Star Wars: John Favreau's Sequel Retcon Rumors [Discussion]

[PaladinSum]

He wanted it because there was a bounty on the droid. So he wanted to collect the bounty. He wanted to stop Rey from collecting it because his entire method of profit relied on being the only source of food for the people trapped on Jakku. They weren't all slaves. They were just people stuck and trying to make a living. In the novels it shows more of the life she had. She lived with a few different scavenger groups before setting off on her own. That isn't slavery.

The First Order has re-education protocols because apparently the brain washing is not 100% effective. It isn't just because they have a plethora of force sensitive people that always break free.

Sorry. The movies do a bad job portraying that she's a vagrant rather than someone purposefully traded away. And the novels do not count. If you have to go outside the movie to make the movie make sense, you failed. That's another major failing of the prequels that applies here.

Then why were people making that argument in the first place? And that just further cements how incompetent the First Order is since Phasma didn't notice the soldier having a panic attack and taking his helmet off needs to be escorted straight to re-education.

[Fantomen]

When Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn speed off like Sonic the Hedgehog;

Luke do a "Force enhancement" then he jump out of the carbonit freezer.

When Anakin and Obi-Wan able to fight literally floating on debris in the middle of a lava field, without burning.

That is more under the rule of cool then a force ability.

It's how Anakin survives multiple limbs being severed, again lying on barely-solid rock at the edge of a red-hot lava channel; that kind of resilience has to be based in the Force somehow.

Vader do parry laserbolt using his hand and take a hit in the sholder from a lightsaber and still standing, and Anakin need emergency surgery and never truly recover and is "more machine then man" after.

I should also point out the insane level of acrobatics the prequels put into Force combat, compared to the OT.

That is more of what can we afford, or do we have the technology to do, Yoda was suposed to train Luke in lightsaber combat in ep 5, but the technology was not there. Look at the Falcon, the ship manuver much better in ep 5 then ep 4, becuse the special effect team have made progress.

[Endus]

That is more under the rule of cool then a force ability.

Dude, you can't take issue with me saying "the Force means they can do whatever's cool because there are no rules", and then take issue with me saying the Force allowed this, because it's just a nonsensical thing they did because it looks cool.

Yes, Star Wars is pulpy adventure boom-pow sci-fi, not hard sci-fi with clear, defined rules, and not philosophical sci-fi, which explores deep and meaningful questions about humanity. That's literally been my argument the whole time.

[Gallahadd]

Or was Anakin and his mother insane for not wanting to be slaves? And why was Rose complaining about slavery if it doesn't matter?

Slavery as a concept matter, obviously. I feel like you're deliberately trying to miss the point here. So I'll state it again, as unambiguously as I can.

Rey didn't try to escape Jakku, because she didn't WANT to leave Jakku. She was perfectly happy where she was, waiting for her parents to return. That's why she didn't try to steal a ship and leave before she met Finn. Because she didn't WANT to leave.

[PaladinSum]

Dude, you can't take issue with me saying "the Force means they can do whatever's cool because there are no rules", and then take issue with me saying the Force allowed this, because it's just a nonsensical thing they did because it looks cool.

Yes, Star Wars is pulpy adventure boom-pow sci-fi, not hard sci-fi with clear, defined rules, and not philosophical sci-fi, which explores deep and meaningful questions about humanity. That's literally been my argument the whole time.

If what was thought to be a force power was actually an error, I think we can blame people not catching fire until convenient on bad writing.

Does Obi-Wan knowing about the Assassin being a shapeshifter some kind of force premonition or bad writing?

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Slavery as a concept matter, obviously. I feel like you're deliberately trying to miss the point here. So I'll state it again, as unambiguously as I can.

Rey didn't try to escape Jakku, because she didn't WANT to leave Jakku. She was perfectly happy where she was, waiting for her parents to return. That's why she didn't try to steal a ship and leave before she met Finn. Because she didn't WANT to leave.

Fine. I apologise. I truly thought she was a slave based on what the movies laid out in front of me.

