Shadows Rising: Sylvanas Motivation Revealed? *HUGE SPOILERS*

[KainneAbsolute]

So Sylvanas is also tired of the reset on abilities each expansion and the prunings...so she wants to destroy all WoW...hahah

self-righteous cosmos = Blizzard

[Aucald]

Nonsense! Aucald can reconcile anything.

P.S. Sorry for not responding to the previous thread, Aucald, I still have little time, but this reveal was just too tempting. xD

Even my powers have limits, unfortunately. I can't rationalize Med'an, Lucan Foxblood, Thrall in The Shattering, or Garrosh in Stonetalon - mostly because those particular elements actually are bad writing.

[Super Dickmann]

Me thinking Sylvanas is insane and evil? That's not a pivot, and if that makes you a prophet then the bar for prophetdom is perhaps the lowest of any profession. Sylvanas is and has always been a serial fabulist - she cannot accept what she's become, and has moved both heaven and earth in the attempt to avoid facing it. The closest she came was in Edge of Night, and we all saw were that took her.

Your mistake is that there's a need for reconciliation. Rational people reconcile things, but Sylvanas is not rational and never has been.

This is a question of basic logic. I know you're pushing this in order to string together the tangled retardation involved into a coherent plot as a sort of thought exercise, but seriously think about this for a second. Can you, in all honesty, seriously claim that Sylvanas was aware enough to be happy that she was the first woman Warchief and how she didn't want Vol'jin to put her in power and how she'd have avoided war if Varian were in charge and that undeath were preferable to life, while instituting a plan that depended on her being aware that she was put into that spot by the Jailor and would be based around a long-winded war where raising people into undeath in Stormwind would be directly counterproductive? The answer, for reference, is no.

Edge of Night features her seeing hell and deciding undeath is preferable to that, so it would be preferable for others as well - so she acts to preserver herself. That has logical follow through. There is no logical follow through in feigning a lack of awareness and the exact opposite plan in your own head and then comissioning an extremely complex series of events over the course of year to achieve the opposite. You need to be aware to do the latter.

P.S: Garrosh in Stonetalon is supremely easy to reconcile. He didn't bomb civilians then because it wasn't a legit victory and he still didn't later. His plan for Theramore would always have secured evacuees. Hell, the devs themselves say this verbatim in one of the interviews. You're on your own for Lucan and Med'an though, those are unsalvagable.

[Nero Duskwind]

Actually if I'm not mistaken she saw undeath as a higher state of existence in Before the Storm, and even mentioned how she wanted to bestow that "gift" upon the people of Stormwind (i.e. exterminate them down to the last child) to "free them from the shackles of mortality".

Oml, this villain is such a mess. Not even the writers know what's inside her head.

I don't even know what to make of it. At least when Garrosh broke bad, despite how reprehensible his actions were, his motives were completely understandable given his upbringing and the shame he carried regarding his father damning their entire race with Mannoroth's blood.

[UpsideDownCoffee]

Oml, this villain is such a mess. Not even the writers know what's inside her head.

That's because there isn't anything :P

[Nagawithlegs]

BTS Sylvanas perspective is 99% bullshit and likely due to executive mandates to obscure the truth and outright lie to the playerbase.

This doesn't mean that the other things involving Sylvanas don't follow a logical trajectory through the game. Sylvanas fueling the death machine likely wasn't written in Cata (and I don't think anyone's implied as much on the writing team) but having that be put in retroactively does not go against the mass genocide efforts Sylvanas has pushed for since her (second) resurrection. "Sylvanas is evil/crazy since she suicided" has been a longtime idea.

[Aucald]

This is a question of basic logic. I know you're pushing this in order to string together the tangled retardation involved into a coherent plot as a sort of thought exercise, but seriously think about this for a second. Can you, in all honesty, seriously claim that Sylvanas was aware enough to be happy that she was the first woman Warchief and how she didn't want Vol'jin to put her in power and how she'd have avoided war if Varian were in charge and that undeath were preferable to life, while instituting a plan that depended on her being aware that she was put into that spot by the Jailor and would be based around a long-winded war where raising people into undeath in Stormwind would be directly counterproductive? The answer, for reference, is no. Edge of Night features her seeing hell and deciding undeath is preferable to that, so it would be preferable for others as well - so she acts to preserver herself. That has logical follow through. There is no logical follow through in feigning a lack of awareness and the exact opposite plan in your own head and then comissioning an extremely complex series of events over the course of year to achieve the opposite. You need to be aware to do the latter.

