Shadowlands Sub Rogue : "Hopefully better" then BFA? That is all?

[Kaver]

It was an interesting decision in WoD PvP and all previous expansions. Do I Kidney that DK to buy my healer some space even though I don't have SnD up and I'm not ready to burst into that Kidney Shot ?

Your mileage while executing a scripted rotation and tunneling a boss for 5 minutes may vary.

No one is tunneling bosses in mythic raiding. Killing bosses like Jaina, Azshara and N’zoth requires a lot of skill. I don’t understand why you feel the need to always make snarky comments like that. Why cant you just talk nicely to other people.

[ymirsson]

No one is tunneling bosses in mythic raiding. Killing bosses like Jaina, Azshara and N’zoth requires a lot of skill. I don’t understand why you feel the need to always make snarky comments like that. Why cant you just talk nicely to other people.

Because obviously, any pvp player is vastly superior to any raider. If you find any oversimplification or hyperbole, don't touch it, it might self destruct.

[shoegazing]

No one is tunneling bosses in mythic raiding. Killing bosses like Jaina, Azshara and N’zoth requires a lot of skill. I don’t understand why you feel the need to always make snarky comments like that. Why cant you just talk nicely to other people.

I'll answer your question with another question: why can't you stop advocating for ruining Rogue class design in the 95% of the game that ISN'T mythic raiding???

Subtlety Rogue was a perfect symphony of hit & run restealths to create Find Weakness windows and amazing crowd control. BUT, you can't restealth in PvE and bosses are immune to CC, so rather than play one of the 35 other specs in the game designed for what you want to do, you feel the need to ruin Subtlety Rogue because what the game obviously needed was a 36th spec designed mostly around its damage rotation in PvE content.

And you have the audacity to pretend not to understand what the fuss is about. You know exactly what you are doing.

[niztheundead87]

Imagine believing classic was the pinnacle of design

[shoegazing]

Imagine believing classic was the pinnacle of design

Talking about me?

Imagine thinking the guy talking about Find Weakness windows is talking about Classic, lmao.

[niztheundead87]

Talking about me?

Imagine thinking the guy talking about Find Weakness windows is talking about Classic, lmao.

No wasn't talking about you.not everything is about you.

[Itisamuh]

No wasn't talking about you.not everything is about you.

From what I've observed, if the thread involves sub rogues at all then it's going to end up being about him. He seems to think anyone that doesn't agree with him on everything is either bad at rogue, or so stupid that they simply can't fathom why he's right.

Anyway I've yet to see anything that makes me think the spec is going to be much better than it is now, not that that's saying much. There's still a talent to have an extra shadow dance, so it's very likely that the damage outside of shadow dance will still be horrible. There's been no change to energy costs that I've seen, so it'll still have too much downtime to feel fun. Slice and dice coming back doesn't excite me at all, since it's probably the second most boring finisher rogue ever had after expose armor in my opinion. I'd much rather get gouge and garrote silence back, but no of course it's slice and dice. Rupture over nightblade is an improvement and I'm glad poisons are coming back, but I don't think it'll make much difference. I'd love to be wrong since sub rogue at a few different points has been as much fun as I've ever had on the game, but my expectations aren't nearly as high as my hopes.

[niztheundead87]

From what I've observed, if the thread involves sub rogues at all then it's going to end up being about him. He seems to think anyone that doesn't agree with him on everything is either bad at rogue, or so stupid that they simply can't fathom why he's right.

Anyway I've yet to see anything that makes me think the spec is going to be much better than it is now, not that that's saying much. There's still a talent to have an extra shadow dance, so it's very likely that the damage outside of shadow dance will still be horrible. There's been no change to energy costs that I've seen, so it'll still have too much downtime to feel fun. Slice and dice coming back doesn't excite me at all, since it's probably the second most boring finisher rogue ever had after expose armor in my opinion. I'd much rather get gouge and garrote silence back, but no of course it's slice and dice. Rupture over nightblade is an improvement and I'm glad poisons are coming back, but I don't think it'll make much difference. I'd love to be wrong since sub rogue at a few different points has been as much fun as I've ever had on the game, but my expectations aren't nearly as high as my hopes.

from my minimal testing on alpha/beta all specs seem ok-ish but there is fine tuning to be done , besides the missing talents.as for sub itself while the venthyr covenant ability , slaughter seems the way the choice to go it needs improvements. the ability itself replaces ambush so you can use it again and again withing shadowdance.

the real question is how the soulbinds/conduits will affect the specs and then there are also the legendaries to fill some slots.

[shoegazing]

from my minimal testing on alpha/beta all specs seem ok-ish but there is fine tuning to be done , besides the missing talents.as for sub itself while the venthyr covenant ability , slaughter seems the way the choice to go it needs improvements. the ability itself replaces ambush so you can use it again and again withing shadowdance.

the real question is how the soulbinds/conduits will affect the specs and then there are also the legendaries to fill some slots.

Gouge is still pruned, Find Weakness is a dumb random proc instead of being tied to openers

"the issue is how the soulbinds/conduits will affect the specs and then there are also the legendaries to fill some slots."

???

No wasn't talking about you.not everything is about you.

Who are you talking about then? I don't see anyone in this thread arguing about classic.

[niztheundead87]

Gouge is still pruned, Find Weakness is a dumb random proc instead of being tied to openers

"the issue is how the soulbinds/conduits will affect the specs and then there are also the legendaries to fill some slots."

???



Who are you talking about then? I don't see anyone in this thread arguing about classic.

