[SPOILERS] Thrall licking Tyrande's boots

**eurojust** · 2020-07-18, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by muffinss

not really. you follow orders. you carry out what you are commanded to do. that's why a chain of command exists. if it ever goes to tribunal or review, then the officer who issued those orders are responsible. only time you go above that is when you are playing a show trial because you want to punish the side that lost and make a clear, loud, powerful message to the side that lost. much like the nurnberg trials which many historians consider many of the "trials" where violations of the geneva convention with their rulings and treatment.

that's why there IS a chain of command. soldiers are not post to be judges. if you don't obey that's insubordination. and in regard to the german military, yes, in peace time its easy to do things like that. mark my words, in a time of actual war, those pretty rose tinted glasses rules will be tossed out into the garbage along with the geneva convention. much like how it was tossed out in ww2. and korean war. and vietnam. etc. hell even the war on terror the US managed to skirt around it while simultaneously following it by playing a game of terminology. its not torture! its enhanced interrogation methods.

you cannot afford soldiers playing judges on their orders in a time of all out war. soldiers have to obey their commanders. peace time you can have fun and play doll house and theoretical college sessions, but an actual, all out war you cannot afford to play college anymore.

The geneva convention never exonerated soldiers for committing crimes, especially against civilians. In fact the main point of the geneva convention is to establish rules during war so that civilians, prisoners, etc. are protected.
Following a blatantly illegal order is something punished in every country. It's just basic logic.

**geco** · 2020-07-18, 02:11 PM

Boys take a moment and think about the order system. Imagine that they were targeting your country and they ordered you to kill your comrades-in-arms. Would you do it? There are orders that go against the Morale of your troops and you simply cannot give them. If a general gives such an order, he will only succeed in greatly lowering the morale of the troops.

And we are not talking about the grices but things that are clearly wrong. For anger in WoW term. You cannot Command a Kaldorei to attack the forest. You cannot order the Horde to go against the Honor.

This is why BFA is so poorly written. Sylvanas openly goes against Honor. That should greatly lower the morale of the troops and make them begin to speak ill of them. If Sylvanas was going to do those things she had to sneak them away from the rest of the Horde. As he always did.

That is the bad thing about BFA. I take away the Honor for the Horde and it's not like she did an event where the Horde abandons her honor. BFA Assumes that the Horde has no honor. It turned the Horde into something without any beginning.

**Aucald** · 2020-07-18, 02:22 PM

Let's pivot away from discussing real-world politics and focus instead on the fantasy conflict in WoW.

**Powerogue** · 2020-07-18, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by Aucald

Personally speaking, I don't think this is a debt the Horde can actually pay - even with Sylvanas' head, the agreed upon price, there's still a huge gulf that remains. The only hope the Horde has for atonement is forgiveness from the Kaldorei for what happened. YMMV as to whether that is something that should ever be granted, though.

I feel like there's a distinction between letting go of hatred to move on with your life and wiping the slate clean to totally forgive someone.

**Aucald** · 2020-07-18, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Powerogue

I feel like there's a distinction between letting go of hatred to move on with your life and wiping the slate clean to totally forgive someone.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20120802171942

There is, and "forgiveness" in this context could be construed as either - cessation of hostility, or outright acceptance of the offered apology. Even still, I'm unsure if either is possible in the current circumstances. I know if I were to put my feet into the shoes of the Kaldorei, Tyrande especially, I couldn't forgive the Horde for what they've done. Especially not if I had to witness the atrocity firsthand.

**Varodoc** · 2020-07-18, 05:09 PM

Apologizing to Tyrande is the bare minimum. Thrall is still an asshole who did nothing as the Horde marched on night elf lands and mercilessly slaughtered Tyrande's people. Promising to give her Sylvanas' head is also the bare minimum. Tyrande is entitled to a lot more. Starting from war reparations for the great damage that the Horde wrought on the night elf lands and people including, but not limited to, genocide.

**KSM899** · 2020-07-18, 05:20 PM

Thrall has always been like this, since warcraft 3.