[Ragedaug]

C > The reason we accept Luke as a pilot and not Rey is how the film establishes the character has piloting skills.

I just wanted to highlight this from your post. This is the underlying problem with Rey. The film never establishes why she should be the best at whatever she does.

In some cases it feels she gets Adam West's Bat Utility Belt treatment. How do we escape this predicament? a) pull the item out the bat utility belt that is perfectly designed to counter this predicament or b) give Rey whatever expert level skills the situation needs.

In the case of Batman, it's a joke mocking the absurdity of the notion. The Star Wars writers don't have that excuse.

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Dude, you can't take issue with me saying "the Force means they can do whatever's cool because there are no rules", and then take issue with me saying the Force allowed this, because it's just a nonsensical thing they did because it looks cool.

Yes, Star Wars is pulpy adventure boom-pow sci-fi, not hard sci-fi with clear, defined rules, and not philosophical sci-fi, which explores deep and meaningful questions about humanity. That's literally been my argument the whole time.

This is why I don't understand half the time why you are arguing. The people are you are arguing against are saying the exact same thing you have in bold. The difference, you like the pulpy adventure boom-pow sci-fi whereas that's their complaint, as they would prefer Star Wars be hard sci-fi with clear, defined rules with some philosophical sci-fi mixed in.

[Endus]

This is why I don't understand half the time why you are arguing. The people are you are arguing against are saying the exact same thing you have in bold. The difference, you like the pulpy adventure boom-pow sci-fi whereas that's their complaint, as they would prefer Star Wars be hard sci-fi with clear, defined rules with some philosophical sci-fi mixed in.

Because my fundamental point is that what they are really saying is that "they don't like Star Wars". Not "they don't like the new movies", they don't like the entire IP, because the entire IP has always been pulpy adventure boom-pow sci-fi. Lucas explicitly cites pulp sci-fi as his chief inspiration in crafting Star Wars.

If you don't like Star Wars, that's fine. Nobody's saying you have to. Be free, and go enjoy whatever you enjoy.

But some of us do like this bowl of wheaties, and when your only contribution is to piss in every bowl of wheaties you see because you hate wheaties, you're not going to make any friends. Just let people enjoy their breakfast while you go enjoy whatever you like.

Genre distinctions aren't distinctions of quality or value. Identifying Star Wars as pulp does not cheapen it; it has always been pulp. It's arguably the single most impactful pulp science fiction in history. But trying to hold it to rules of an entirely distinct sub-genre, that Star Wars has never held to, that does not make sense. It's pissing in people's wheaties. Because the apparent goal is to try and ruin wheaties for people who like it, even though all they're really disliking is the urine you're pissing into them.

[Krunxx]

pulpy adventure boom-pow sci-fi[/B] whereas that's their complaint, as they would prefer Star Wars be hard sci-fi with clear, defined rules with some philosophical sci-fi mixed in.

This sounds like someone eating an orange then complaining that it didn't taste like an apple........ So coming into a Star Wars thread and arguing that they don't like Star Wars because it is Star Wars and not like another sci fi series they like more is silly.

[PaladinSum]

Because my fundamental point is that what they are really saying is that "they don't like Star Wars". Not "they don't like the new movies", they don't like the entire IP, because the entire IP has always been pulpy adventure boom-pow sci-fi. Lucas explicitly cites pulp sci-fi as his chief inspiration in crafting Star Wars.

If you don't like Star Wars, that's fine. Nobody's saying you have to. Be free, and go enjoy whatever you enjoy.

But some of us do like this bowl of wheaties, and when your only contribution is to piss in every bowl of wheaties you see because you hate wheaties, you're not going to make any friends. Just let people enjoy their breakfast while you go enjoy whatever you like.

Genre distinctions aren't distinctions of quality or value. Identifying Star Wars as pulp does not cheapen it; it has always been pulp. It's arguably the single most impactful pulp science fiction in history. But trying to hold it to rules of an entirely distinct sub-genre, that Star Wars has never held to, that does not make sense. It's pissing in people's wheaties. Because the apparent goal is to try and ruin wheaties for people who like it, even though all they're really disliking is the urine you're pissing into them.

