The Great Classic Raid Lie

[Trinkie]

The irony when world quests are harder than classic raids

[HailToTheKing]

Ony has been killed with a full naked raid.

If I could go back over the past 10 or so years and see all the "Classic raiding was the HARDEST content ever in WoW! Naxx 40 was basically impossible" comments, I so would, just to laugh in their face.

Classic raiding is an absolute joke. I fully expect "Impossible" C'Thun to be downed by 39 people naked, only shooting wands with a Hunter pet tanking.

[OrcsRLame]

Again read it and weep! https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/...elease_to_112/ For those of us who were there from the very launch in vanilla remember that there wasnt even enough quests for you to level up with so....

So I was right. There's literally nothing in there about Naxx or AQ. So Naxx and AQ will be the original tuning.

Tbh I think this destroys any argument on the matter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8wT1IjJITI

Onyxia with no gear and rank 1 Frost Bolt. But Vanilla was so hard!

Also, imagine using quests to level instead of dungeon cleaves.

[HailToTheKing]

Also, anyone got that clip of Kungen malding so hard watching the naked Onyxia clip?

[arkanon]

Ony has been killed with a full naked raid.

HAHA, i hadnt seen that, thats priceless! "just getting 40 people geared enough to even ENTER the raid was a HUGE ordeal!"
Classic players: "hold my clothes"

"You just wait for BWL, it will break guilds, no one EVER said MC/Ony was hard!"
"You just wait for Naxx - mythic raiders wont stand a chance! - no one EVER said BWL was hard!"
"You just wait for TBC - Its harder than quantum physics! - no one EVER said Vanilla was hard!"

[Fathr]

So I was right. There's literally nothing in there about Naxx or AQ. So Naxx and AQ will be the original tuning.

Tbh I think this destroys any argument on the matter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8wT1IjJITI

Onyxia with no gear and rank 1 Frost Bolt. But Vanilla was so hard!

Also, imagine using quests to level instead of dungeon cleaves.

Im afraid not, have you seen the absurd amount of buffs ? A caster had 5,5k hp and beign naked!! In Nihilum thier casters were at 2,2k hp at their first onyxia kill incl. wearing some epics at the time.... It just goes to show that the classic experience is so way off that it could possibly be in comparisson to Vanilla. We are compareing apples and bananas here - both fruits but totally different.

We who actually played vanilla, knows truly well how it was with 700ms latency at times, running on olds mobile hardware in comparisson to todays quad core plus cpus and broadband connections. We proclaim that the experience was and is unique and sadly Blizzard will never ever be able to recreate it. It was never about mechanics back then, they were and are easy. But having noobs not spamming their keys to optimize dps while due to latency not moving fast enough on dangers provided fun times indeed.

[Jester Joe]

Im afraid not, have you seen the absurd amount of buffs ? A caster had 5,5k hp and beign naked!! In Nihilum thier casters were at 2,2k hp at their first onyxia kill incl. wearing some epics at the time.... It just goes to show that the classic experience is so way off that it could possibly be in comparisson to Vanilla. We are compareing apples and bananas here - both fruits but totally different.

We who actually played vanilla, knows truly well how it was with 700ms latency at times, running on olds mobile hardware in comparisson to todays quad core plus cpus and broadband connections. We proclaim that the experience was and is unique and sadly Blizzard will never ever be able to recreate it. It was never about mechanics back then, they were and are easy. But having noobs not spamming their keys to optimize dps while due to latency not moving fast enough on dangers provided fun times indeed.

So your defense you're trying to go with is that a private server is more accurate than an official classic server?

[jdbond]

Classic was hard for different reasons. It was fun for different reasons. People are fighting because they think their version is harder. Please don't.

[Gasparde]

Somehwere out there Kungen is still trying to argue how Classic was the toughest raiding has ever been and how to this day still no one has ever been as good at raiding as Nihilum in Classic.

[Segus1992]

And yet Classic is neither. I'd wager a long boi that anyone claiming that Classic is in any form more difficult or challenging than Retail when it comes to clearing raids hasn't done more than LFR if they've even played in the last 5 years.

Classic? You're right.

Vanilla is another story - the talents, knowledge, hardware (servers and PCs), all contributed in making Vanilla hard. Most people who argued Vanilla was harder than retail were referring to how it was at the time - Classic isn't even an attempt to recreate that though, as the game got a LOT easier as the patches dropped, and they didn't even start us off on the earlier ones.

Note: I don't think Vanilla raiding was harder than modern mythic raiding, but I don't think it was necessarily easier either, but the challenge was VERY different. Less about mechanical skill though for sure.

[OrcsRLame]

Im afraid not, have you seen the absurd amount of buffs ? A caster had 5,5k hp and beign naked!! In Nihilum thier casters were at 2,2k hp at their first onyxia kill incl. wearing some epics at the time.... It just goes to show that the classic experience is so way off that it could possibly be in comparisson to Vanilla. We are compareing apples and bananas here - both fruits but totally different.

The buffs used were all available back in original vanilla. People were just too bad to see the value in them.

There is no video of Nihilum's first Ony kill as far as I can find. If you have it, link it. There is a video of the world first however. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ture=emb_title

Their dps range from about 3.4 to 5.5k HP. A perfectly normal amount for early gear levels in classic with no consumables or flasks. Same for world first Rag. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br1hXGXJ7Tg

That is not the content being hard, that is the players being bad. Which makes sense! Everyone is bad the first time they play an MMO.

You're spouting revisionist history in the face of video evidence though.

First you tried to say that classic is easy because of the gear and the patch. Then you posted literal fucking lies saying that Naxx and AQ got nerfed with 1.12, as if you had just found the silver bullet to thwart me with, and your link contained NOTHING about AQ or Naxx. Now that this guild did Ony with no gear you're complaining about their HP, their buffs, as if all that shit didn't exist in vanilla wow.

