A time skip in 10.0 would make Tinkers possible.

[TheRevenantHero]

Honest question; if the class is enjoyable to play, who cares how popular it is? Are you saying that people won't play the class because it's "unpopular"?

Demon hunter is a lot of fun to play. It's still the least played class in the game. It has the two races that are wildly popular but not many people bother because of the racial restrictions. Now introduce Tinker with only the little and wildly UNpopular races capable of rolling the class. There is not only the restriction that players hate but ALSO they'd be forced to play a race they dislike. Those two factors would destroy the class' chance of being any semblance of popular.

[Ielenia]

And I'm talking about the class, not the random NPCs that share its name. Brewing is an integral part of the Monk class yet non-existent with NPC monks, just like the Mech would be an integral part of a Tinker class, yet absent from NPC Tinkers.

So... "NPCs don't matter, the class does". And yet NPCs somehow do matter when we talk about other fan class concepts. Huh.

And, again: brewing is not an integral part of the monk class. You can remove it entirely from the class and it would still be fully recognizable as a monk. Because what is actually integral to the class is the "oriental style" martial arts they employ.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

There is no "agree to disagree". You're just plain wrong. It's a fact that you use of double-standards and hypocrisy when you argue classes.

So you think a Tinker class should be of all races, and all of them should use Gnome and Goblin mechs and weaponry?

I simply say that a technology class should be open to at least most of the current playable races. If they use GG or generic tech, doesn't matter.

This quote is hilarious since I never advocated for the class to be limited to just two races.

Except you literally did before BfA and mechagnomes and vulpera were announced. And even after BfA, you just added mechagnomes because they're gnomes and vulpera because they use the goblin model skeleton.

[Teriz]

*Points at Monk*

It was enjoyable to play at one point, but due to its lack of popularity, it doesn't get much attention in terms of balancing and patching. Most of its features then get shifted to other classes that are more popular. History rinse repeat.

Would that also go for Warlock and Shaman since they're all within the same general range?

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Demon hunter is a lot of fun to play. It's still the least played class in the game. It has the two races that are wildly popular but not many people bother because of the racial restrictions. Now introduce Tinker with only the little and wildly UNpopular races capable of rolling the class. There is not only the restriction that players hate but ALSO they'd be forced to play a race they dislike. Those two factors would destroy the class' chance of being any semblance of popular.

And yet Monk is also a lower played class and it is available to multiple races, so clearly racial availability isn't the main factor in a class' popularity. Meanwhile, the Druid is only available to four races to beginning WoW players, and its one of the most popular classes in the game.

So we've established that the available races don't matter, so perhaps it's something else?

[TheRevenantHero]

Would that also go for Warlock and Shaman since they're all within the same general range?

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And yet Monk is also a lower played class and it is available to multiple races, so clearly racial availability isn't the main factor in a class' popularity. Meanwhile, the Druid is only available to four races to beginning WoW players, and its one of the most popular classes in the game.

So we've established that the available races don't matter, so perhaps it's something else?

It was already addressed why Monk is unpopular. To reiterate, it's because Blizzard has done no support for the class. It's seen next to no changes since it was first introduced. Every other class in the game has gotten attention OTHER than monk. So people got tired of playing a class that Blizzard basically forgot about.

Druid is popular because it has four fucking specs. There is literally no other reason. It's also one of the classes that frequently gets overtuned. If druid was still Tauren and Nelf only, I highly doubt it would be popular AT ALL.

[Teriz]

So... "NPCs don't matter, the class does". And yet NPCs somehow do matter when we talk about other fan class concepts. Huh.

That's just you taking things out of context.

And, again: brewing is not an integral part of the monk class. You can remove it entirely from the class and it would still be fully recognizable as a monk. Because what is actually integral to the class is the "oriental style" martial arts they employ.

I said "an integral part", not THE integral part.

There is no "agree to disagree". You're just plain wrong. It's a fact that you use of double-standards and hypocrisy when you argue classes.

Yeah, except there's zero double standards in my argument regarding Vulpera.

I simply say that a technology class should be open to at least most of the current playable races. If they use GG or generic tech, doesn't matter.

Gotcha, so every race should utilize the same mechs and the same gear. Pretty much giving the class zero personality or purpose in lore.

Except you literally did before BfA and mechagnomes and vulpera were announced. And even after BfA, you just added mechagnomes because they're gnomes and vulpera because they use the goblin model skeleton.

What's your point? It's not my fault that Blizzard created more races that could be Tinkers.

