The Great Classic Raid Lie

[Mrbleedinggums]

It's funny I stopped playing in WoD but did LFR actually become challenging? I remember being able to tank stuff as a clothy and live, completely disobey raid mechanics, even afk on the fights and still come out victorious.

I'm not sure, I avoid LFR since there are too many people either afk or ignoring the few mechanics there are that inevitably wipes the raid. But it's crazy as a mythic raider to have to try to argue with former guildmates that Classic is not harder than Mythic difficulty raids lol. The main argument is because "threat is a real thing instead of in retail where it's faceroll" when it's just that the developers realized that threat is a stupid way to gauge as a mechanic when you can be much more creative.

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It depends what you mean by “difficult”. Retail is more mechanically complex for sure, but it also requires far less time investment, forethought, etc..
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So you've beaten Mythic bosses in your spare time "far less time investment, forethought, etc.." then? Hell, even heroic until you severely outgear it as a mythic raider but even then you can still slip and end up wiping. Also the current time investment required to get your cloak up, get corruption affixes to your gear, get your essences unlocked, etc is actually still time-consuming despite the catch up mechanics added.

Classic raids were designed back in the day with the assumption that roughly half the raid wouldn't have good internet connection. Sure, you can make the argument that you needed to farm hours upon hours just to grind out a chance at that Nature Resist gear to drop, but I'd argue that's the result of a bad design.

[NineSpine]

I'm not sure, I avoid LFR since there are too many people either afk or ignoring the few mechanics there are that inevitably wipes the raid. But it's crazy as a mythic raider to have to try to argue with former guildmates that Classic is not harder than Mythic difficulty raids lol. The main argument is because "threat is a real thing instead of in retail where it's faceroll" when it's just that the developers realized that threat is a stupid way to gauge as a mechanic when you can be much more creative.

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So you've beaten Mythic bosses in your spare time "far less time investment, forethought, etc.." then? Hell, even heroic until you severely outgear it as a mythic raider but even then you can still slip and end up wiping. Also the current time investment required to get your cloak up, get corruption affixes to your gear, get your essences unlocked, etc is actually still time-consuming despite the catch up mechanics added.

Classic raids were designed back in the day with the assumption that roughly half the raid wouldn't have good internet connection. Sure, you can make the argument that you needed to farm hours upon hours just to grind out a chance at that Nature Resist gear to drop, but I'd argue that's the result of a bad design.

If I log into retail wow right now, I will get a boost to almost max level and then I’ll be max level in a couple of days of casual play. I’ll get catch up gear that will bring me into raids within a couple of more days of casual play.

In classic with the same time investment I’ll probably be level 40.

[Mrbleedinggums]

If I log into retail wow right now, I will get a boost to almost max level and then I’ll be max level in a couple of days of casual play. I’ll get catch up gear that will bring me into raids within a couple of more days of casual play.

In classic with the same time investment I’ll probably be level 40.

Tell you what, if you can get in a heroic or mythic raid (no paying gold boost to get in) within a few days of casual play from a fresh 120, I'll pay for 3 months sub time. Nobody wants to be bothered with leveling alts in Classic, there's a reason why selling dungeon boosts was so lucrative that Blizzard straight up had to nerf it to 30 dungeons/day.

[arkanon]

If I log into retail wow right now, I will get a boost to almost max level and then I’ll be max level in a couple of days of casual play. I’ll get catch up gear that will bring me into raids within a couple of more days of casual play.

In classic with the same time investment I’ll probably be level 40.

And what level will your cloak be? What essences will you be using? How will you farm the corruptions you need? Without these things you won't get into a normal, let alone heroic.

[Chaelexi]

Thank you.

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“More difficult” and “more mechanically complex” aren’t the same thing.

Explain what every individual meant , since you are psychic and know all, by more difficult? you still have not done that. The things you listed did not make it difficult at all. So please explain what everyone else meant by more difficult or just admit that everyone was wrong and move on(like you said)

I am experienced in endgame/heroic/mythic raiding in every expansion. Especially in Vanilla where I was part of the world top 5 push for AQ40 and Naxx. The only mechanically difficult fight in all of a vanilla was Thadius but that will be a joke with raid assist (DBM/Bigwigs/etc). This will be the same in BC all the way up to Sunwell where there are a few mechanically difficult fights but nothing on the level of the last 2-3 expansions.

In reality the only difficult thing in the early WoW was finding skilled players in a player base made up of MMO rookies, casual scrubs, players that were finding where they belong and people who were not willing to learn fights.

[NineSpine]

And what level will your cloak be? What essences will you be using? How will you farm the corruptions you need? Without these things you won't get into a normal, let alone heroic.

Most people take around ten days of played time to reach 60 in classic. You can literally be max level in retail in 1/20th of that. You are delusional.

[arkanon]

Most people take around ten days of played time to reach 60 in classic. You can literally be max level in retail in 1/20th of that. You are delusional.

So your answer is "I refuse to answer your question because the answer proves me wrong".