Pretty easily - people can hold multiple and sometimes contradictory emotions at a single time. Like I can be proud of being promoted, but I can also express anxiousness about it - worrying that the responsibility might be too much, or the time commitment too onerous, etc. etc. These are only mutually exclusive if you believe people (even fictional people) are two-dimensional and cannot feel a multitude of emotions. Sylvanas could well be proud to be the first female Warchief, but also prefer to stick with her old position for the relative freedoms it offered - that's not a reach by any means.

How much Sylvanas was complicit in the events surrounding her own rise to Warchief is an open question that isn't yet concluded. If she was in the know the entire way, then I would conclude that Before the Storm got hit with the retcon stick, as would anyone else I assume. If she wasn't then the narrative is pretty much intact and not all that difficult to follow. That we now know that it was actually Mueh'zala who whispered into Vol'jin's ear actually makes it less likely Sylvanas was informed of what was going down in the Shadowlands, at least at the time we're given access to her thoughts in Before the Storm. We also have no idea how much she and the Jailer can communicate, or if they even do communicate. All of these remain unexplored elements of the ongoing story.

[Soon-TM]

https://i.imgur.com/sGRrI5E.png

Basically what a lot of people expected: she's sick of her lot in life and wants to destroy everything because she's butthurt.

Is anyone actually surprised or thought she would have a heroic reason?

Yay, colour me surprised

[Super Dickmann]

BTS Sylvanas perspective is 99% bullshit and likely due to executive mandates to obscure the truth and outright lie to the playerbase.

This doesn't mean that the other things involving Sylvanas don't follow a logical trajectory through the game. Sylvanas fueling the death machine likely wasn't written in Cata (and I don't think anyone's implied as much on the writing team) but having that be put in retroactively does not go against the mass genocide efforts Sylvanas has pushed for since her (second) resurrection.

Of course it does, because any undead raised would not be a soul that goes to the Maw and because Sylvanas pushes to not go to war because war is counterproductive to her goal of staying alive at all costs. BTS was not done by executive mandate to obscure the truth to not have the character be a villain - the description of the book changed several times to make her more villainous and she's cast as universally wrong within, with the core of Forsaken society and Lordaeronian identity shifted in order to make her look bad and Calia good. Rather, it's because it villainized her in a separate direction - in being the Horde as grievance vs the Horde as muh honor commune that Saurfang represented, hence her initial struggle with Saurfang being on an ideological axis, but it's ultimate resolution having nothing to do with that. The Sylvanas who wanted to sack Stormwind and raise its inhabitants as undead, then divide them across the Horde is a villain that represents a certain aspect of the Horde that the writers want to excise, still a caricature - still based on retcons, but a different set of retcons than the ones that have her purposefully engineer a war to feed souls into the machine of death.

@Aucald

Her goal of raising Stormwind and her apprehension at doing this if she didn't fear that Anduin lacked control of her people, all things said verbatim in her goal are in direction contradiction to her BFA goal where any side prevailing and anyone being raised would prevent her direct gain in power. She is not merely surprised or unhappy at being Warchief - she blames Vol'jin in particular and doesn't want the post because it puts her in the spotlight. It ties into other Golden-written books where she's against any action that puts her in that position as she'd be axed. In either case, she needs to be aware of her plan to institute it and throughout BTS there is not a peep to that end.

[Coconut]

Even my powers have limits, unfortunately. I can't rationalize Med'an, Lucan Foxblood, Thrall in The Shattering, or Garrosh in Stonetalon - mostly because those particular elements actually are bad writing.

Garrosh, Thrall and Med'an can easily be reconciled: Garrosh was insane, Thrall was temporarily insane, and Med'an's story is actually told from the perspective of a Titan, who at that time also happened to be insane. I've got nothing for Lucan Foxblood, though. I'm actually a little sad I found out about him. xD

[Verdugo]

Pretty easily - people can hold multiple and sometimes contradictory emotions at a single time. Like I can be proud of being promoted, but I can also express anxiousness about it - worrying that the responsibility might be too much, or the time commitment too onerous, etc. etc. These are only mutually exclusive if you believe people (even fictional people) are two-dimensional and cannot feel a multitude of emotions. Sylvanas could well be proud to be the first female Warchief, but also prefer to stick with her old position for the relative freedoms it offered - that's not a reach by any means.

