Has player feedback ever made the game worse?

[Paperfox]

Whether they failed or not is not the argument. They listened to players and that is the argument. Just because they didn't implement your changes didn't mean they didn't listen. They listened to the players and implemented what they could. Staying angry about it after all this time doesn't seem healthy.

Don't forget player housing. At one point everybody really, really wanted player housing. I believe the farm in Pandaria was a test of the system for it. People still wanted it, so we got the Draenor garrison.

Does Blizz listen to player feedback? Absolutely the do.
Do they get it right? Not necessarily. Ever heard of that saying: You can please some of the people all the time, but you cannot please all of the people all the time.

If everybody keeps criticizing them for not getting it right, then WoW will be like movies. We complain that there are no original movies, and then when there are, everybody complains about them. So we get movies based on an existing franchise that is very much based on a formula, in other words: boring.

[Erous]

Yes, when the made ret paladins warriors.

[Krakan]

Why bother mentioning Runescape in the first place? WoW and Runescape have pretty much nothing in common, cater to entirely different demographics and this idea that Runescape handles player feedback better than any other game because they poll their fucking community is actually brain dead when you consider how different most games are from Runescape.

Relax and have some tea there is no need to be aggressive.

I was pointing out how and why player feedback works by giving an example of how and why it works well compared to when it does not and explaining why.

[Kehego]

I don't know if I'd call Azerite gear "listening to feedback." It seems like it was a compromise between the two loudest praises and criticisms of Legion. The praise being, "We love Artifact weapons!" and the criticism, "but the early RNG of Legiondaries was shit." I think the developers envisioned Azerite gear playing out much differently than it did once it was in the hands of players and everything that happened over the course of BfA was Blizzard trying to perfect an inherently flawed concept.

azerite was infinitely better than tier, though.

You just have the lazy bads complaining that it doesn't change with spec when... why would you even want that other than to just be a lazy degenerate?

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Don't forget player housing. At one point everybody really, really wanted player housing. I believe the farm in Pandaria was a test of the system for it. People still wanted it, so we got the Draenor garrison.

Does Blizz listen to player feedback? Absolutely the do.
Do they get it right? Not necessarily. Ever heard of that saying: You can please some of the people all the time, but you cannot please all of the people all the time.

If everybody keeps criticizing them for not getting it right, then WoW will be like movies. We complain that there are no original movies, and then when there are, everybody complains about them. So we get movies based on an existing franchise that is very much based on a formula, in other words: boring.

a very tiny vocal roleplay community wanted player housing.
a fucking house to have tea parties in would never fit with the lore, so they gave you a customizable base of operations for your campaign. execution aside, that's a pretty obvious indicator that they do listen to feedback, and what people bawl for.

[Relapses]

Relax and have some tea there is no need to be aggressive.

I was pointing out how and why player feedback works by giving an example of how and why it works well compared to when it does not and explaining why.

I apologize for the aggressive tone; I see Runescape floated as an example of "good game development" quite frequently on this forum and I am certain that if Blizzard were to ever even attempt something like this that it would spell the end of WoW as we know it.

[Milfshaked]

I will agree that Cata heroic dungeons were pretty much fine -- CC and controlling where your damage goes is not too much to ask for -- but 10-man Heroic raids absolutely needed nerfs. Some of those raid encounters were straight up broken for 10-man.

Heroic Valiona and Theralion had damage numbers and spawn rates tuned for 25-man raids, making it impossible pre-fix. Heroic Magmaw was similarly tuned for 25-man utility/composition. Heroic Maloriak was mainly only killable because it didn't have an enrage timer, since the adds had 25-man heroic health levels (which was later fixed, of course). Heroic Halfus had his interruptable cast reduced in frequency because 10-man groups didn't always have enough interrupts. Heroic Conclave of Wind was just fucking hilariously stupid on 10-man -- totally designed for 25-man utility/composition. Heroic Al'Akir was not an enjoyable fight on 10-man. Heroic Twilight Ascendant Council was easily the most frustrating and stupid fight I've ever had, and that was with its final tuning. I'd have rather smashed my face against Heroic 25-man LK before the raid-wide buff and first kill than spend another second against the Twilight Ascendant Council.