Hmm. No. I like Star Wars. So trying to decide that for me is high tier garbage. But, at least you're not being dishonest and pissing on Star Wars because you hate it yourself.

I mean, you must be since you're in here complaining, right?

[Endus]

Hmm. No. I like Star Wars. So trying to decide that for me is high tier garbage. But, at least you're not being dishonest and pissing on Star Wars because you hate it yourself.

I mean, you must be since you're in here complaining, right?

I'm a writer. Part of that, for me, is being able to examine stories I experience, and determine both what really worked for me to make me enjoy that story, and what really turned me off from it. Star Wars, even the ST, are still way more on the first end of that scale, for me. RoS the least of the three, admittedly, but even so.

Nothing's perfect. Determining how things could have been better is not a statement that what we got was horrible crap that pisses on the legacy of what came before, which seems to be what so many others insist on claiming. Particularly not when the issues they complain about are consistent standards for the entire canon.

Also, that process does not involve expecting the genre of the films to change, shifting from pulp to hard sci-fi, say. Would Ghostbusters be better if it was a straight romantic comedy about a guy and the ghost girl he falls for? Would Indiana Jones films be better if they dealt more realistically with the political machinations of the 1930s and the early Nazi Reich, and less with the woo-woo adventure magic stuff? They'd just be wildly different films, completely unlike what we've actually got.

[PaladinSum]

I'm a writer. Part of that, for me, is being able to examine stories I experience, and determine both what really worked for me to make me enjoy that story, and what really turned me off from it. Star Wars, even the ST, are still way more on the first end of that scale, for me. RoS the least of the three, admittedly, but even so.

Nothing's perfect. Determining how things could have been better is not a statement that what we got was horrible crap that pisses on the legacy of what came before, which seems to be what so many others insist on claiming. Particularly not when the issues they complain about are consistent standards for the entire canon.

Also, that process does not involve expecting the genre of the films to change, shifting from pulp to hard sci-fi, say. Would Ghostbusters be better if it was a straight romantic comedy about a guy and the ghost girl he falls for? Would Indiana Jones films be better if they dealt more realistically with the political machinations of the 1930s and the early Nazi Reich, and less with the woo-woo adventure magic stuff? They'd just be wildly different films, completely unlike what we've actually got.

No, you clearly have these movies because you're here talking about them. You need to accept that about yourself since you feel so confident in your ability to decide that for other people. That's why you throw empty platitudes like "Nothing is perfect" while going "WhAt AbOuT tHe PrEqUeLs" in some desperate attempt to pretend that other movies being bad is a defense for this movie being bad.

And now we've moved on to inane nonsense about genres to excuse making the force a cure all. Incredible stuff. Why do you hate Star Wars?

[Endus]

No, you clearly have these movies because you're here talking about them. You need to accept that about yourself since you feel so confident in your ability to decide that for other people. That's why you throw empty platitudes like "Nothing is perfect" while going "WhAt AbOuT tHe PrEqUeLs" in some desperate attempt to pretend that other movies being bad is a defense for this movie being bad.

And now we've moved on to inane nonsense about genres to excuse making the force a cure all. Incredible stuff. Why do you hate Star Wars?

Since you're not even responding to what I'm saying and are just resorting to empty bait, I'm going not going to bother responding further.

[PaladinSum]

Since you're not even responding to what I'm saying and are just resorting to empty bait, I'm going not going to bother responding further.

No. I responded to what you said. I just also have zero respect for you declaring I hate Star Wars to win an argument and don't expect to get dragged for that kind of arrogance.

But, you do you, boo.

[rhorle]

Sorry. The movies do a bad job portraying that she's a vagrant rather than someone purposefully traded away. And the novels do not count. If you have to go outside the movie to make the movie make sense, you failed. That's another major failing of the prequels that applies here. Then why were people making that argument in the first place? And that just further cements how incompetent the First Order is since Phasma didn't notice the soldier having a panic attack and taking his helmet off needs to be escorted straight to re-education.

