I think wow needs to remove alternative progression or fundamentally change it.

[Krakan]

I find it hard to imagine anybody wanting to play WoW for Rated PVP or Mythic raiding and then not be ready to put in a month or 2 for working towards. If you into that content, you are already kinda up for doing some dedicated play, which will require time investment. Its rarely, that i hear mythic raiders complain about doing too much easy content, unless if it is mindless farming for like Titanforge or if they are competative mythic players, who have to do everything to get an edge.

So i think its an non-issue OP is bringing up. If you want to play any content in WoW, its requirements will properly match what you are ready to give. Blizzard have become pretty good at making catch-up mechanics, so most content is open after not that long.

I mean... I never did for 10 years if you count the highest tier of earlier expacs as mythic...

This whole invest a ton of time thing didnt really start till legion... from were I stand your the strange one... if you are good at a game why would you not expect to do the harder modes?

[Flurryfang]

I mean... I never did for 10 years if you count the highest tier of earlier expacs as mythic...

This whole invest a ton of time thing didnt really start till legion... from were I stand your the strange one... if you are good at a game why would you not expect to do the harder modes?

Because if you are good at the game, you have properly invested time to practice, and in WoW, practice often equals time investment into the game.

And if you are talking about the early expansions, like Vanilla --> Cata highest raid level, you would have been required to farm to do that. You might have been a lucky outlier, but nobody could just jump into later raids in Vanilla or TBC, or Heroic in Wrath/Cata after only a week or 2 at max lvl. You need gear and gear takes time, its just that simple and that is how it always have been. And from my experience, it worked for quite a long time. See a guy in a lot of high level gear, he also tend to be a good player, who had the skillz to interact with the harder modes. It was a wierd day, if i meet a guy who was really good, yet could not get into the harder modes of the game.

[PenguinChan]

I feel like you'd be just as happy if Blizzard made it so the alternative progression mechanics were more free-form and less restrictive / time consuming. In which case the alternative progression isn't your problem at all - but the methods involved. Which I feel like is the major issue with most of the alternative mechanics and progressions Blizzard implements - usually the base systems are nice (To some greater or lesser extent) but always hindered by either poor gating mechanics or balance decisions.

[Juther]

In pvp its way way too much. You have all the above grinds, which you can't get with just pvp, bgs practically useless, no catchup gear that isn't pve, and any decent gear that's from pvp takes rating (so practically useless if you're not already high rated). Its pointless and nonsensical gating which should be removed. Wod and mop model where easily farmed honor from bgs gave solid pvp only catchup gear, and weekly capped conquest from rated (but not rating limited) gave top pvp gear, was pretty much perfect. No reason not to return to this.

/cheersalotofcheers

[Krakan]

Because if you are good at the game, you have properly invested time to practice, and in WoW, practice often equals time investment into the game.

And if you are talking about the early expansions, like Vanilla --> Cata highest raid level, you would have been required to farm to do that. You might have been a lucky outlier, but nobody could just jump into later raids in Vanilla or TBC, or Heroic in Wrath/Cata after only a week or 2 at max lvl. You need gear and gear takes time, its just that simple and that is how it always have been. And from my experience, it worked for quite a long time. See a guy in a lot of high level gear, he also tend to be a good player, who had the skillz to interact with the harder modes. It was a wierd day, if i meet a guy who was really good, yet could not get into the harder modes of the game.

That is kind of my point...

I never found gear to be such the barrier people make it out to be. I always found it easy to navigate catchup mechanics to make a " good enough " set for early heroic/ mythic and just worked from there.

Sure you can't walk up and clear all of mythic the first time you step in but you can crush a few early bosses to help you snowball with coins.

[Flurryfang]

That is kind of my point...

I never found gear to be such the barrier people make it out to be. I always found it easy to navigate catchup mechanics to make a " good enough " set for early heroic/ mythic and just worked from there.

Sure you can't walk up and clear all of mythic the first time you step in but you can crush a few early bosses to help you snowball with coins.

If you don't find gear a barrier, i wonder why you think the alternative progression is a barrier.