Not sure I agree with all of these. Valiona and Theralion was for sure broken, but the rest?

Magmaw was completely fine in 10-man. Halfus was also mostly fine unless you had a very weird comp. Especially with how powerful disc priests were in 10 man heroic, it was almost easier than 25 man.

Conclave was kinda stupid, mostly because of the bosses bugging out on tank swaps. Al'Akir however was a lot easier in 10 man than 25 man.

I dont actually remember how 10 man hc twilight council was. I remember we were stuck a long time there.

[Saltysquidoon]

azerite was infinitely better than tier, though.

Azerite has the potential to be infinitely better than tier.

There are traits like SS that change how you play and make you use talents you might not otherwise use, that's great.

The problem is most of the best traits are "After you use *ability* gain 900 *your best stat*". The fact these traits exist and are normally good if not the best option is bullshit.

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Halfus was also mostly fine unless you had a very weird comp.

Halfus was literally impossible on 10man Heroic early (before he was nerfed) because some drake comps (and the drake rotation was different on different server farms for some stupid reason) were just not doable because you didn't have enough bodies. He's pretty infamously the example for why 10 and 25 being "separate but equal" didn't work.

[Kehego]

Azerite has the potential to be infinitely better than tier.

There are traits like SS that change how you play and make you use talents you might not otherwise use, that's great.

The problem is most of the best traits are "After you use *ability* gain 900 *your best stat*". The fact these traits exist and are normally good if not the best option is bullshit.

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Halfus was literally impossible on 10man Heroic early (before he was nerfed) because some drake comps (and the drake rotation was different on different server farms for some stupid reason) were just not doable because you didn't have enough bodies. He's pretty infamously the example for why 10 and 25 being "separate but equal" didn't work.

No, better than tier.

We forgetting that half the time tier bonuses were just x% to an ability, 25% of the time was a throughput loss and the previous tier was better (look at nighthold resto/bear druid vs ToS resto/bear druid) and the rest of the time slightly better.

So tier had the potential to be good, when the reality was tier was lackluster especially compared to what azerite gives you.

[Saltysquidoon]

No, better than tier.

Here's the problem with absolutionist statements, they're very easy to disprove.

Natural harmony is BiS for Ele and it's literally the most boring thing ever.

Compare that to the Tier 21 two and four piece. The 2 piece especially actually impacts your gameplay at all.

[Kehego]

Here's the problem with absolutionist statements, they're very easy to disprove.

Natural harmony is BiS for Ele and it's literally the most boring thing ever.

Compare that to the Tier 21 two and four piece. The 2 piece especially actually impacts your gameplay at all.

Firstly, a 15% proc to overload doesn't impact your gameplay at all, it's just a chance on diceroll to do extra damage.

Secondly, I like how you think that "impacting your gameplay" makes something better or worse. It's actually stupid.
You wanna know what was more powerful than that combo, though?

https://www.wowhead.com/item=137050/...wisting-nether

Which is the same damn thing as natural harmony. Its the reason why natural harmony exists. Because it was the best. Funny how that works.

Eye of the twisting nether/natural harmony are also bis for enhancement, and it does change the way you play because with 3x natural harmony you run hailstorm, and you don't without either EotTN or NH.
Azerite traits to change your gameplay do exist, also. Lava shock is 100% a thing. The terrible lava lash one that you run with hot hand is still a thing.

Fun is neither quantifiable nor objective. Say "i had more fun" not "x was better"
Because it wasn't.



so anyway.
Azerite is better than tier.

[Belloc]

Magmaw was completely fine in 10-man.

As far as I recall, no one killed it pre-nerf. Heroic, obviously.

