite knowing his position was all but hopeless. And this ultimately culminated in the destruction of Nazi Germany.
    Germany winning against the UK is... a fantasy nothing less. The Battle of Britain caused severe losses for the Luftwaffe, Germany could never really recover. The naval power of Germany was... well pretty much second rate. Italy fielded more, and arguably even better ships, which was more hindered by individual stupidity and faulty quality control. Germany was never in the position to invade the UK. Even more so, after the losses at Norway... 1 Heavy Cruiser down, 4 remaining. 2 Light cruisers down, 4 remaining, approximatly half the destroyer forces down.... And we still have the issue, that Germany had only 1, battleship, that could effectivly fight against british battleships and battlecruisers. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau could not with insufficient armament. You do not get naval supremacy, to be capable for invasion with 1 battleship, 2 "battlecruisers", 4 heavy cruisers, 4 Light cruiers, and some destroyers, against 11 battleships, 3 battlecruisers, 15 Heavy Cruisers 32 Light Cruisers, around 65 destroyers, and 4? if i remember correctly aicraft carrier. No naval supremacy.. no invasion. Insufficient submarine numbers to starve the UK..

    Even after Italy binding some forces in the Mediterranian... not enough.

  15. #555
    Banned Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by josykay View Post
    Also, the famine of Bengal was heavily censored in concurrent british press, since it completely would have destroyed public image of the government and Churchill.
    You mean like that time when it became widely known in 1943 and Churchill stayed in office for 2 years an then got re eleced in 1951 for 4 more years? What a destruction.

    However, I'd respect if Bengali nation is willing to remove all the Churchill statues present in Bengal. Statue in Britain, though, is up to Britons to decide, good thing they have already said it's not going anywhere. Australians seem to be fine with theirs as well

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    What the fuck is your argument?!!!
    You are the one who went off on the tangent and said....

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Stopped here because I do not agree with this conclusion, being that the jobs lost were mostly lower paid jobs, while unemployment for higher tier jobs was quite low. Service type jobs and customer facing jobs were those that went.

    These people often do not have benefits, or substantial benefits. Many people within this tier forgo benefits because they can't actually afford even the partial payments required of them.
    We were talking about how the extra $600 a week was being compared only to salary and not salary and benefits.
    You discounted my argument and math.

    I went on to give math on how much difference the 600 really was once you factored in benefits.

    You then went on about insurance not being substantial which is ridiculous because any insurance product is substantial


    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post

    we are talking about people making 47k or less right? consider that these people have barely any money and people who made 25k were spending about 7k a year already on insurance and premiums do you think throwing in another bill helps?

    "hey they only had to pay 8k instead of a million"

    Does it matter when neither is feasible at the time?

    The overwhelming majority of jobs lost were shows in this lower bracket. My friend didn't have to pay 120k, just 12k! In the brackets we are talking about that is 12k on top so we are looking at 19k... on a 25kish salary...
    Paying off 8k vs paying off a million? that sure sounds, oh I don't know substantial?

    What are the odds of your friend paying off 12k over time vs having to pay 120k off over time? Would you say, oh I don't know....substantially higher odds against the 120k at that salary.

    [/QUOTE]

    as I said HAVING BENEFITS DOESN'T MATTER IT IS ABOUT HOW SUBSTANTIAL THOSE BENEFITS ARE many lower income people pay a huge amount for premiums and such, and then another huge amount if someone happens[/QUOTE]

    really no shit and how much "huger" is the amount if they have ZERO insurance.

    The whole discussion before you took this tangent was how the 600 dollars was also to pay for the employers portion of the health insurance premium the person was no longer going to receive. the 600 was not meant to just replace salary and give people bonuses.

    at the time my mom was making 31k a year and she was the only income as my father was disabled and was yet to be approved for disability or early Medicare. Again insurance might have cost her a substantial portion of her income. She might have owed 8k before insurance kicked in, but in the end my father did not end up with a MILLION FUCKING DOLLAR BILL he would not have been able to pay off thus losing his home, his car, his retirement (what little he had), etc etc etc

    Sure sounds fucking wonderfully substantial.
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  17. #557
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    You mean like that time when it became widely known in 1943 and Churchill stayed in office for 2 years an then got re eleced in 1951 for 4 more years? What a destruction.

    However, I'd respect if Bengali nation is willing to remove all the Churchill statues present in Bengal. Statue in Britain, though, is up to Britons to decide, good thing they have already said it's not going anywhere. Australians seem to be fine with theirs as well
    That they are okay with honoring genocidal asshats is not really my problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Alan Turing voted 21st. At least now we know what statue must to be topled by a goon swarm so that the idea of statues being toppled is a bad thing gets into your head
    Voting for racist genocidal asshat over one of the most important figures in WWII by huge margin, just brit things

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Just like i said, they topple statues not because they actually have anything in mind, but because these are bad whitey.
    e
    And other paranoid jokes you can tell yourself.
    Communism will win.

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by josykay View Post
    Germany winning against the UK is... a fantasy nothing less. The Battle of Britain caused severe losses for the Luftwaffe. Germany could never really recover.
    The Germans produced a total of 95 k airplanes during the war. They lost 2 k airplanes during the BOB with the RAF losing 1.1 K. A victory for the RAF but ultimately if Germany persisted Britain would have been defeated. In fact the Germans were so convinced that Britain was a spent force that they didn't even bother securing the British Isles before Barbarossa. And they were right however the American war machine that showed up after 1942 was anything but spend

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CommunismWillWin View Post
    That they are okay with honoring genocidal asshats is not really my problem.
    A rather absurd notion coming from a communist.

  19. #559
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post

    A rather absurd notion coming from a communist.
    Ill gladly wait to see where I ever expressed any support for any genocidal twat.
    Communism will win.

  20. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Is it? Because when my friend had surgery they covered 90%. She had to still pay 12k.
    Over a 100k seems substantial...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CommunismWillWin View Post
    Ill gladly wait to see where I ever expressed any support for any genocidal twat.
    A communist, but claim that it’s not the bad part of communism? The confederates and supporters of genocidal twats, are doing the same. Because, they are not claiming to support genocidal parts either, just like you are.
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