The entire azerite system can be put into a competative position within a week or 2. You won't be bared from doing mythic or rated PVP based upon your Azerite level, especially not late in expansions. Blizzard puts in enough catch-up for you to have a good AP level at the same time as your gear gets good enough to get into the higher end raiding.

[Krakan]

If you don't find gear a barrier, i wonder why you think the alternative progression is a barrier.

The entire azerite system can be put into a competative position within a week or 2. You won't be bared from doing mythic or rated PVP based upon your Azerite level, especially not late in expansions. Blizzard puts in enough catch-up for you to have a good AP level at the same time as your gear gets good enough to get into the higher end raiding.

Unlike gear it's a hindrance you can't really skip and its effects depending on class and spec can be felt far more then any gear drop.

AP is extremely powerful early on but it does become more and more trivial as time goes on. I would argue it a pointless system that serves no function but to time gate. There isn't any reason I can see to not simply bake ap into a character instantly upon level cap rather then make it a grind.

Essences are a massive pain in the ass and simply shouldn't exist.... almost all of then are tied to time gates.

The new/old relic/soulbind system in shadow lands also looks like another rng grind pinata though there is a slim chance it will be reworked.

I think I'm mostly just tired of how desperate the game is to force me into content I couldn't give a rat's ass about to let me into the content I enjoyed that used to come free of these requirements.

[Unholyground]

Torghast is going to be yet another way to progress which is awesome. The more meaningful less RNG ways to get gear and power the better.

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Unlike gear it's a hindrance you can't really skip and its effects depending on class and spec can be felt far more then any gear drop.

AP is extremely powerful early on but it does become more and more trivial as time goes on. I would argue it a pointless system that serves no function but to time gate. There isn't any reason I can see to not simply bake ap into a character instantly upon level cap rather then make it a grind.

Essences are a massive pain in the ass and simply shouldn't exist.... almost all of then are tied to time gates.

The new/old relic/soulbind system in shadow lands also looks like another rng grind pinata though there is a slim chance it will be reworked.

I think I'm mostly just tired of how desperate the game is to force me into content I couldn't give a rat's ass about to let me into the content I enjoyed that used to come free of these requirements.

Ya, the soulbind gems should be craft-able and or reusable to some degree.

[Glorious Leader]

I think I'm mostly just tired of how desperate the game is to force me into content I couldn't give a rat's ass about to let me into the content I enjoyed that used to come free of these requirements.

This is the problem with your view. You aren't forced and the game isn't designed to force you into anything. The reward exists to provide meaningful progression for players outside of the raid. If they made it not function in the raid that would just be gutting the reward for no reason other than your lack of self control.

[Flurryfang]

Unlike gear it's a hindrance you can't really skip and its effects depending on class and spec can be felt far more then any gear drop.

AP is extremely powerful early on but it does become more and more trivial as time goes on. I would argue it a pointless system that serves no function but to time gate. There isn't any reason I can see to not simply bake ap into a character instantly upon level cap rather then make it a grind.

Essences are a massive pain in the ass and simply shouldn't exist.... almost all of then are tied to time gates.

The new/old relic/soulbind system in shadow lands also looks like another rng grind pinata though there is a slim chance it will be reworked.

I think I'm mostly just tired of how desperate the game is to force me into content I couldn't give a rat's ass about to let me into the content I enjoyed that used to come free of these requirements.

I agree, that it is a hindrance, but i will not say, that it is big one. AP matters, but only until you are a certain point from the current "max" or very early in an expansion, so its effect on your ability to enter high content is in my opinion small.

AP is a small time gate, but its primary purpose is actually be a background objective and motivator. It grants additional purpose to most of your actions in game and gives you a bar to fill up as you play. I don't even think that Blizzard thinks of it as a time gating thing, as it does not hold you back from entering raids or from reaching some thresholds. So i think you are overemphasizing the time gating in AP. And essences? Essences should just not be connected to AP, i agree that.

I get what you are tired off here, i meet the exact same experience in Legion, where i could not give dam about it and yet it felt super important.
The thing is, it has changed in BFA. AP is just not that important when you have gotten past the current early levels. When you get to a point, where farming feels nessesary to gain more levels, the increase is just not that high and is far from a top 5 thing, that would hold you back from joining mythic, especially now. If you level a character now and try to gear them up, before you have a full gear set to enter mythic, your AP level will be more than adequate for that content.