[Saltysquidoon]

Fun is neither quantifiable nor objective. Say "i had more fun" not "x was better"

azerite was infinitely better than tier, though.

Nani?

I like how you think that "impacting your gameplay" makes something better or worse. It's actually stupid.

I thought you were discussing game design. Turns out you were discussing disagreeing with yourself my mistake.

[Kehego]

Nani?


I thought you were discussing game design. Turns out you were discussing disagreeing with yourself my mistake.

Lol, no

You "had more fun" in antorus and I get that.

let's get the facts straight

1) 1 a 15% chance to overload is completely passive and doesn't affect your gameplay
2) the 2pc is literally a talent
3) NH is eye of the twisting nether, which was the bis legendary at the time
4) you liking something doesn't make it objectively better. There were several tier sets for specs that were objectively bad, when you were forced to either a) respec b) take the dps hit.

I can tell that your reading comprehension is poor though, because the first quote directly addresses your claim, and the second quote was made as a general statement.

Azerite in its current iteration is objectively better than tier.

[Krakan]

I apologize for the aggressive tone; I see Runescape floated as an example of "good game development" quite frequently on this forum and I am certain that if Blizzard were to ever even attempt something like this that it would spell the end of WoW as we know it.

It would be disastrous for blizzard to try. Runescape development is the ideal model of development ... but and this is the fly in the ointment. It relies on the fact that runescape has a level of unity in its playerbase wow has never come close to having.

If you polled blizzards playerbase pvpers ,raiders, and for a lack of a better term "casuals" would constantly try to tear each others throats out. Hell sub groups within those groups would try to lobby to destroy each other. For better or worse wow's playerbase is much like a space hulk in warhammer 40k.

A bunch of shipwrecked playerbases crashed and merged into each other forming a massive amalgamation that is constantly trying to tear itself apart.

[Sageless]

All of bfa.
Turned azerite gear into targeted hear.
Added h warfronts
Got rid of TF
Made the game easier for alts.

These are just the big ones. This has got to be the most casual pandered expansion that there has ever been.

You're kidding right? Those aren't examples of Blizzard listening and doing a good job of implementing.

Azerite gear was shit. It's implementation is still terrible with basically every spec having one mandatory trait throughout the entire expansion (which Blizzard tried to put on the azerite gear from Nyalotha, but failed to understand their own class design so put on the wrong ones). They don't swap with specs, which is just stupid/lazy/incompetent. The fact they made it slightly less terrible does not mean they implemented a good change. At best you can say they didn't make it worse.

Herioc warfronts, I believe the player feedback was to make warfronts fun and challenging or just remove them completely. IMO they still failed on all fronts there.

Getting rid of TF, but replacing it with an even worse replacement. The feedback was that TF was too RNG, so implementing a more RNG system does not seem like listening and doing a good job implementing something.

Easier for alts, what are you smoking? After poking them with sticks to make the game more accessible for alts they fail at any implementation they have done by keeping artificial barriers in there.

It's like there is someone that enjoys people being miserable screening any changes, ensuring any of them are done in such a way to suck any happiness out of the additions. It's either that or the intern that hasn't leveled his first character yet is in charge of making these changes.

[Kehego]

You're kidding right? Those aren't examples of Blizzard listening and doing a good job of implementing.

Azerite gear was shit. It's implementation is still terrible with basically every spec having one mandatory trait throughout the entire expansion (which Blizzard tried to put on the azerite gear from Nyalotha, but failed to understand their own class design so put on the wrong ones). They don't swap with specs, which is just stupid/lazy/incompetent. The fact they made it slightly less terrible does not mean they implemented a good change. At best you can say they didn't make it worse.

Herioc warfronts, I believe the player feedback was to make warfronts fun and challenging or just remove them completely. IMO they still failed on all fronts there.

Getting rid of TF, but replacing it with an even worse replacement. The feedback was that TF was too RNG, so implementing a more RNG system does not seem like listening and doing a good job implementing something.

