Isn't there an obvious solution to the "Mandatory covenants" issue?

[FlubberPuddy]

You keep acting like what i am saying is countering what i am saying...it doesn't. I am of the aesthetic camp, i think the choice should be visual only honestly. I just don't like that if make the choice i want, i am punished with a terrible spell (Mage Mirror spell).

And I am saying this feeling you have is no different than me picking Paladin for aesthetics but going 'I am being punished with no range spec'. Do you not see the parallel still?

Except for the aesthetics of class versus class, we have transmog that can literally negate that entirely. I can make my paladin look like a clothy and my mage look like an armored knight with gold. The covenant system entire locks their transmogs behind the choice. I want to the aesthetic of Venthyr for my elven mage cause it fits the entire image of him, but if i make that choice i am stuck with an ability that is largely nonfunctional as it stands in the content i play.

You can not make your Paladin look like a Mage with tmog aka you cannot wear Armor a Mage could wear. And I was talking about ability aesthetics, hence why I said I like the aesthetics of an Arcane Mage, but I am stuck Paladin gold/yellow abilities. But that is because I decided that even with certain grievances, I like the gameplay of Paladin more.

So it goes back to what has always been said, do you value aesthetics more or gameplay more. Even at character creation with race and class WoW has had this dichotomy in place since Vanilla. If you can accept the class/race aesthetics vs gameplay differences then you should be able to do the same here.

What you're attempting is like trying to have your cake sit beautiful and whole and eat it too.

[NineSpine]

Idk, highly successful games such as LoL or Dota balance their stuff around what pros can do. Pubstomper heroes are rarely addressed and when they are, more often than not they are tweaked to become less of pubstompers and more fit for high level play. Why should WoW cater to LFR dwellers? If they don't want to swap their covenant of choice for RP/aesthethic/personal reasons, they are free to do so - it's not like they would ever need to.

It's almost as though LoL and DOTA are games fueled by a wildly popular competitive scene and WoW is not...

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You keep acting like what i am saying is countering what i am saying...it doesn't. I am of the aesthetic camp, i think the choice should be visual only honestly. I just don't like that if make the choice i want, i am punished with a terrible spell (Mage Mirror spell).

Except for the aesthetics of class versus class, we have transmog that can literally negate that entirely. I can make my paladin look like a clothy and my mage look like an armored knight with gold. The covenant system entire locks their transmogs behind the choice. I want to the aesthetic of Venthyr for my elven mage cause it fits the entire image of him, but if i make that choice i am stuck with an ability that is largely nonfunctional as it stands in the content i play.

"I WANT A DEMON PET AS A MAGE! IT ISNT FAIR!"

[bloodwulf]

It's almost as though LoL and DOTA are games fueled by a wildly popular competitive scene and WoW is not...

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"I WANT A DEMON PET AS A MAGE! IT ISNT FAIR!"

Not sure where you got that idea, i just want to look like an aristocrat and host parties for the who's-who of wow. When i speak of aesthetic i mean the zone i quest in, the clothes i wear and people i interact with. The visuals of the abilities are whatever because there is so much ability visual clutter as is that it largely doesn't matter what color the orb i throw at the boss is.

What you're attempting is like trying to have your cake sit beautiful and whole and eat it too.

No what i want is for the choice to be relatively easy to overcome, or for the classes to not have abilities that will be useless in large sects of the content such as the death knight extra grip or the mage mirrors that require spell/ability use by the target. They could easily solve my issues by making a pass that ensures all the abilities can be used in all content with a semi-assumption of effectiveness. The funny thing is, the other 3 covenant mage abilities are largely pretty close for me they don't affect my choice at all. Id trade mirror for any of the others, even the situationally useful night fae one.

[NineSpine]

Not sure where you got that idea, i just want to look like an aristocrat and host parties for the who's-who of wow. When i speak of aesthetic i mean the zone i quest in, the clothes i wear and people i interact with. The visuals of the abilities are whatever because there is so much ability visual clutter as is that it largely doesn't matter what color the orb i throw at the boss is.

Your argument rests on two fallacies:

1. You think the venthyr mage spell isn't useful for the content you do, when it is objectively useful in every type of content.
2. You think you should be able to have whatever combination of aesthetics and mechanics you want, which is as silly as requesting paladin auras to be a feature of your warlock.

[bloodwulf]

Your argument rests on two fallacies:

1. You think the venthyr mage spell isn't useful for the content you do, when it is objectively useful in every type of content.
2. You think you should be able to have whatever combination of aesthetics and mechanics you want, which is as silly as requesting paladin auras to be a feature of your warlock.

Your argument rests on two fallacies:

1. You think soul mirror or whatever its name is, which requires the target to actively cast or use an ability multiple times in a short window is useful for raids. Which it isn't, there has already been bigger names than mine to parse out how little it would of been effective in previous raid tiers.

2. You think i want them to decouple aesthetics and abilities. I don't, i just want to be able to reasonably assume that the ability i get will be useful in the content i do, when i chose based on aesthetics (which i will). I think they have designed multiple extremely terrible abilities that will see very little use in various content type.