[Kralljin]

Yes, I mean Mythic (The premiere raid mode - as the other difficulties don't really offer much in terms of long term, patch-length lifecycles - The N Gear is outpaced and made worthless by things such as a weekly quest reward, and doesn't fit into the difficulty required to get bodies and commit that amount of time when compared to even a mid-low tier M+ key).

You're just highlighting that due to the overabundance of gear sources, lower raid difficulties have become irrelevant and Mythic is the sole exception because it sits above them.
You're not solving the actual core issue with your proposed solution.

If you want to see Raiding (in general) as the pinnacle of gearing (you know, similiar to Classic), then every game mode (Barring High end PvP maybe) needs to sit below raiding.
Issue is, you'd then just reinstate what has generally become known as "raid or die".

It's a room getting flooded with water and your solution is not to drain the water, but add ladders that people can reach the ceiling.

What I personally want to see (And why Classic is still so successful despite its easy difficulty)

Reducing the success down to its raid difficulty is shortsighted at best.

There are much more differences between Classic and Retail than the difficulty of Mythic Raiding, the primary one being that it's very heavy on the MMO and RPG aspects.
By your logic, any person that actually enjoys difficult content on Retail should abhorr Classic, yet any *decent* guild on Classic has a bunch of Raiders with a hardcore background.

Added benefit: It obliterates Parse Culture, as every time the buff increased it would change the overall top parses. I enjoy parsing, but I still think this would be a beneficial change, and a way for them to address a complaint many people not at the top have had with the game (Parsing being toxic).

Now that's just your own pet issue.

Parsing isn't even a thing outside of organized raiding and in there it is pretty much a side activity for most guilds.
If people want to compete with other, then let them, if you dislike that, then join a guild that doesn't adjust their strats for parsing.

This strategy worked well in ICC and didn't diminish the world first guild kills, while allowing mid-tier guilds to complete the content and feel a sense of completion that has been missing from the game for a very long time.

I generally disagree with any of that, a game should not become easier because you wait, a game should become easier because you acquire more power to overcome it.

Like seriously, your solution is bendover backwards, instead of solving underlying issues (such as the overabundance of "minimal effort" gear sources), you just want to lower ceiling.


If you want to take inspiration from Classic, you need to change much more than just "less difficulties", especially because the reality is that Blizzard has doubled down on "multiple difficulties" since Legion.

M+, Visions and now Torghast are pointing towards even more difficulties, not fewer.
By lowering the bar, you just make the game easier, not necessarily better.

[Krakan]

This is the problem with your view. You aren't forced and the game isn't designed to force you into anything. The reward exists to provide meaningful progression for players outside of the raid. If they made it not function in the raid that would just be gutting the reward for no reason other than your lack of self control.

If that is the case have their influenced restricted to outside of raids as well. Just as I'm sure you wouldn't want pathfinder tied to getting a cutting edge I have no desire for your game mode to intrude on mine.

[Glorious Leader]

If that is the case have their influenced restricted to outside of raids as well. Just as I'm sure you wouldn't want pathfinder tied to getting a cutting edge I have no desire for your game mode to intrude on mine.

I don't want pathfinder period. Having said that, I already suggested a means by which your favorite game mode (presumably mythic raids) would be immune from literally any other concern in the game. You disapproved. It makes me think that your concern is not actually anything other than other people having nice things.

[Krakan]

I agree, that it is a hindrance, but i will not say, that it is big one. AP matters, but only until you are a certain point from the current "max" or very early in an expansion, so its effect on your ability to enter high content is in my opinion small.

AP is a small time gate, but its primary purpose is actually be a background objective and motivator. It grants additional purpose to most of your actions in game and gives you a bar to fill up as you play. I don't even think that Blizzard thinks of it as a time gating thing, as it does not hold you back from entering raids or from reaching some thresholds. So i think you are overemphasizing the time gating in AP. And essences? Essences should just not be connected to AP, i agree that.