[NineSpine]

Explain what every individual meant , since you are psychic and know all, by more difficult? you still have not done that. The things you listed did not make it difficult at all. So please explain what everyone else meant by more difficult or just admit that everyone was wrong and move on(like you said)

I am experienced in endgame/heroic/mythic raiding in every expansion. Especially in Vanilla where I was part of the world top 5 push for AQ40 and Naxx. The only mechanically difficult fight in all of a vanilla was Thadius but that will be a joke with raid assist (DBM/Bigwigs/etc). This will be the same in BC all the way up to Sunwell where there are a few mechanically difficult fights but nothing on the level of the last 2-3 expansions.

In reality the only difficult thing in the early WoW was finding skilled players in a player base made up of MMO rookies, casual scrubs, players that were finding where they belong and people who were not willing to learn fights.

It was well explained already. Your childish refusal to engage with the actual points being made shows me that it is a waste of time to engage further.

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So your answer is "I refuse to answer your question because the answer proves me wrong".

If you think it takes ten days of played time to get into a normal raid, you are delusional.

[arkanon]

It was well explained already. Your childish refusal to engage with the actual points being made shows me that it is a waste of time to engage further.

Scroll up. Lololol. Getting angry at people for not engaging the points being made after what you just did two posts up is funny stuff.

This argument is exactly the same every single time. Within 1 page the "classic raids are super duper hard" crowd are suddenly comparing it to LFR and talking about how leveling 1-60 takes longer than 110-120.

[Chaelexi]

If I log into retail wow right now, I will get a boost to almost max level and then I’ll be max level in a couple of days of casual play. I’ll get catch up gear that will bring me into raids within a couple of more days of casual play.

In classic with the same time investment I’ll probably be level 40.

In classic with 4 days played that was power leveled by a couple mage friends that has Perd blade, 3/8 T1, 3/8 T2, some ZG gear and a few other high quality pieces. Oh and he hit 60 on Monday evening. We did this in real vanilla as well back in the day. We power leveled 2 mages that swapped from horde to alliance, powerleveled them in 3 days played, carried them through MC, BWL, AQ40/20, etc and they were Naxx ready in 2 weeks.

[NineSpine]

In classic with 4 days played that was power leveled by a couple mage friends that has Perd blade, 3/8 T1, 3/8 T2, some ZG gear and a few other high quality pieces. Oh and he hit 60 on Monday evening. We did this in real vanilla as well back in the day. We power leveled 2 mages that swapped from horde to alliance, powerleveled them in 3 days played, carried them through MC, BWL, AQ40/20, etc and they were Naxx ready in 2 weeks.

And how long would the equivalent take in retail with friends powering you through? Maybe 10 hours.

[cparle87]

And yet Classic is neither. I'd wager a long boi that anyone claiming that Classic is in any form more difficult or challenging than Retail when it comes to clearing raids hasn't done more than LFR if they've even played in the last 5 years.

Actually with the current situation I'd say they haven't done anything but be invited to alt night normal clears. LFR... hasn't been pretty this expansion.

[RickJamesLich]

I'm not sure, I avoid LFR since there are too many people either afk or ignoring the few mechanics there are that inevitably wipes the raid. But it's crazy as a mythic raider to have to try to argue with former guildmates that Classic is not harder than Mythic difficulty raids lol. The main argument is because "threat is a real thing instead of in retail where it's faceroll" when it's just that the developers realized that threat is a stupid way to gauge as a mechanic when you can be much more creative.

I definitely agree that today's raiding has more interesting mechanics and challenges but I do feel threat was an interesting mechanic that should have a proper place in the game. The biggest examples is with aoe pulls, on classic I have to do some brilliant tactics to actually hold threat on mobs when mages are AOEing. In particular using sweepings strikes with a whirl wind, then slap on the sword and board and start cleaving while getting ready to taunt any mobs that may leak. It kinda of makes the tank decide whether avoidance is more important, or threat generation, while facing bosses that may have enrage timers, I think it could be made an interesting thing.

[WaltherLeopold]

And what level will your cloak be? What essences will you be using? How will you farm the corruptions you need? Without these things you won't get into a normal, let alone heroic.

Aren't you locked behind gates though, for instance you're not allowed to just run visions over, and over, and over until you have what you want, unless things have changed since I last looked, there are a lot of these sorts of gates in retail, unlike classic which lets you, outside of raid reset, allows you to grind what you need/want, which will put you into a position where you can start entering raids.

As such, the permission to put in time is starkly different, grinding a few WQs and then being capped for assaults, is gating you from doing visions for your cloak.

[Chaelexi]

It was well explained already. Your childish refusal to engage with the actual points being made shows me that it is a waste of time to engage further.

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If you think it takes ten days of played time to get into a normal raid, you are delusional.

In classic leveling took me under 5 days played, was in MC clearing the day I hit 60. was leveled in the first 3 weeks of launch. Had live raid schedule, full time job and life to contend with.


