Which faction would you consider "more canon" for the Pandaren?

[Claymore]

I know people hate on Pandaren (and I think that expansion was definitely overbearing with them), but generally speaking I actually think they're a cool enough race. Enough so that I actually bothered leveling one back in MoP (as a Monk, obviously).

But looking back, I kind of wonder which faction is "more canon" for them?

Obviously, they canonically exist in both factions. But in terms of story, culture, and overall "feel", I think it's interesting to consider which "makes more sense" from a Lore perspective?

On one hand, for *whatever* reason, Blizzard has retconned the Horde to value individual cultures a little more. They're certainly the more primitive and spiritual of the two factions, so there's a compelling reason a Pandaren might be more inclined to side with the Horde.

However, if you look at the state of the Horde during the time of MoP, it was anything *but* inviting. Garrosh went full-blown insane villain, and in Siege of Orgrimmar, we even saw Ji Firepaw being tortured. If you look at that from a storytelling perspective, it basically tells the story that Ji Firepaw chose to trust the Horde despite the warnings of his peers, and they wound up being guilty of everything they were accused of. Thematically, it's a story that basically says "don't trust outsiders, because they'll harm and exploit you". Also, the Horde have far more in common with the Mogu than the Pandaren; the former sees conflict as an inevitability and opportunity to test oneself, whereas the latter believe conflict to be a last-resort and the result of imbalance.

By contrast, the Alliance has virtually *zero* connection to the Pandaren, in any way whatsoever. The Alliance doesn't appear to particularly value the Pandaren, they just sort of... *exist*.

The one other potentially-relevant factor being the two other races that join the Horde vs. Alliance conflict: the Jinyu and the Hozen.

I'll go on record saying I despise both of these races. But at the very least, the Hozen seem good for a laugh, whereas I personally find the Jinyu to be damn-near insufferable. It probably doesn't help that as an Alliance player, your introduction to them has you power-leveling a bunch of random Jinyu, to which I simply ask "why the fuck are you guys prepared for ANY sort of conflict?!" (I never did the Horde side quests, so unsure how this compares).

All in all... I would probably say that "canonically", a Pandaren would probably be *more* likely to join the Horde.

But I'm curious what you guys think? What's your perspective?

[Stormdash]

It never felt coherent or rational or justified that they split up at all, or aligned at all, or continued to want first hand involved after MOP at all.

[Stelio Kontos]

Their inclusion in the Horde, at least as it was under Herr Garrosh, always felt really forced. It didn't feel right.

[callipygoustp]

Similar to Vulpera, never really saw them as a playable race at all. A source for meat for a cooking recipe? Sure. Playable race? No. I can't be the only person whose salivary glands start acting up every time I see a Pandaren or Vulpera.

[Aucald]

I'm in the minority of people who actually find the Houjin/Tushui split for the Pandaren to be a nice touch to the overall lore, and makes a goodly amount of sense for a group who approach the world fundamentally differently than the other Horde and Alliance races. Shadows of the Horde does a lot to explain this philosophical divide better than the in-game context, where the twin ideologies aren't so much codified religions as they are interpersonal philosophies that are applied on both a macro and micro scale (to overall personalities as well as individual actions).

Tushui is the philosophy of contemplation and reaction, stressing studying an event from all angles before acting and working to the benefit of the community over the self; it is very resonant with the values that the Alliance tends to espouse or exhibit. Houjin is the philosophy of impulsiveness and action, where withholding aid or delaying action due to the maze of inner moralizing or woolgathering is seen as the greater evil; a very Horde mentality. Pandaren who favor Houjin over Tushui seem like a great fit for the Horde's ethos, whereas those who are partial to Tushui over Houjin will find a staunch ally and easy place in the ranks of the Alliance.

[Lightning-]

I think they don't fit either side. They kinda are their own independent thing.

[Flurryfang]

After what happen at SoO, i think it would make sense, that the Pandaren would go to the Alliance.

The Horde did a number on Pandaria and the afterwards made the alliance out as the good guys, especially now that Anduin is the leader.

But the thing with the pandaren is, that they are tecnically not a race faction, they are individuels. Where the Nightborne, Mechagnomes and other allied races were a faction before them joining the H/A, the Pandaren are just travellers either follwoing Ji Firepaw or Aysa Cloudsinger out into the world.

[Aucald]

However I don't think it made sense for the Huojin to stick around with how Garrosh dealt with Pandaria, and to answer OP's question then I find the Tushui at present to be the most believable Pandaren faction.

I kind of agree, given what happened with Garrosh and Ji. Although the Houjin working with the rebels to re-take the Horde from Garrosh could well lead to a fire-forged friendship that allowed the Houjin to stick it out with the Horde once Garrosh has been deposed. I thought the same about the Tushui until I read Shadows of the Horde and the way the Houjin philosophy works in Pandaren society - that novel does quite a lot to make the Houjin more realistic than the game itself does.

[Saltysquidoon]

Given the events of MoP and what happened to Ji and Slyvanas' later insanity, it makes very little sense that the panadern would have any formal relations with the horde.

That said Pandaren are very individualistic and have basically no centralised authority really so it's defiantly possible individual pandaren would want to work with their buddies in the horde.

I know its easier for blizzard to just lump PC panadren into factions and have their leaders stand in the back of cut scenes and just never talk about or involve them in anything. But it would have been pretty easy to write horde pandaren as Houjin who personally want to work with the horde (like Chen) as opposed to having any formal faction.