Purposefully left does not mean you are a slave. Have you never heard of "Adoption"? The movies portray her just fine as being a non-slave. It is just your interpretation that keeps referencing that. She wasn't required to give scrap, or bb-8, to Plutt. He was buying it from her. She was free to roam where ever she wanted to find scrap including living in her own house that no one knew. She had a speeder. That is far from typical slave portrayal. The novels, based on the screenplay, give further insight but do not change what is shown. A bunch of stuff about star wars is going outside of the movies to further explain or set up things in the movies. That isn't a failing.

Because people make bad arguments? So the measure of competence is noticing 100% if someone goes against orders? You didn't happen to notice how Finn was on the run from the First Order? And they wanted to capture him so they can retrain him? Weird. It is almost as if you only see what you want to see.

[PaladinSum]

Purposefully left does not mean you are a slave. Have you never heard of "Adoption"? The movies portray her just fine as being a non-slave. It is just your interpretation that keeps referencing that. She wasn't required to give scrap, or bb-8, to Plutt. He was buying it from her. She was free to roam where ever she wanted to find scrap including living in her own house that no one knew. She had a speeder. That is far from typical slave portrayal. The novels, based on the screenplay, give further insight but do not change what is shown. A bunch of stuff about star wars is going outside of the movies to further explain or set up things in the movies. That isn't a failing.

Because people make bad arguments? So the measure of competence is noticing 100% if someone goes against orders? You didn't happen to notice how Finn was on the run from the First Order? And they wanted to capture him so they can retrain him? Weird. It is almost as if you only see what you want to see.

I'll say another time then. Apologies.

When your army is built on the backs of kidnapped children, spotting this kind of shit is really important. I'm not ruling it a plot hole that she didn't stop him. I'm ruling it "God, this fascist organization sure is being run sloppily despite being component enough to keep the galaxy in check with minimal resources."

[rhorle]

When your army is built on the backs of kidnapped children, spotting this kind of shit is really important. I'm not ruling it a plot hole that she didn't stop him. I'm ruling it "God, this fascist organization sure is being run sloppily despite being component enough to keep the galaxy in check with minimal resources."

They did spot it. Its why Finn was on the run and being hunted by them. You are calling them sloppy for not predicting the future. That is silly. Watch the movies.

[PaladinSum]

They did spot it. Its why Finn was on the run and being hunted by them. You are calling them sloppy for not predicting the future. That is silly. Watch the movies.

Not really if they let an at risk soldier wander the ship instead of being escorted. They gave him the opportunity to run by not staying on him.

[Gallahadd]

Since you're not even responding to what I'm saying and are just resorting to empty bait, I'm going not going to bother responding further.

He's doing that to me, too. It was driving my up the freakin wall, until I just stopped caring. Some people want to think what they think and refuse to see any other viewpoint. Can't convince them, so don't waste time trying.

[rhorle]

Not really if they let an at risk soldier wander the ship instead of being escorted. They gave him the opportunity to run by not staying on him.

But they still noticed. They knew something was up but not the extent. With in minutes of being back on the ship he is asked to submit his blaster for inspection and report to Phasma's division. You are complaining because they are not omnipotent future seeing mind readers. Is it a bit sloppy? Maybe. Is it over confidence? Sure. The entire first order was built on Arrogance.

I would question more why Poe was left without watchers rather then a storm trooper not being treated as a prisoner just because he seems to be going against training.

[Fayolynn]

This is why I don't understand half the time why you are arguing. The people are you are arguing against are saying the exact same thing you have in bold. The difference, you like the pulpy adventure boom-pow sci-fi whereas that's their complaint, as they would prefer Star Wars be hard sci-fi with clear, defined rules with some philosophical sci-fi mixed in.

I would say the issue is internal consistency and pulpy adventures are not mutually exclusive, you can have both. What is the benefit of not trying to maintain consistency? Especially in a series that is supposed to be telling 1 continuous story. People took issue with Disney dropping all internal consistency in favor of "The force did it".