How much Sylvanas was complicit in the events surrounding her own rise to Warchief is an open question that isn't yet concluded. If she was in the know the entire way, then I would conclude that Before the Storm got hit with the retcon stick, as would anyone else I assume. If she wasn't then the narrative is pretty much intact and not all that difficult to follow. That we now know that it was actually Mueh'zala who whispered into Vol'jin's ear actually makes it less likely Sylvanas was informed of what was going down in the Shadowlands, at least at the time we're given access to her thoughts in Before the Storm. We also have no idea how much she and the Jailer can communicate, or if they even do communicate. All of these remain unexplored elements of the ongoing story.

This is grand. You have all this evidence that writers dont know what to do and change the flow on the moments notice and you stil flail around trying to find some sense of planing in this mess.

You already listed bunch of bad writing examples, just add this one on the list. You wont lose any respect from people here.

[Nagawithlegs]

Of course it does, because any undead raised would not be a soul that goes to the Maw and because Sylvanas pushes to not go to war because war is counterproductive to her goal of staying alive at all costs.

Raising ten soldiers to kill hundreds for example. The self-preservation thing is, as far as I'm aware, a logical fan-assumed idea based on her actions following Edge of Night that are just as easily slotted out with the Maw thing.

And, very likely, her "destroy everything" is a warped kind of self-preservation where she doesn't and can't die if the Jailer destroys how death works, so that concept of staying alive forever may still be happening.

[Aucald]

Garrosh, Thrall and Med'an can easily be reconciled: Garrosh was insane, Thrall was temporarily insane, and Med'an's story is actually told from the perspective of a Titan, who at that time also happened to be insane. I've got nothing for Lucan Foxblood, though. I'm actually a little sad I found out about him. xD

I'm aware you're trying to take the mickey out of me, but neither Garrosh nor Thrall were insane. Well, Garrosh might've been insane by the end of MoP - I can't imagine shotgunning Old God essence is great for your mental well-being, but he didn't start that way. Med'an is just garbage - no real saving grace or attempt at reconciliation there, just narrative horrorshow at its finest. And since Med'an isn't even in the Chronicle the Titan angle you posited doesn't hunt (thank the gods for small favors).

- - - Updated - - -

This is grand. You have all this evidence that writers dont know what to do and change the flow on the moments notice and you stil flail around trying to find some sense of planing in this mess.

You already listed bunch of bad writing examples, just add this one on the list. You wont lose any respect from people here.

I still hold that Sylvanas' arc is only "bad writing" if you had some kind of misplaced notion that Sylvanas was ever good to begin with. If you said "Sylvanas has lost a lot of narrative complexity" then I'd agree with you, she has - but that's generally what happens when an anti-hero makes the plunge into complete villain territory, which is what Sylvanas has been doing since Cata.

Is her narrative arc a masterpiece of writing? No, it's not - none of WoW's writing is likely to be heralded in the ages to come. But relative to what it is? It's fine, pretty much.

[Verdugo]

I still hold that Sylvanas' arc is only "bad writing" if you had some kind of misplaced notion that Sylvanas was ever good to begin with. If you said "Sylvanas has lost a lot of narrative complexity" then I'd agree with you, she has - but that's generally what happens when an anti-hero makes the plunge into complete villain territory, which is what Sylvanas has been doing since Cata.

Is her narrative arc a masterpiece of writing? No, it's not - none of WoW's writing is likely to be heralded in the ages to come. But relative to what it is? It's fine, pretty much.

Oh come on, all this teasing from writers that we should wait and see and it all comes down to just being insane? You know better.

[Super Dickmann]

Raising ten soldiers to kill hundreds for example. The self-preservation thing is, as far as I'm aware, a logical fan-assumed idea based on her actions following Edge of Night that are just as easily slotted out with the Maw thing.

And, very likely, her "destroy everything" is a warped kind of self-preservation where she doesn't and can't die if the Jailer destroys how death works, so that concept of staying alive forever may still be happening.