[Icecat]

During MoP, especially in the endgame patch, the thought of Horde Pandaren was amusing... The faction was falling apart from the inside and literally overtly posed a threat to their race and homeland. Ji Firepaw and ostensibly the other Horde Pandaren were naive or deeply flawed in how the Horde really embodied their Houjin mentality. It was um... a product of bad Blizzard writing.

Following MoP, it seems like the Pandaren really are mostly independent. I like it. I wish many of the Allied Races were as well.

[Rend Blackhand]

Chen Stormstout was basically a horde hero in WC3 and that's stuck in my mind now.

[Varodoc]

You're wrong. The Alliance do have relationship with the pandaren. Chen was a friend of the dwarves and often spent time in Ironforge during his travels.

[ClassicPeon]

The pandaren faction

[Razion]

I've always kind of seen them as Horde, but the Horde has just always treated Pandaren really badly especially ever since their inclusion as a playable race. I always thought that if Pandaren had been less cute, more slim, jacked, muscle-bound, that the Horde would have welcomed the Pandaren in a heart-beat - but the Horde as a player community could never get over the 'cutesy visual' they seemed to carry with them into the Horde. They treated them so badly Ji was basically butchered in Orgrimmar during Garrosh's reign. I saw this as very sad, because Chen had a long history of friendship and adventure and fighting with Rokhan and Rexxar in WC3, and abilities like Storm Earth & Fire, and Fire Breath, all kind of point to shamanism (Celestials as Wild Gods, even now, with Chi as the essence of the Spirit of Life tying the Monk class to these aspects even more now). Pandaren having shaman from day one, Pandaren not having Paladins, a panda or bear like humanoid basically being a token mongrel or beast like race that is so typical of the Horde, the orc Ratchet quest that further ties it all together, and things like the Panda on Illidan's glaives basically being removed later, and heck Pandaren underwear is even a very Horde Red.

The Pandaren have stayed neutral despite the Zandalari inclusion to the Horde, and despite what they did to Ji, and Ji even now sits on the Horde player's ship in Zandalar so the Pandaren don't seem against their inclusion at all and are more than willing to make peace and let bygones be bygones. So maybe the Pandaren would be able to get over the Mogu's inclusion, too. It would probably take the authority of someone like Chen to vouch for the Mogu who were joining the Horde though for those doubtful to listen to reason. But the Pandaren are a pretty spiritual and chill people at heart, so I don't think it's beyond them to learn to put aside their differences - the enslavement of the Mogu was a long, long time ago, and the Wandering Isle Pandaren are especially removed from it so there's probably even more of a hope for peace - but still, it seems like something that would need to be addressed. But this probably still wouldn't make Horde players like Pandaren unless they got a model update that brought them more in line with what the Horde wants out of their races - basically, to be more savage. In an ideal world, Pandaren would be jacked and the Horde would also be able to get Mogu at the same time and the Mogu's inclusion would be recommended on the authority of Chen Stormstout, which no doubt many Pandaren would respect. That's, honestly, just kind of what I would want to see personally. I want the Horde to like the Pandaren because of their history with the Horde and for them to embrace it and to fight for them and to like their inclusion - it's just sad that the Pandaren didn't hit the visual right the first time they were introduced with a more bad-ass samurai kind of vibe that maybe Horde players were maybe hoping for.

As far as Alliance angles go, frankly I see that potential in Li Li - people theorize about her being old enough to marry Anduin - but frankly she could go either way as she loves her Uncle Chen a whole lot so maybe she'd end up following him to the Horde at least initially if he made a more permanent choice (the Horde may especially be struggling in the wake of what Sylvannas did, so Chen may feel like he has to help, especially if old champions like Rexxar and Rokhan ask for help). And while I like Aysa and Ji a lot and wished they'd get more attention, it's also pretty clear and obvious that Chen and Li Li are a lot more iconic and recognizable to most players and Chen is a big part of that.

Part of me likes the Huojin/Tushui split and while I'd wish they would have been Horde because of the history with Chen, and while I wish they would be visually more what the Horde wants in a playable race, it doesn't frankly seem all that likely. It just seems like the more business and convenient route that would be taken nowadays would be that they would go Alliance so that the Mogu on Horde would be more easily justified and also because a Pandaren model revamp would be considered perhaps too revolutionary even if it's what players want. As a player it doesn't feel right for all that Chen lore to basically be disregarded when it was so formative and so iconic and influential - which, admittedly, may be better for Ji in terms of how he's been treated. But in terms of what Ji believes in, Ji still holds those Horde values so it would be hard to see him in an Alliance capacity at all but I could see Aysa coming over to the Horde to keep Ji safe because he would be so stubborn.

As a player, I'd rather see Pandaren Horde, but I fear the Horde would resent their full exclusivity if they didn't get a model update to fit their tastes especially if it meant the Mogu were excluded from them also.

[Mirishka]

Similar to Vulpera, never really saw them as a playable race at all. A source for meat for a cooking recipe? Sure. Playable race? No. I can't be the only person whose salivary glands start acting up every time I see a Pandaren or Vulpera.

Pandaren, the other other white meat!

[Kyphael]

While logically, it seems they would be more at home with The Alliance, who are notoriously less known to incite and engage in conflict than The Horde, my Pandaren main is Horde just because I like to go against what seems most logical, and the two Pandaren factions are philosophically different enough. If anything, I wish more races were like The Pandaren, which you can choose a side. Blood Elves made a mountain of sense until we got Void Elves and the new customization options revealed. I could have seen Dark Iron Dwarves go Horde. Night Elves could very easily also be neutral and go either way, but I guess we got that in Nightborne. In my opinion, the only races that should strictly never cross faction lines are the staple, Orcs & Humans. Even Tauren and Trolls in the Alliance could make sense thanks to the Cenarion Circle.