He doesn't wish to fight and will sue peace whenever he can.

This was always his character.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Varodoc

Apologizing to Tyrande is the bare minimum. Thrall is still an asshole who did nothing as the Horde marched on night elf lands and mercilessly slaughtered Tyrande's people. Promising to give her Sylvanas' head is also the bare minimum. Tyrande is entitled to a lot more. Starting from war reparations for the great damage that the Horde wrought on the night elf lands and people including, but not limited to, genocide.

Thrall was in Outland at that time.

But he did nothing when Garrosh bombed Theremore, even though Jaina asked for his help.

**Varodoc** · 2020-07-18, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by KSM899

Thrall has always been like this, since warcraft 3.

He doesn't wish to fight and will sue peace whenever he can.

This was always his character.

- - - Updated - - -

Thrall was in Outland at that time.

But he did nothing when Garrosh bombed Theremore, even though Jaina asked for his help.

Precisely. By literally leaving Azeroth to have fun with his stupid family in a shitty hut, he proved that he did not care one bit if the Horde which he founded started hurting the Alliance again. I'm surprised Tyrande didn't point out Thrall's negligence, if anything she was too nice with him.

**KSM899** · 2020-07-18, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by Varodoc

Precisely. By literally leaving Azeroth to have fun with his stupid family in a shitty hut, he proved that he did not care one bit if the Horde which he founded started hurting the Alliance again. I'm surprised Tyrande didn't point out Thrall's negligence, if anything she was too nice with him.

We don't know when he left, as I recall we last saw him at the end of legion, so he might have went to Outland thinking that everything will be fine since the threat is over. Sylvanas didn't do anything yet.

**Varodoc** · 2020-07-18, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by KSM899

We don't know when he left, as I recall we last saw him at the end of legion, so he might have went to Outland thinking that everything will be fine since the threat is over. Sylvanas didn't do anything yet.

In Legion he was still on Azeroth and he knew that Sylvanas became warchief. Thrall knew Sylvanas was dangerous, especially after the Wrathgate, and he knew from the whole Garrosh situation that he should not leave the Horde, since he's its founder and its spiritual guide.

But who cares about all that, Thrall wanted to play with his kids in Nagrand, so he pretty much abandoned the Horde again and washed his hands with whatever Sylvanas would do.

Saurfang had to wake him up about the fact that he's too important to just go into hiding on another world. "You and I, we don't get to hide."

**Gaidax** · 2020-07-18, 05:44 PM

As it should be.

**geco** · 2020-07-18, 06:19 PM

Thrall could stay with his family, no one would blame him.
But if he comes to face the Horde, he has to speak for the horde and answer because you have to trust someone who did nothing when the problem happened.

**Vaedan** · 2020-07-19, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by Aucald

There is, and "forgiveness" in this context could be construed as either - cessation of hostility, or outright acceptance of the offered apology. Even still, I'm unsure if either is possible in the current circumstances. I know if I were to put my feet into the shoes of the Kaldorei, Tyrande especially, I couldn't forgive the Horde for what they've done. Especially not if I had to witness the atrocity firsthand.

I don't think kaldorei will forgive easily. The process of recovering from the war is always difficult and it usually takes at least two generations to get over a conflict on national level. People who were victims of the attrocities of war usually share their stories with their family and relatives and because of that children makes biased picture of the other side from the perspective of their parent's/grandparent's experience. Now, considering lifespan of elves, I believe that any kind of forgiveness is a long time run, in which Horde has to behave peacefully and not doing any harm to Kaldorei again, since any further agressions, even minor, will fuel their hatred way more then before.

If we will also see Tyrande distributing powers of Night Warrior among other kaldorei, the chances of forgiveness are even smaller, since those powers are described to feed upon vengeance. If there is another faction conflict on the horizon, night elves will surely play their part in it, but we surely can't blame them for that. I still hope we will come back to this "cold war" status with smaller regional skirmishes, something we had in classic, and the larger storytelling will once again focus respective races, rather than factions.

**Narwhalosh Whalescream** · 2020-07-19, 07:33 AM