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It was already addressed why Monk is unpopular. To reiterate, it's because Blizzard has done no support for the class. It's seen next to no changes since it was first introduced. Every other class in the game has gotten attention OTHER than monk. So people got tired of playing a class that Blizzard basically forgot about.

Actually the healing spec of the Monk class has been completely redesigned multiple times, and the Tanking and DPS spec lost the ability to use multiple types of weapons in Legion, and the ability to generate brew charges through performing abilities, so the idea that there's been next to no changes since it was introduced is patently false. I'm willing to bet that MORE people would be playing Monks now if Blizzard had stuck to the original design from MoP.

What makes the Monk class unpopular is that it's an agility based melee class that is simply overwritten by other agility based melee classes. Essentially you roll a Monk if you want to heal. If you don't care about healing, you can roll a Demon Hunter instead. If you want more DPS options, you roll a Rogue instead. The Demon Hunter especially has trounced on the Monk's territory, taking the mantle of the "mobile" melee class that Monks enjoyed from MoP until Legion.

The Tinker class given its unique thematics wouldn't be overwritten by any existing class.

Druid is popular because it has four fucking specs. There is literally no other reason. It's also one of the classes that frequently gets overtuned. If druid was still Tauren and Nelf only, I highly doubt it would be popular AT ALL.

Well that's partially true. The other reason it's popular is because it gets a unique flight, travel, and swim form, and has unique forms that are racially based. So if you choose a Troll Druid, you're going to be able to set yourself apart from other Druids. Not to mention that the class does a really good job of making you feel like a shapeshifter. For example, each tree gets a talent row that allows them to get attributes from the other specs, and there's other talents and abilities that continue that feeling, so it simply adds to the lore and the class' inherent versatility (as you mentioned). There's really no class like it.

Again, the Tinker would be in a similar space, just on the mechanical side.

[Ielenia]

That's just you taking things out of context.

Except it's not out of context at all. It's the absolute truth. Every time someone mentions NPCs in the game when they speak of their class ideas, you focus A LOT on the NPCs, what they do and what they don't, abilities and lack of abilities, etc. But now that the shoe is on the other foot, you say "NPCs don't matter, the class does".

I said "an integral part", not THE integral part.

It's not. Not even "an" integral part. Again: remove the entirety of the 'brewing' thing from all specs... and you still get a class that is fully recognizable as a monk.

Yeah, except there's zero double standards in my argument regarding Vulpera.

Except the "they're short" argument, every other argument you use for them can be applicable to to almost all the other races in the game.

Gotcha, so every race should utilize the same mechs and the same gear. Pretty much giving the class zero personality or purpose in lore.

So you're saying the monk class has "zero personality and/or purpose in lore"?

What's your point? It's not my fault that Blizzard created more races that could be Tinkers.

Your point is that this was your agenda: "gnome/goblin-only class".

[TheRevenantHero]

That's just you taking things out of context.



I said "an integral part", not THE integral part.




Yeah, except there's zero double standards in my argument regarding Vulpera.



Gotcha, so every race should utilize the same mechs and the same gear. Pretty much giving the class zero personality or purpose in lore.



What's your point? It's not my fault that Blizzard created more races that could be Tinkers.

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Actually the healing spec of the Monk class has been completely redesigned multiple times, and the Tanking and DPS spec lost the ability to use multiple types of weapons in Legion, and the ability to generate brew charges through performing abilities, so the idea that there's been next to no changes since it was introduced is patently false. I'm willing to bet that MORE people would be playing Monks now if Blizzard had stuck to the original design from MoP.

What makes the Monk class unpopular is that it's an agility based melee class that is simply overwritten by other agility based melee classes. Essentially you roll a Monk if you want to heal. If you don't care about healing, you can roll a Demon Hunter instead. If you want more DPS options, you roll a Rogue instead. The Demon Hunter especially has trounced on the Monk's territory, taking the mantle of the "mobile" melee class that Monks enjoyed from MoP until Legion.

The Tinker class given its unique thematics wouldn't be overwritten by any existing class.



Well that's partially true. The other reason it's popular is because it gets a unique flight, travel, and swim form, and has unique forms that are racially based. So if you choose a Troll Druid, you're going to be able to set yourself apart from other Druids. Not to mention that the class does a really good job of making you feel like a shapeshifter. For example, each tree gets a talent row that allows them to get attributes from the other specs, and there's other talents and abilities that continue that feeling, so it simply adds to the lore and the class' inherent versatility (as you mentioned). There's really no class like it.

Again, the Tinker would be in a similar space, just on the mechanical side.