What points were made, I read through what you said.....which amounted to nothing. You are wrong admit it and move on or provide an actual rebuttal because what I see is that people said that MC will take weeks to clear, done first week, people said BWL would takes weeks to clear done within hours of launch. We will see the same with AQ40 as players will go in prepared for the NR needed to pass the one wall.

[arkanon]

In classic with 4 days played that was power leveled by a couple mage friends that has Perd blade, 3/8 T1, 3/8 T2, some ZG gear and a few other high quality pieces. Oh and he hit 60 on Monday evening. We did this in real vanilla as well back in the day. We power leveled 2 mages that swapped from horde to alliance, powerleveled them in 3 days played, carried them through MC, BWL, AQ40/20, etc and they were Naxx ready in 2 weeks.

Could you please stop disrupting the echo chamber? Vanilla raids are hard, women are funny, get over it. /Jk

It's crazy to me that this discussion is still a thing after so many people experienced reality for themselves.

[TrollHunter3000]

I keep seeing people endlessly repeat the same lie over and over again about wow classic raids. They keep saying that others argued that classic raids would take months to clear because of mechanical difficulty.

Nobody ever made that argument. Sure, maybe one person did somewhere, but that was never the conversation. The contention was that classic raids would take a long time to clear because of how long it takes to level, gear, and access the content. That’s it. It never had anything to do with mechanical difficulty.

Obviously, they were still wrong. I think for three reasons:

1. It’s faster to level and gear than people assumed, although still way longer than retail.
2. They underestimated how much more powerful 1.12 characters are.
3. They underestimated the knowledge held by people playing on private servers.

Bottom line: this never had anything to do with mechanical complexity. It was always about time investment, low drop rates, etc.. Can we please put this lie to bed? Nobody thought wow classic raids were mechanically difficult. Get over it. Move on.

You must not have read much of what people were posting. Tons of people were saying classic raiding is harder.

[Monkiy]

This thread itself is the Classic Raid Lie.

[RoKPaNda]

I keep seeing people endlessly repeat the same lie over and over again about wow classic raids. They keep saying that others argued that classic raids would take months to clear because of mechanical difficulty.

Nobody ever made that argument. Sure, maybe one person did somewhere, but that was never the conversation. The contention was that classic raids would take a long time to clear because of how long it takes to level, gear, and access the content. That’s it. It never had anything to do with mechanical difficulty.

Obviously, they were still wrong. I think for three reasons:

1. It’s faster to level and gear than people assumed, although still way longer than retail.
2. They underestimated how much more powerful 1.12 characters are.
3. They underestimated the knowledge held by people playing on private servers.

Bottom line: this never had anything to do with mechanical complexity. It was always about time investment, low drop rates, etc.. Can we please put this lie to bed? Nobody thought wow classic raids were mechanically difficult. Get over it. Move on.

No offense to you, but you're kind of talking out of your clacker on this one. The argument WAS made, ad nauseam, that raids used to be harder. Specifically Twin Emps / C'thun / Naxx - And into BC with Vashj/Kael. Because those encounters took forever for top guilds to beat. Opposed to something like say Illidan who was killed in the same reset that the first guilds actually reached him, which was unheard of before that point and became fairly standard after that point. Oddly it wasn't because the game got easier or any nonsense like that, but that's the point where people got really really fucking good at this game.

I disagree wholeheartedly with 2 out of 3 of your points.

1. It’s faster to level and gear than people assumed, although still way longer than retail.

A lot slower than retail to level, not a lot slower to gear. Most things that drop pre-raid BIS can be blown up repeatedly and very quickly, and funneling raid gear is stupidly easy as most of it is sub-optimal.

2. They underestimated how much more powerful 1.12 characters are.

Not really. I think the opposite is true with people who cling to "VANILLA WAS HARD" overstating the 1.12 characters. It makes a difference but it's not the difference between content taking months to beat and content taking 42 minutes after release to beat. lol.

3. They underestimated the knowledge held by people playing on private servers.

Winner. This is where the difference is. Back in Vanilla we had to guess how a lot of things worked. That's why we had AEP/SEP (Agility/Strength equivalency points.) - It wasn't until later in WoW that we found out how things actually worked. Knowledge is the difference. This community is pretty dedicated and pretty great, remember that ilevel was originally figured out by the community because Blizzard itemized a pair of cloth boots (iirc) incorrectly, but when you're kept mostly in the dark you're not going to get it all right.

[NineSpine]

In classic leveling took me under 5 days played, was in MC clearing the day I hit 60. was leveled in the first 3 weeks of launch. Had live raid schedule, full time job and life to contend with.


What points were made, I read through what you said.....which amounted to nothing. You are wrong admit it and move on or provide an actual rebuttal because what I see is that people said that MC will take weeks to clear, done first week, people said BWL would takes weeks to clear done within hours of launch. We will see the same with AQ40 as players will go in prepared for the NR needed to pass the one wall.

Five days played is a lot of time. You can easily be in mythic raids in five days played, easily.