I get what you are tired off here, i meet the exact same experience in Legion, where i could not give dam about it and yet it felt super important.
The thing is, it has changed in BFA. AP is just not that important when you have gotten past the current early levels. When you get to a point, where farming feels nessesary to gain more levels, the increase is just not that high and is far from a top 5 thing, that would hold you back from joining mythic, especially now. If you level a character now and try to gear them up, before you have a full gear set to enter mythic, your AP level will be more than adequate for that content.

I agree somewhat with ap. I still find it laborious at the start of an expansion as capping it can involve a lot of dull repetative content but it is more a inconvinve then a true obstacle I admit.

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I don't want pathfinder period. Having said that, I already suggested a means by which your favorite game mode (presumably mythic raids) would be immune from literally any other concern in the game. You disapproved. It makes me think that your concern is not actually anything other than other people having nice things.

I pointed out the inherent flaws with it... if you make a single gear level across an entire mode it would not have the longevity needed for a large group activity.

I simply provided an example of how you dislike the notion of other game modes holding rewards you value while pointing out your hypocrisy in wanting to have rewards other modes covet.

[Flurryfang]

I agree somewhat with ap. I still find it laborious at the start of an expansion as capping it can involve a lot of dull repetative content but it is more a inconvinve then a true obstacle I admit.

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I pointed out the inherent flaws with it... if you make a single gear level across an entire mode it would not have the longevity needed for a large group activity.

I simply provided an example of how you dislike the notion of other game modes holding rewards you value while pointing out your hypocrisy in wanting to have rewards other modes covet.

When it comes to the start of an expansion, i completly agree with you. Since Legion, Blizzard have put most of what is fun about the early game, into these AP systems. That they then hold it back from you and push you towards farming content as soon as you can, is really annoying. Its in my opinion the most negative thing about the AP systems, that they end up gating whats fun about an expansion, when you first hit the new max lvl.

I just wished, they would make the AP system much more of a Paragon system, like in D3 and just give the classes more fun things to play around with from the get-go. New/added talents/spells are truly missed.

[Glorious Leader]

I agree somewhat with ap. I still find it laborious at the start of an expansion as capping it can involve a lot of dull repetative content but it is more a inconvinve then a true obstacle I admit.

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I pointed out the inherent flaws with it... if you make a single gear level across an entire mode it would not have the longevity needed for a large group activity.

I simply provided an example of how you dislike the notion of other game modes holding rewards you value while pointing out your hypocrisy in wanting to have rewards other modes covet.

Since I hadnt actually made a stance on pathfinder (completely offtopic) until you posted that it's very strange for you to call me a hypocrit based on nothing and just lends credence to the fact that you aren't arguing in good faith. Furthermore I object to pathfinder as a whole. All current requirements for it are shitty, you should buy flying with gold at max level. So the argument that I'm a hypocrite because I would theoretically object to pathfinder requiring cutting edge is entirely invented by you whole cloth.

My understanding is that the people who do mythic raids primarily do it for the challenge and not the reward. I think the longevity argument is bullshit. Especially considering they did this in Mists for challenge dungeons and people did it for as long as it had the cosmetic items. I mean you're basically arguing that without some form of character progression people won't do that content. Well okay now you know why we have AA. Asking for them to gut that so you don't feel burdened is a shitty proposition. You want to be immunized from the rest of the game. That's fine, stay in your bubble. Just don't ask for others to have a shittier game play experience for it.

[dcc626]

Torghast is going to be yet another way to progress which is awesome. The more meaningful less RNG ways to get gear and power the better.