[NineSpine]

Your argument rests on two fallacies:

1. You think soul mirror or whatever its name is, which requires the target to actively cast or use an ability multiple times in a short window is useful for raids. Which it isn't, there has already been bigger names than mine to parse out how little it would of been effective in previous raid tiers.

2. You think i want them to decouple aesthetics and abilities. I don't, i just want to be able to reasonably assume that the ability i get will be useful in the content i do, when i chose based on aesthetics (which i will). I think they have designed multiple extremely terrible abilities that will see very little use in various content type.

That mirror ability, the one you don’t even know the name of, lasts 20 seconds. If the enemy uses one ability every five seconds it will do full damage. You are delusional.

[cuafpr]

lock'em i don't care... I'm choosing based on the fits my toons back story the best to hell with the talents. if they are within 5-10% of power no reason to care if you are not chasing world first. If you are chasing world first you know the grind you are getting into with that choice of play style.

[Saltysquidoon]

It's almost as though LoL and DOTA are games fueled by a wildly popular competitive scene and WoW is not...

That's not interacting with the argument.

Riot doesn't not nerf zed because bronze players/normal mode/aram/urf exists even though only 10% of the playerbase are plat+. But for some reason WoW should balance around LFR and RBGs because ???

If you want to proudly say you play at a level where balance doesn't matter then why would you bother having an opinion on balance?

[bloodwulf]

That mirror ability, the one you don’t even know the name of, lasts 20 seconds. If the enemy uses one ability every five seconds it will do full damage. You are delusional.

And as Preach and other streamers have explained, lots of bosses in raids have gaps of 20 seconds or more between abilities. The ability is rarely expected to get its third tick on bosses.

[Schattenlied]

The issue with buffing weaker options is power creep. Because suddenly everything is stronger, you have to buffs the mobs to get on par, and here we go again, some options start to be weaker, etc...

This.


Nerf the ones at the top, buff the ones at the bottom, bring everything to the middle.

[NineSpine]

And as Preach and other streamers have explained, lots of bosses in raids have gaps of 20 seconds or more between abilities. The ability is rarely expected to get its third tick on bosses.

It’s almost as if you will want to time the ability to comport with when bosses use larger dumps of abilities...

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That's not interacting with the argument.

Riot doesn't not nerf zed because bronze players/normal mode/aram/urf exists even though only 10% of the playerbase are plat+. But for some reason WoW should balance around LFR and RBGs because ???

If you want to proudly say you play at a level where balance doesn't matter then why would you bother having an opinion on balance?

MOBA games are entirely dependent on the popularity of the pro scene to fuel the game. It is the heart of the game. Without it, the player base would evaporate. A balanced pro scene is INTEGRAL to how those games function.

None of that is true for WoW, at all. Are you really so dishonest that you would pretend to not understand the difference here?

[Saltysquidoon]

MOBA games are entirely dependent on the popularity of the pro scene to fuel the game. It is the heart of the game. Without it, the player base would evaporate. A balanced pro scene is INTEGRAL to how those games function.

None of that is true for WoW, at all. Are you really so dishonest that you would pretend to not understand the difference here?

So balancing around the top end of play is integral to Lol, Cod, Valorant, CS:GO, Apex legends and DotA but not WoW despite all of these games having casual modes.

You're acting like casual players don't pay the bills in all of these games. I'm still not seeing how that's an argument about why balance matters in every game except WoW?

[NineSpine]

So balancing around the top end of play is integral to Lol, Cod, Valorant, CS:GO, Apex legends and DotA but not WoW despite all of these games having casual modes.

You're acting like casual players don't pay the bills in all of these games. I'm still not seeing how that's an argument about why balance matters in every game except WoW?

The pro player base of those games drives the casual player base. Have you seen the size of their esports?

The same isn’t true for wow, at all. It’s not even close. This is an absurd, delusional comparison.

Do you also find it confusing that pro basketball drives the popularity of casual basketball but pro monopoly has nothing to do with monopoly sales?

[Specialka]

The pro player base of those games drives the casual player base. Have you seen the size of their esports?

The same isn’t true for wow, at all. It’s not even close. This is an absurd, delusional comparison.

Do you also find it confusing that pro basketball drives the popularity of casual basketball but pro monopoly has nothing to do with monopoly sales?

Because there is not such pro monopoly as it is based on luck with very little strategy involve. Catering to casual players would be a mistake as it would dumb down even more the game.

[NineSpine]

Because there is not such pro monopoly as it is based on luck with very little strategy involve. Catering to casual players would be a mistake as it would dumb down even more the game.

Monopoly has a world championship:
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/m...world-champion

You just proved my point. Pro Monopoly is so inconsequential that you didn't even know it existed. Do you think it would be wise for people selling monopoly to act as though the pro monopoly scene is what drives sales? Should they reorganize the game to appease the pro monopoly scene, or would doing so be irrational given that almost nobody buying monopoly cares about the pro monopoly scene?