No, it's not a fan assumption, it's what she says herself in Tides of War - she is against war and purposefully doesn't expand out of Lordaeron because the Alliance have her in their sights and would take any excuse to wreck her. Ditto, before Chronicle, Sylvanas was against attacking Gilneas for this reason - not a moral one, she is callous as can be, but because it threatens her subjects' lives, and in turn, them as defenders of her life. Her goal was to continue existing, because death is hell.

The Jailor's goal is omnicide. I can believe that current Sylvanas would not think that includes her, because current Sylvanas is a blank canvas that exists to antagonize our flawless cast of cardboard cutouts, but it doesn't gel with her prior motive, either in BTS or especially before.

[Aucald]

Her goal of raising Stormwind and her apprehension at doing this if she didn't fear that Anduin lacked control of her people, all things said verbatim in her goal are in direction contradiction to her BFA goal where any side prevailing and anyone being raised would prevent her direct gain in power. She is not merely surprised or unhappy at being Warchief - she blames Vol'jin in particular and doesn't want the post because it puts her in the spotlight. It ties into other Golden-written books where she's against any action that puts her in that position as she'd be axed. In either case, she needs to be aware of her plan to institute it and throughout BTS there is not a peep to that end.

If she's not aware of the relationship between "souls in the maw" and "my personal power (granted to me by the Jailer)" then that's not mutually exclusive either, leaving her longer-term plans for Stormwind intact. Add to that fact that adding to her Forsaken also empowers her, allowing her to accelerate the slaughter (aka the Scourge method) would also feed her even if she were aware of said relationship between death and power. Again, that's not exclusive either.

And yeah, she could well blame Vol'jin for putting her on the spot and still be proud of being accepted as Warchief - that's possible for any being with complex emotions. She preferred a specific mode of operating and Vol'jin (and Mueh'zala) made that mode impossible for her, but she might still have positive feelings about having the loyalty of the Horde at her back as Warchief.

[formerShandalay]

Honestly, I still think many people read what Sylvanas was thinking in BTS as what they *thought* she was thinking. Most of the time her inner thoughts were left either completely undescribed or incomplete. She had never wanted to see Vol'jin die, not really, is one of her thoughts. How does that negate that she knew the Jailer would kill him? It made her sad, but she knew it was coming. The second part of that sentence was not in the book.
Same with her thoughts among the Tauren being reminded about what happens if the elements go into too much of a rage. The only thing we get told is that she knows *they* don't want another Cataclysm. Nothing was said about her sharing that sentiment. It was left out and at the time that itself made me wonder, because it happened all over the book, and again in A Good War.
If you read Wrath of the Lich King and try to read it like you didn't know what was going to happen, you can see a lot of that very same 'misdirection' there. Things left out, inner thoughts misleading (like Arthas thinking some things are a sign from the Light. If you didn't know that he was delusional while reading that, you'd feel mislead afterwards too). But it wasn't misleading us, because we already knew what was going on.
If you read BTS with the knowledge of now, it's almost the same, maybe a little less obvious.

Also her being an agressive and destructive nihilist with simply the right 'connection' to actually make it happen is the thing most people expected.
I'm not saying her anger at life and/or light isn't justified, but that still wouldn't make me think she is right about making that same decision for the whole world.

Additionally I still think the Jailer lied to her and manipulated her into actually taking action and not simply killing herself with her Maw-experience in Edge of Night.

[Aucald]

Oh come on, all this teasing from writers that we should wait and see and it all comes down to just being insane? You know better.

You have your mind concluded, and that's your cross to bear as it were. I'm content to see where the story goes and judge it on its merits when they're evident. I prefer not to prejudge things where I can help it.

[Verdugo]

You have your mind concluded, and that's your cross to bear as it were. I'm content to see where the story goes and judge it on its merits when they're evident. I prefer not to prejudge things where I can help it.

Your analogy kind of backfired. I dont need no cross, I was proven right. My back is free from burden.

You on the other hand have to keep being hunched as you try to justify this bullshit.

[Aucald]

Your analogy kind of backfired. I dont need no cross, I was proven right. My back is free from burden.

You on the other hand have to keep being hunched as you try to justify this bullshit.

I enjoy the discussion, myself; so long as it's above board and interesting. Nothing really to justify - I just think that people have confused their own biases with the nature of the story and are upset when the two don't necessarily line up. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong, though; the story being unfinished means it could go any number of ways in the end - perhaps ways I didn't expect or count on.

That's the fun of speculation when you've not closed the book on something out of spite or cynicism.