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Ya, the soulbind gems should be craft-able and or reusable to some degree.

i dont think we will be getting anything other than legendary mats and cosmetics from torghast. the lack of rng forging/corruptions makes it necessary to limit the number of places to actually get upgrades. they have talked about lower the amount of loot from raiding, and i wouldnt be surprised to see something similar from m+. the pvp and m+ boxes are now the same box as well. if they dont put a limit on gear sources people will get geared too quickly. they already mentioned "Probably not a lot of equippable gear that has an item level in Torghast. It's mostly for Legendaries and Freed Souls"

[Unholyground]

i dont think we will be getting anything other than legendary mats and cosmetics from torghast. the lack of rng forging/corruptions makes it necessary to limit the number of places to actually get upgrades. they have talked about lower the amount of loot from raiding, and i wouldnt be surprised to see something similar from m+. the pvp and m+ boxes are now the same box as well. if they dont put a limit on gear sources people will get geared too quickly. they already mentioned "Probably not a lot of equippable gear that has an item level in Torghast. It's mostly for Legendaries and Freed Souls"

Legendaries will be the most important gear in Shadowlands hands down so that is good in the end I think. Would be nice if they were account bound though as some will very likely be useful to multiple specs like in Legion.

[Wheeler]

You're just highlighting that due to the overabundance of gear sources, lower raid difficulties have become irrelevant and Mythic is the sole exception because it sits above them.
You're not solving the actual core issue with your proposed solution.

If you want to see Raiding (in general) as the pinnacle of gearing (you know, similiar to Classic), then every game mode (Barring High end PvP maybe) needs to sit below raiding.
Issue is, you'd then just reinstate what has generally become known as "raid or die".

It's a room getting flooded with water and your solution is not to drain the water, but add ladders that people can reach the ceiling.

Reducing the success down to its raid difficulty is shortsighted at best.

There are much more differences between Classic and Retail than the difficulty of Mythic Raiding, the primary one being that it's very heavy on the MMO and RPG aspects.
By your logic, any person that actually enjoys difficult content on Retail should abhorr Classic, yet any *decent* guild on Classic has a bunch of Raiders with a hardcore background.

Now that's just your own pet issue.

Parsing isn't even a thing outside of organized raiding and in there it is pretty much a side activity for most guilds.
If people want to compete with other, then let them, if you dislike that, then join a guild that doesn't adjust their strats for parsing.

I generally disagree with any of that, a game should not become easier because you wait, a game should become easier because you acquire more power to overcome it.

Like seriously, your solution is bendover backwards, instead of solving underlying issues (such as the overabundance of "minimal effort" gear sources), you just want to lower ceiling.


If you want to take inspiration from Classic, you need to change much more than just "less difficulties", especially because the reality is that Blizzard has doubled down on "multiple difficulties" since Legion.

M+, Visions and now Torghast are pointing towards even more difficulties, not fewer.
By lowering the bar, you just make the game easier, not necessarily better.

Easier and Better/Worse aren't mutually exclusive, though. One of the "easiest" forms of content in the game is likely a major driving force for it's continuation (Transmog). Likely because it provides a simple "roll dice, get item" skinner box that used to exist in the game.

Also, there are a WHOLE heck of a lot of people replying to my post here to tell me how I'm wrong. That's great and all - but how about telling me what any of YOU guys would propose? Whole lotta "AKSHUALLY" in here, not a whole lot of actual ideas. I'm genuinely curious what you think would be a good option in regards to the games progression paths, and how they would fit into the game.

[Krakan]

Since I hadnt actually made a stance on pathfinder (completely offtopic) until you posted that it's very strange for you to call me a hypocrit based on nothing and just lends credence to the fact that you aren't arguing in good faith. Furthermore I object to pathfinder as a whole. All current requirements for it are shitty, you should buy flying with gold at max level. So the argument that I'm a hypocrite because I would theoretically object to pathfinder requiring cutting edge is entirely invented by you whole cloth.

My understanding is that the people who do mythic raids primarily do it for the challenge and not the reward. I think the longevity argument is bullshit. Especially considering they did this in Mists for challenge dungeons and people did it for as long as it had the cosmetic items. I mean you're basically arguing that without some form of character progression people won't do that content. Well okay now you know why we have AA. Asking for them to gut that so you don't feel burdened is a shitty proposition. You want to be immunized from the rest of the game. That's fine, stay in your bubble. Just don't ask for others to have a shittier game play experience for it.

People sold runs in mop they didn't keep going back bar a extreme minority of a already small minority.

It isn't arguing in bad faith either. You have no desire for key systems to be locked behind clearing mythic just as I have no desire for systems needed for mythic being outside of mythic.