Casual players are the vast majority of the playerbase. The game should be designed for the average player, to make the game as good as possible for the maximum number of players. Any argument that the game should be made to the DETRIMENT of most players in order to appease some tiny fringe minority is bizarre. It would make as much sense as saying that the game should be designed primarily for pet battlers or for goldshire RP-ers.

You have to be completely detached from reality, and incredibly self-important to the point of delusion, to think that the game should be designed primarily for 1% of players.

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Also, the notion that casual players are what caused the game to become dumbed down is absurd. Why were all of the classes simplified and homogenized over time? It wasn't because of casual players. Casual players aren't obsessed with balance. The simplification and homogenization were done to appease high-end players, both in PvE and PvP. Casual players are perfectly happy to have whacky power spikes and crazy niche abilities. "Pro" players are the ones that relentlessly scream and cry, pounding their fists on the ground in apoplectic mania, demanding that everyone is made identical in order to create "balance".

[klogaroth]

What's with this notion that only the 1% want to try out a different spell on their existing class without having to level that class again completely from scratch to not get locked from going back to their original choice?

Where did this come from? OK don't answer that, I already know. The whole 1% thing is a scapegoat because certain people can't arsed to change their talents, and want a system that locks everyone in the game into an ability to spite them.

[Specialka]

Monopoly has a world championship:
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/m...world-champion

You just proved my point. Pro Monopoly is so inconsequential that you didn't even know it existed. Do you think it would be wise for people selling monopoly to act as though the pro monopoly scene is what drives sales? Should they reorganize the game to appease the pro monopoly scene, or would doing so be irrational given that almost nobody buying monopoly cares about the pro monopoly scene?

Casual players are the vast majority of the playerbase. The game should be designed for the average player, to make the game as good as possible for the maximum number of players. Any argument that the game should be made to the DETRIMENT of most players in order to appease some tiny fringe minority is bizarre. It would make as much sense as saying that the game should be designed primarily for pet battlers or for goldshire RP-ers.

You have to be completely detached from reality, and incredibly self-important to the point of delusion, to think that the game should be designed primarily for 1% of players.

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Also, the notion that casual players are what caused the game to become dumbed down is absurd. Why were all of the classes simplified and homogenized over time? It wasn't because of casual players. Casual players aren't obsessed with balance. The simplification and homogenization were done to appease high-end players, both in PvE and PvP. Casual players are perfectly happy to have whacky power spikes and crazy niche abilities. "Pro" players are the ones that relentlessly scream and cry, pounding their fists on the ground in apoplectic mania, demanding that everyone is made identical in order to create "balance".

You are really out of touch here xD

And what the point of balancing for the masse when they will not push the boundaries of their class and skills ?

[NineSpine]

What's with this notion that only the 1% want to try out a different spell on their existing class without having to level that class again completely from scratch to not get locked from going back to their original choice?

Where did this come from? OK don't answer that, I already know. The whole 1% thing is a scapegoat because certain people can't arsed to change their talents, and want a system that locks everyone in the game into an ability to spite them.

It always descends into "Everyone is mad about how elite and cool and amazing at the game we are and they are just lazy". If you think that that is a solid case for design decisions in any game, I have bad news for you. It's just an admission that this is about your ego, nothing more.

It's a pure delusion to suggest that the covenant system is somehow less complicated than a talent row and has been designed for people who want to make fewer decisions. It's bizarre in the extreme.

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You are really out of touch here xD

And what the point of balancing for the masse when they will not push the boundaries of their class and skills ?

Because creating a situation where a mage and a warlock in the top 1% do the same damage but at the median the mage does 50% of the damage the warlock does would be absurd. Is this seriously that hard to understand?

[klogaroth]

It always descends into "Everyone is mad about how elite and cool and amazing at the game we are and they are just lazy". If you think that that is a solid case for design decisions in any game, I have bad news for you. It's just an admission that this is about your ego, nothing more.

It's a pure delusion to suggest that the covenant system is somehow less complicated than a talent row and has been designed for people who want to make fewer decisions. It's bizarre in the extreme.

Then tell me, why else does the discussion focus in on the so called 1 so called per so called cent?

Plenty of people want to use a variety abilities that are on offer to their class. People like playing different talents for a while. At all levels of the game. People don't just pick stuff because of numbers. They swap between abilities beause they like them. They swap between specs because they like them.

It's not just a handful of players that like to experience different things about their class.

But the argument has become fixated on this numerical high end stuff. Does it matter there, sure. Is it the only place it matters? Not by a long shot.

And it's the usual suspects who are making the same arguments about "not designing for the 1%".

It looks very much like it IS design for the 1%. The 1% of players that go on forums and moan about "the 1%" to justify getting what they want as part of some unseen majority that doesn't actually exist.

The majority of players not only don't give a toss, they don't know the details of the system at all. The number of people actually in tune with all the development updates through alpha is a very small portion of the playerbase.

[apustus]

There is no "mandatory covenants" issue.