Easier for alts, what are you smoking? After poking them with sticks to make the game more accessible for alts they fail at any implementation they have done by keeping artificial barriers in there.

It's like there is someone that enjoys people being miserable screening any changes, ensuring any of them are done in such a way to suck any happiness out of the additions. It's either that or the intern that hasn't leveled his first character yet is in charge of making these changes.

lol show me a class where the nyalotha azerite isn't the best.

you tried.

also, the whole existence of vendors for all of the shit you complain about. I mean obviously you're gonna want everything for free but the game doesnt work like that

[Sageless]

Azerite in its current iteration is objectively better than tier.

The only possible reason to think azerite is better than tier was that you forget that when we had tier gear we were playing a complete class.
This meant we didn't need azerite gear to fix the shell of the class that we got when we started BFA.

And at least with tier gear you had the opportunity to have a change every raid tier. And you could actually use the tier tokens that dropped.
Instead now we have the same azerite traits since 8.1 since there is one that is like 50% better than any of the others, which means a large chunk of the azerite gear you get immediately can get scrapped because that 445 piece with the good trait is better than the 475 without it.

I believe the intent was to have azerite gear be a combination of legion legendaries and the artifact weapon traits, but they kinda forgot we didn't have to regrind those every raid tier.

I just hope they had their fun using all the design ideas i hated this expansion (warfronts, islands, azerite gear, everything related to corruptions, warmode, Dazaralor city design - fucking docks) and not use those in Shadowlands.

[Kehego]

The only possible reason to think azerite is better than tier was that you forget that when we had tier gear we were playing a complete class.
This meant we didn't need azerite gear to fix the shell of the class that we got when we started BFA.

And at least with tier gear you had the opportunity to have a change every raid tier. And you could actually use the tier tokens that dropped.
Instead now we have the same azerite traits since 8.1 since there is one that is like 50% better than any of the others, which means a large chunk of the azerite gear you get immediately can get scrapped because that 445 piece with the good trait is better than the 475 without it.

I believe the intent was to have azerite gear be a combination of legion legendaries and the artifact weapon traits, but they kinda forgot we didn't have to regrind those every raid tier.

I just hope they had their fun using all the design ideas i hated this expansion (warfronts, islands, azerite gear, everything related to corruptions, warmode, Dazaralor city design - fucking docks) and not use those in Shadowlands.

LOL okay

1) you regrind all your gear every tier anyway. you've done this every tier since inception save 1-2 choice items in classic and DST. wtf are you even on
2) the "complete class" arguments are always horseshit because 1) tier doesn't and never has expanded your toolkit and 2) the game is balanced around classes at launch so whatever you feel you don't have is entirely headcanon

[Count Zero]

If fans ran WoW

[DemonDays]

I mean most of the things that are complained about in this community are things that Blizzard did because they listened to community feedback. The start of BFA is a good example of that. At the start of Legion people complained about the AP grind and the good stuff being locked behind it, so BFA's Azerite gear had the strong traits up front and the system was boring. People complained about legendaries so they took them out. Between those two things there was fuck all to do in BFA aside from raidlog. People whined for years about TF so we got corruption.

The harder cata dungeons that made the casuals quit was a result of Blizzard listening to feedback about WLK dungeons being too easy. The train wreck that was WOD alienating those casuals and appealing to nostalgia was a result of Blizzard listening to the community tell them to go back to their roots. Listening to this community has historically not been a great thing. They need to stop trying to please everyone and just stick to their vision of what the game is supposed to be.

Oh fuck.

You know what I forgot that I complained about and gave feedback to Blizzard for?

I really asked them for the ability to RE-GRIND traits I had ALREADY EARNED just because I got a piece of gear that was 5 iLevels higher.

Imagine shoving a new Relic into your Legion Artifact weapon and losing access to a Gold Trait until you earned 4 more AP levels.



What a joke. You fanboys are really reaching now.