Tauren and Nelf druids had different animal forms but it didn't help their popularity at all. The reason druids are popular now is for a few reasons. They're exceptionally strong, they have four specs, and they can be played by 7 races. As for "no class being like them", Balance is just a standard caster. Feral plays JUST like a rogue. Restoration is a run of the mill healer with some unique animations. Bear is just warrior in bear form. So saying they're unique is a flat out lie. I have a druid. They're not wholly unique aside from their animations and animal forms lol. So sure there is "versatility" but all they're doing is copying one of the other existing classes.

And once again, if Tinker was restricted to the unpopular races then it would destroy its popularity and would end up pissing players off. Telling players "You can only play this new class if you roll a race you hate" is absolutely insulting.

Also, you use the goblin Tinker in WC3, Mekkatorque, and Gallywix to back your arguments when it comes to Tinker. So stop fucking lying.

[Swnem]

*Points at Monk*

It was enjoyable to play at one point, but due to its lack of popularity, it doesn't get much attention in terms of balancing and patching. Most of its features then get shifted to other classes that are more popular. History rinse repeat.

O.o wut? I don't know where you get those ideas.
Just now if you watch the mythic+ tournament mistweaver monk is top tier. Pretty much on every team. Just cause it's not super popular, it doesnt mean it isn't good.
Actually, if there is one class that consistently gets the short end of the stick, it's shamans.
Out of curiosity what monk abilities do you think have been moved to other classes?
I get the feeling that you are only talking about windwalker wich has consistently been underwhelming performance wise but it still has a very unique mastery mechanic.
Honestly, i find monks to be one of the strongest and most fun classes in the game. WW is the only spec you could say is weak, but MW and BM are consistently top tier.

[Teriz]

Except it's not out of context at all. It's the absolute truth. Every time someone mentions NPCs in the game when they speak of their class ideas, you focus A LOT on the NPCs, what they do and what they don't, abilities and lack of abilities, etc. But now that the shoe is on the other foot, you say "NPCs don't matter, the class does".

I would need some evidence please.

It's not. Not even "an" integral part. Again: remove the entirety of the 'brewing' thing from all specs... and you still get a class that is fully recognizable as a monk.

Isn't an entire Monk specialization called "Brewmaster"?

Except the "they're short" argument, every other argument you use for them can be applicable to to almost all the other races in the game.

I disagree.

So you're saying the monk class has "zero personality and/or purpose in lore"?

No. Martial Arts is different than Technology, and I wouldn't consider Pandaren culture to lack personality.

Your point is that this was your agenda: "gnome/goblin-only class".

And I stand by that. However, the point is that a Gnome/Goblin only class now encompasses more than just two races.

[Faerillis]

Technology has advanced. Horde with goblin tech, Alliance with gnome tech. Would love to see more modern inventions spread to the main cities, a la Legend of Korra. Orcish motorbikes, human horseless carriages.

And tinkers.

Hey just want to point out that besides a timeskip beyond actually acknowledging that time has progressed since the zones were last updated being a fucking horrible narrative device for an MMO

Time moves FASTER in the Shadowlands than Azeroth. We could be in there for 3 years and it seems that it would be only like a week or so. Thrall and Jaina talk about trying to escape "countless" times since their relatively recent capture; if time in Shadowlands moved slower it would be like we just caught up with them.

I am ALL for a Tinker class. I think they are super well suited to what WoW does best and would involve a nice level of humour actually returning to the game but we already have more than enough grounds for the class already. They would make inarguable sense for Gnomes, Goblins, Lightforged and Mag'har and could be easily expanded out to Orcs and Dwarves and could be stretched to Undead and Humans. They're a good idea for a class (unless you ask an edgelord) but lets go for a sensible way to include them instead of a time skip.

[Teriz]

Tauren and Nelf druids had different animal forms but it didn't help their popularity at all. The reason druids are popular now is for a few reasons. They're exceptionally strong, they have four specs, and they can be played by 7 races. As for "no class being like them", Balance is just a standard caster. Feral plays JUST like a rogue. Restoration is a run of the mill healer with some unique animations. Bear is just warrior in bear form. So saying they're unique is a flat out lie. I have a druid. They're not wholly unique aside from their animations and animal forms lol. So sure there is "versatility" but all they're doing is copying one of the other existing classes.

Rogues can nuke targets from orbit with a Moonbeam, or heal themselves with multiple spells, or given themselves warrior level armor and abilities with a press of a button?

And once again, if Tinker was restricted to the unpopular races then it would destroy its popularity and would end up pissing players off. Telling players "You can only play this new class if you roll a race you hate" is absolutely insulting.

