I’m against false idols of worship. Soo... yeah.
I’m against false idols of worship. Soo... yeah.
Milli Vanilli, Bigger than Elvis
But, there were plenty of images. I guess they should have kept up all those, as well as the swastikas... right?
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Well, he asked you, so what exactly did you mean by it? Considering we've seen the exact same rhetoric so many times before, it's easy to make obvious assumptions. Feel free to be as clear as possible.
I think it is an interesting area, and more nuanced than people want it to be.
There can be many reasons why someone is celebrated and remembered. Many historical characters did great things, but also terrible things. I don't think the good deeds wash away the bad, nor the bad the good. I don't have a problem with people wanting to acknowledge the bad that people have done. How best to do this is something that needs honest debate, but that hasn't happened and isn't happening on a large scale.
On one hand you get people who vehemently defend symbols, unwilling to acknowledge why people might have a problem with them, holding them in sacred regard. They only acknowledge the good the person has done. On the other hand you get others who want to rip them down, only acknowledging the bad that they have done. I think on the more extremes there is an unwillingness to talk, because they don't believe there is anything to talk about. One side doesn't get why there is a problem with certain figures, the other can't get why others might want to keep a symbol, or acknowledge that some people find them important.
The binning of certain statues, in principle I don't have an issue with, I think it is fair to look back at the symbols present and ask if this is what we want in this day and age. However I don't like it when the mob gets to unilaterally decide on the issue (or any issue for that matter). I'd like to see government and institutions take peoples protestations more seriously, perhaps giving a vote. That they generally don't often makes people feel that they need to take unilateral action. That won't please everyone, some will demand they come down no matter what, screw what anyone else thinks, and others will decide they stay no matter what, screw what anyone else thinks. Opinions and judgements are only valid if they agree with me.
History is complex, our relationship with it and our symbols can be complex. I think there should be an effort to get consensus. I don't think ceding the decision to an angry mob (be they ripping them down, or trying to defend them), ceding ground to black and white thinking, is going to produce a good solution. If a majority decide that actually, statues and symbols need updating, then I wouldn't have an issue with them being replaced/moved, but I'd want it to be because of a consensus and not done through fear of the mob. The same with symbols remaining.
I fear this will come down to which extreme can scream the loudest. The ones on the right refuse to acknowledge anything bad about their history, empire was good etc. Often in ignorance of some of the atrocities committed in former colonies, sometimes in indifference to them. The past was glorious, and we should go back. On the left, they tend to only see the bad in their society and never the good, they will have no problem telling you why the UK, or somewhere else in Europe is the worst place in the world, and also have no problem telling you why Saudi Arabia is amazing, China is great, and the Soviet Union was just misunderstood. We shouldn't be seeking answers or progress from any of them.
So you're saying historical figures shouldn't be analyzed critically as time goes on? Removing a statue of a person doesn't mean they're erased from the history books. Their written work and place in the canon of history doesn't change if their bust is no longer on display in a park.
- Christopher HitchensPopulists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
If the lesson becomes not having statues of powerful people in public places (where they can look down on the plebaians) because they are all vile then have at it
If this is to be something arbitrary that ignores how awful some are while remembering how awful others are then it is pointless, an action that is going to be repeated again and again in the future
That might be obvious if the statue was of Trump but noone ages well (Trump least of all but still)
You know what’s really strange in all this... I keep suggesting that these statues get replaced, with artistic depictions of accomplishments these men are responsible for. Not a single person saying that these statues represent history, have yet to respond stating what statues representing their accomplishments would look like.
I am assuming that their accomplishments are more important than the idolatry it self... figure that’s a safe assumption?
Edit: So... as some might know, Robert E Lee spent his post war career arguing against “radicals” and preaching unity. I tried to find a quote of his, that would represent that part of his life, as a possible monument. But... holly shit... I can’t even find anything to grab out of context. His unifying screed was how black people are too dumb to vote. So... ah... I can guess why some people are having troubles with representation of these accomplishments...
Edit 2: Oh and just to highlight the audacity... the dumb fuck lost his right to vote, because he lead an insurgents... which I guess objectively made him too dumb to vote, based on his actions... not color of his skin...
Last edited by Felya; 2020-06-18 at 07:25 PM.
Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi
What? Quick question... why is it when I search Wikipedia for Stalingrad and Tsaritsyn I get directed to Volgograd? What about Petrograd and Leningrad, directing to Saint Petersburg? Was Lenin or Stalin, some sort of invaders, that didn’t just take down statues... but, renamed cities?
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The fun part is that Russia has been white washing horrors of Stalin. As in, mass graves found in recent history, blamed on the west and US, instead of the obvious. They even ran mini series focusing on Stalin the noble, if harsh, father. If nothing else, Russia is proof, no mater the statues you take down or cities you rename... people will still “elect” a Putin.
Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi
Confederate statues were kept for a century and a half to remember that they too were people. Just like you and I.
If you tear down statues because "they are evil" according to your post-modern 21st century philosophy, don't cry when your statue and the statues of your heroes are torn down decades later because "you're evil" according to the people of the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...itol%20grounds.
A casual look through shows that almost all of these statues and monuments were erected in the 20th century, well after the Civil War. It has nothing to do about their "humanity" or that they were "people", these were monuments "celebrating" those traitors, and were often used to intimidate communities of color.
You don't see monuments to Hitler to remind us that he was a "person" in Germany.
I got no problems with that. I'll be old, or dead, so it won't bother me. Move all that shit to museums, where it can consistently be presented in historical context.