Every time you Shadowstrike or shuruken storm crits it applies fw what are you even about.



The whole thread is not about you.you don't represent everyone here.

Ok by reading the updated tooltip since beta build it reads , backstab and shuruken Strom crits

[shoegazing]

Do I have to explain everything to you?

Prior to Legion, Find Weakness was a POWERFUL burst window that was applied by openers from Stealth and Dance ONLY.

Now it happens at random times in the rotation, without player control, and has been nerfed from 70%-100% armor penetration down to only 30% armor penetration.

Now instead of PLANNING for Find Weakness, it has become something the player REACTS to, as if Subtlety has ever been a proc-reactive spec design in its entire history.

No more, "my energy is spent and my CCs are on DR, let's run away and get a restealth to that I can open hard again with Find Weakness, a full energy bar, and cross CC".

Now instead, it has become, "let's press by basic builder to fish for Find Weakness so I can Eviscerate. No need to restealth, just keep attacking like every other boring melee in the game, gotta keep it up to generate and spend more energy and combo points and reset my Dance charges faster, zero reason to actually play like a Rogue, just keep running at my enemy like a mindless ape, like every single other goddamn melee in this game, totally homogenized, boring playstyle with the unique features of the Subtlety Rogue TOTALLY REMOVED"

[niztheundead87]

Do I have to explain everything to you?

Prior to Legion, Find Weakness was a POWERFUL burst window that was applied by openers from Stealth and Dance ONLY.

Now it happens at random times in the rotation, without player control, and has been nerfed from 70%-100% armor penetration down to only 30% armor penetration.

Now instead of PLANNING for Find Weakness, it has become something the player REACTS to, as if Subtlety has ever been a proc-reactive spec design in its entire history.

No more, "my energy is spent and my CCs are on DR, let's run away and get a restealth to that I can open hard again with Find Weakness, a full energy bar, and cross CC".

Now instead, it has become, "let's press by basic builder to fish for Find Weakness so I can Eviscerate. No need to restealth, just keep attacking like every other boring melee in the game, gotta keep it up to generate and spend more energy and combo points and reset my Dance charges faster, zero reason to actually play like a Rogue, just keep running at my enemy like a mindless ape, like every single other goddamn melee in this game, totally homogenized, boring playstyle with the unique features of the Subtlety Rogue TOTALLY REMOVED"

Still your own opinion.ypu might like the old design but you don't speak for everyone

Shadowlands is balanced around covenants/ soublinds , conduits and the missing legendaries so you see the tip of the iceberg.

[shoegazing]

Ok by reading the updated tooltip since beta build it reads , backstab and shuruken Strom crits

Last edited by niztheundead87; Today at 11:20 AM.

OK, now that we are on the same page, you should be able to see why this is a GARBAGE design that isn't going to be fixed at all by soulbinds/conduits/legendaries.

- - - Updated - - -

Shadowlands is balanced around covenants/ soublinds , conduits and the missing legendaries so you see the tip of the iceberg.

Let's dissect this statement further.

What do you mean by "balanced" ? Do you mean the correct actual meaning of the word, as in, tuning of character power, or do you mean the incorrect but very common misuse, where "balance" is used in place of "design" and refers to the playstyle?

If you are refering to real balance, you should know that I flat out do not give a damn. If Subtlety is the worst performing spec in the game, but it has a fun mechanical playstyle, I WILL STILL PLAY IT.

If you are actually referring to design and playstyle (which, again, is the wrong meaning of the word "balance" but for some reason I see people confuse these terms constantly...) then how can you say a legendary, soulbind, or conduit, is going to magically fix the broken foundation on which it rests? This also is absolutely foolish.

[niztheundead87]

OK, now that we are on the same page, you should be able to see why this is a GARBAGE design that isn't going to be fixed at all by soulbinds/conduits/legendaries.

Kekw pepehands

Infracted.

[shoegazing]

Kekw pepehands

Trying to be cute because you are realizing that you are in far over your head in this discussion. Just bow out gracefully.

You already admitted you have no idea what's going on when you didn't even realize at first that Backstab procs Find Weakness now. How embarrassing to take such a strong stand when you aren't even familiar with the most basic facts of the design....

[niztheundead87]

Trying to be cute because you are realizing that you are in far over your head in this discussion. Just bow out gracefully.

The funny thing is how you view yourself as the spokesman of everyone here and how you believe you know it all ,hence the memes.

Remember your opinion is your own .

[shoegazing]

The funny thing is how you view yourself as the spokesman of everyone here and how you believe you know it all ,hence the memes.

Remember your opinion is your own .

You literally didn't realize that Backstab procs Find Weakness yet you want to argue about how I must be wrong and it's just my opinion, lmao

Here's a quote for you from the late, great Douglas Adams:

“All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

[niztheundead87]

You literally didn't realize that Backstab procs Find Weakness yet you want to argue about how I must be wrong and it's just my opinion, lmao

unlike you i recognize if i was wrong about anything. unlike you knowitall
you think you know it all but your opinion matters as much as the worst lfr raider does.
your only arguments is add hominems and your own personal view, bunch of nonsense.


kekw pepehands

[Trinkie]

I'm sure Subtlety is ruined for those 3 people playing the spec :^)

[idnn]

It was an interesting decision in WoD PvP and all previous expansions. Do I Kidney that DK to buy my healer some space even though I don't have SnD up and I'm not ready to burst into that Kidney Shot ?

Your mileage while executing a scripted rotation and tunneling a boss for 5 minutes may vary.

this is funny. since Pvp at a higher rating is pretty much a 100% script.