Again, Druids did this for years and people loved it.

[TheRevenantHero]

Rogues can nuke targets from orbit with a Moonbeam, or heal themselves with multiple spells, or given themselves warrior level armor and abilities with a press of a button?



Again, Druids did this for years and people loved it.

I literally said feral is just rogue in cat form. I was breaking down the different forms. Trying reading EVERYTHING I said.

And people definitely did not love it lmfao. Druids only started getting more players when Blizzard made bear tanks not absolute trash in Wrath. I literally never saw a druid that wasn't strictly bear. Then Blizzard opened more races to it and THEN it became much more popular. Notice a trend here?

[Teriz]

I literally said feral is just rogue in cat form. I was breaking down the different forms. Trying reading EVERYTHING I said.

And as I showed that isn't true. They certainly share mechanics, but the Druid aspects completely alter how the spec feels. You really don't feel like a Rogue when you play Feral, you feel like a shape changing cat.

And people definitely did not love it lmfao. Druids only started getting more players when Blizzard made bear tanks not absolute trash in Wrath. I literally never saw a druid that wasn't strictly bear. Then Blizzard opened more races to it and THEN it became much more popular. Notice a trend here?

Again, Druids have been one of the most popular classes in the game for years now, they didn't suddenly become popular in BFA. I have no idea where you're getting your facts from.

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O.o wut? I don't know where you get those ideas.
Just now if you watch the mythic+ tournament mistweaver monk is top tier. Pretty much on every team. Just cause it's not super popular, it doesnt mean it isn't good.
Actually, if there is one class that consistently gets the short end of the stick, it's shamans.
Out of curiosity what monk abilities do you think have been moved to other classes?
I get the feeling that you are only talking about windwalker wich has consistently been underwhelming performance wise but it still has a very unique mastery mechanic.
Honestly, i find monks to be one of the strongest and most fun classes in the game. WW is the only spec you could say is weak, but MW and BM are consistently top tier.

That's what I was thinking. While not popular, people who play Monks thoroughly enjoy them. I know I loved my monk in MoP and WoD.

[TheRevenantHero]

And as I showed that isn't true. They certainly share mechanics, but the Druid aspects completely alter how the spec feels. You really don't feel like a Rogue when you play Feral, you feel like a shape changing cat.



Again, Druids have been one of the most popular classes in the game for years now, they didn't suddenly become popular in BFA. I have no idea where you're getting your facts from.

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That's what I was thinking. While not popular, people who play Monks thoroughly enjoy them. I know I loved my monk in MoP and WoD.

Saying that cat form isn't just a copy of Rogue is a flat out lie. they both play the exact same with combo points and everything.

And as I said, they started gaining popularity when Blizzard made bear stronger in Wrath. Then in Cata their popularity grew when Trolls were allowed to play druids. It's been a slow wind up as the class was made stronger AND added races that could roll as druids. That was my point that you apparently decided to disregard.

And sure there are people who enjoy monk but they are a minority. the only class that is played less than Monk is DH.

[Ielenia]

I would need some evidence please.

And now you're being utterly dishonest. You know exactly what you posted. Basically every class thread that speaks of bards and necromancers, for example, has you focusing on the NPCs people mention.

Isn't an entire Monk specialization called "Brewmaster"?

I'm not talking about specific abilities or spec names. I'm talking about the class concept. You don't need brewing to make the class look and feel like a monk.

I disagree.

Of course you do. You are, of course, wrong. "Flexible lore"? That a BS argument. Vulpera lore is as flexible as any other races'. Uses guns? Many other races also uses guns. Has used technology? So has any other race in this game.

No. Martial Arts is different than Technology, and I wouldn't consider Pandaren culture to lack personality.

It's not different at all in this context. You're moving the goalposts. You said, and I quote (again):

Gotcha, so every race should utilize the same mechs and the same gear. Pretty much giving the class zero personality or purpose in lore.

You said, in no uncertain terms, that having "tinkers" of different classes using the same mechs and gear would "give the class zero personality or purpose in lore". To which I pointed out that your argument means you consider the monk class having "zero personality and/or purpose in life" because it falls into that exact same category you established: "having the same graphics (which is what different mechs are: graphics) and same gear".

[Teriz]

Saying that cat form isn't just a copy of Rogue is a flat out lie. they both play the exact same with combo points and everything.

Yeah, no they don't. I've already explained how they don't.