The one thing you've said that's true, the only thing, is that people had shit PCs and internet back then. That's all. That's the only difference. Classic is 1 to 1 exactly like vanilla wow in every way except we have better PCs and internet. Everything else is the fucking same and you can't admit it because of sunk cost fallacy, because of belief preservation. You can't admit that maybe, just maybe the stuff you did back in the day wasn't intrinsically hard but was only made hard by the lack of knowledge, skill and experience in you and everyone else.

Just look at that Ony video! Their main tank was so bad he could barely hold threat with the dps holding off for over 2 minutes! 2 Fucking minutes! His rage bar never goes down even between her attacks! He's literally auto attacking and the shaman is clicking his lightning bolt about once every 5000 years. This was the best raid group in the world at the time. That's a skill gap. A fucking big one. And bad PCs do not account for that shit. I could load OBS, jack up the CPU usage until I'm playing at 2 FPS and connect to the game using my goddamn phone as a hot spot and I would lose maybe 20-25% of my DPS. Not 90%+.

[munkeyinorbit]

Yet I've had more than my fair share of people in multiple guilds make the claim that Classic raids are more difficult than Retail raids, so your claim that nobody ever made that argument is a lie and decredits your post.

Source please. Hearsay is not evidence. It can not be corroborated.

- - - Updated - - -

I would actually disagree here, with Ony for example, people who know the fight well can still wipe on it. Pull aggro on the dragon at the wrong time, the raid eats a breath and it's probably a wipe. Like you can't actually ignore many of the mechanics and come out victorious. On LFR for example, I can't remember many instances where the mechanics were like that.

Almost every end boss since WoD is like that. KJ LFR is probably going to be harder than Classic Maxx. The current endboss is still a shit show. There are plenty of examples that ignoring mechanics will wipe you. I think the argument has to be how many bosses can you actually ignore mechanics? I'd say LFR has a higher percentage.

[OrcsRLame]

Source please. Hearsay is not evidence. It can not be corroborated.

The original claim, that no one has ever claimed that classic raids were hard, was such a broad, sweeping, outlandish claim to begin with that it falls victim to Hitchen's razor. I don't think any evidence needs to be presented to dismiss such an outlandish claim. Rather, extreme evidence would need to be provided to take such a claim seriously to begin with.

It's also just a bit daft to say that hearsay does not count as evidence when the person you replied to heavily implied that they were talking about hearsay to begin with. It's simply not coherent to ask for a source in such a situation.

[Sofo1]

god i love reading these threads! 10/10!

[Fathr]

Somehwere out there Kungen is still trying to argue how Classic was the toughest raiding has ever been and how to this day still no one has ever been as good at raiding as Nihilum in Classic.

Kungen specifically says time and time again, that nothing in wow has ever been hard! The only challenge hes ever faced was comming up with tactics on how to beat bosses before anyone else in the world did, and getting people to execute those tactics. So wow is not hard by any means, it can be challenging but not hard, the most challenging encounters are the ones where its near impossible due to enrage timers and dps possible.

[Luihu]

I dont see how anyone could have expected classic raids to be hard, we know everything about them and about how classes work. But even then, there are people who still struggle clearing BWL and will struggle clearing next raids, these are the LFR raiders (not saying this in a bad way, even I've been one), they dont care about clearing it and just want to have some fun. This is why people say that LFR is way harder than classic raids since even pugs clear current content in classic day1, because barrier of entry into LFR is so low and generally people just dont care, but in classic if you join the raid you usually are invested in clearing it. I'm pretty sure if blizzard gave us numbers, stats would say that LFR is harder than heroic mode, since you know, even pugs clear heroic mode day1, but groups still wipe in LFR.

When MC raids started, there was no pre-bis lists and even if there was it wouldnt have mattered much because all gear generally was absolute garbage, even raid gear. This is why you have now naked raids killing onyxia, because fully buffed naked characters are way more powerful than fully geared characters when ony was current content (except maybe HP). So when you have people with garbage gear that doesnt really increase your damage and garbage talents, fights are going to take even longer because you need more healers (healing rotations were a thing). I guess only tanks had it easier, because defense was undervalued on gear so getting cap was easier. And with 8 debuff slots you are not going to be doing any class stacking like warriors, who would be arms, filling debuff slots with deep wounds and mortal strikes.

We didnt know what bosses did, so hope you got enough classes than can decurse/remove magic, not like you are going to get past magmadar on your first week with only 1 tranq, and maybe get kill on second week after many wipes when your hunters dont miss their tranqs. Later ofcourse strategies were more available, but even then you had to actively search them and they were just walls of text, and even then some boss abilities were just guesses how they actually work.

[Pohut]

The original claim, that no one has ever claimed that classic raids were hard, was such a broad, sweeping, outlandish claim to begin with that it falls victim to Hitchen's razor. I don't think any evidence needs to be presented to dismiss such an outlandish claim. Rather, extreme evidence would need to be provided to take such a claim seriously to begin with.

It's also just a bit daft to say that hearsay does not count as evidence when the person you replied to heavily implied that they were talking about hearsay to begin with. It's simply not coherent to ask for a source in such a situation.

Just look at these clowns. The whole thread is literally everyone telling the OP how hard MC is going to be:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...Week-of-Launch

[OrcsRLame]

Just look at these clowns. The whole thread is literally everyone telling the OP how hard MC is going to be:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...Week-of-Launch

Good god that's golden.

It's the certainty and dismissive callousness that really gets me. To be fair, some people in that thread did call it right and some people were unsure, but there's so many smug bastards there just laughing at everyone because MC is going to take months. I hope all those people realized how phenomenally wrong they were.