And as I said, they started gaining popularity when Blizzard made bear stronger in Wrath. Then in Cata their popularity grew when Trolls were allowed to play druids. It's been a slow wind up as the class was made stronger AND added races that could roll as druids. That was my point that you apparently decided to disregard.

You do know that even after the addition of Troll and Worgen Druids in Cataclysm, the Druid class still had the lowest racial options in the game right?

And sure there are people who enjoy monk but they are a minority. the only class that is played less than Monk is DH.

Does that make them less fun to play?

[Swnem]

And as I showed that isn't true. They certainly share mechanics, but the Druid aspects completely alter how the spec feels. You really don't feel like a Rogue when you play Feral, you feel like a shape changing cat.



Again, Druids have been one of the most popular classes in the game for years now, they didn't suddenly become popular in BFA. I have no idea where you're getting your facts from.

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That's what I was thinking. While not popular, people who play Monks thoroughly enjoy them. I know I loved my monk in MoP and WoD.

I think there is a couple of reasons. I think dps specs are the most popular ones. WW is not insanely popular and powerful like something like say a Havok DH is seen as cause it regularly performs well without a great skill requirement. The tanking and healing specs tend to be really strong, but the biggest reason i think the numbers are lower is because monk is one of the classes with highest skill cap.

Tanking with a monk when not knowing what you are doing will get you squashed. In the hands of a good player, you are nigh immortal. This requires the right stats, the right talents and the right tools to monitor your brews.
Compared to say a guardian druid... yeah, you can roll your face in the keyboard and it will be ok. So, i think class complexity plays a part. Many players probably play with the default UI and some classes like monk can't reach full potential in those circunstances.

Really fun class though. It's my favorite healer in the game. Though i enjoy the tanking and dps specs too.
Unlike some people are trying to pass here the class has seen several changes since introduced and brewmaster is being changed in SL to be a bit more acessable (ironskin brew is something that will become passive adressing the situation i described).

Of course though, some fantasies are just more popular than others. But, if that was a deterrant to adding new themes we probably would have a total of 3 classes. Some people are just close minded.

[Ielenia]

Again, Druids did this for years and people loved it.

• Druids were the 3rd least played class back in February 2005.
• Druids were the 3rd least played class back in July 2008.
• Druids became the 5th least played race in December 2010, likely thanks to new races available for them.

As you can see, the druid class weren't popular in the beginning, and only after big changes started being done to them (separating cat and bear; opening more races) that the class began to be more popular.

[TheRevenantHero]

Yeah, no they don't. I've already explained how they don't.



You do know that even after the addition of Troll and Worgen Druids in Cataclysm, the Druid class still had the lowest racial options in the game right?



Does that make them less fun to play?

If you don't think cat druid isn't just like rogue, you've not played either class ever.

It doesn't matter. There were still MORE OPTIONS.

And sure they're fun to play but it's clear that doesn't matter. Players want OPTIONS. Hence why demon hunter is barely played. They're fun as fuck but only available to 2 races. That severely hinders the class.

[Teriz]

And now you're being utterly dishonest. You know exactly what you posted. Basically every class thread that speaks of bards and necromancers, for example, has you focusing on the NPCs people mention.

Like I said, some evidence would be nice.

I'm not talking about specific abilities or spec names. I'm talking about the class concept. You don't need brewing to make the class look and feel like a monk.

So you're saying that a spec called "Brewmaster" can exist without any brewing or brews present?

Of course you do. You are, of course, wrong. "Flexible lore"? That a BS argument. Vulpera lore is as flexible as any other races'. Uses guns? Many other races also uses guns. Has used technology? So has any other race in this game.

A race with 20+ years of lore with multiple established lore figures is as flexible as a brand new race that people don't know much about? Okay...

It's not different at all in this context. You're moving the goalposts. You said, and I quote (again):

You said, in no uncertain terms, that having "tinkers" of different classes using the same mechs and gear would "give the class zero personality or purpose in lore". To which I pointed out that your argument means you consider the monk class having "zero personality and/or purpose in life" because it falls into that exact same category you established: "having the same graphics (which is what different mechs are: graphics) and same gear".

Again, Martial Arts isn't the same as technology. A better examples would be Druids. If the majority of races were Druids and all of them had the exact same model for their animal forms, yes the class would seem very generic, and would lack personality.

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It doesn't matter. There were still MORE OPTIONS.

4 options, which is the same amount of options I'm proposing for the Tinker.

And sure they're fun to play but it's clear that doesn't matter. Players want OPTIONS. Hence why demon hunter is barely played. They're fun as fuck but only available to 2 races. That severely hinders the class.

Isn't DH one of the most popular classes at max level?