[SPOILERS] Thrall licking Tyrande's boots

[Accendor]

Lol they burned down one city and it’s genocide?

Just to make this clear: it was called genocide by Blizzard themselves, no reason to discuss that again

[Aucald]

Lol they burned down one city and it’s genocide?

The burned down the Night Elves' single largest population center and killed the majority of the citizens in it, yes. That's pretty much textbook genocide.

[TheFirstOnes]

Who cares? Tyrande's just going to be in-game fodder for the Players to either save or act superior towards anyway.

[Accendor]

I agree with you 100%.

I do not think we should be "joining forces" as much as we do. It devalues the wars greatly and makes them feel meaningless.

I also REALLY hate the story of BFA. It just doesn't make sense. For example, the alliance kills Rastakhan, even though they he was doing what was best for his people and had VERY Little to do with the A/H war. The alliance attacking them was crazy and made zero sense in the grand scheme of things. Then the very next patch we team up with the folks that literally just tried to kill us, and killed a leader from a race of people who just joined our faction. Fuck how is it possible to write so poorly.

It's even worse, because you can actually make a lot of good arguments for the attack. Destroying or conquering Dazar'Alor makes a lot of sense.
Do you know what makes no sense at all? Attacking it and leaving "because the trolls need time to mourne their kind".
Like... What?

[TheFirstOnes]

Like, literally, when the Players are around, the Faction Leaders start cucking down to us. I fucking hate it.

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As a member of the Horde, we are also sick of Blizzards lazy fucking writing. Tell you what, for the interest of fairness, next xpac Anduin can go full blown Hitler and we can raid SW

Didn't know Turalyon was Anduin.

[Mehrunes]

Well, Horde managed to get some territories shortly after Shattering, but they were not able to hold them for long actually.

- Ashenvale was abandoned by them after SoO (proved by Elegy and Good War novellas, which states that Ashenvale was clear of Horde presence)
- They were not able to hold Gilneas and barely defended large sections of Silverpine
- Their former undisputed presence in southern Barrens was compromised by Alliance counter-attack
- They faced Alliance invasion to Stonetalon mountains

SoO happened roughly three years after the Shattering, making the claim that it didn't hold it for long rather misguided. Especially since the Horde withdrew out of Ashenvale only by its own volition.

They didn't "barely defend" large sections of Silverpine either. They were taken by surprise for a moment when Alliance got involved out of nowhere, but then defeated the 7th Legion, pushed the Worgen back all the way to the Greymane Wall and successfully demanded full surrender from the GLF. Alliance tried to contest it some more (vide the battleground), but seen by the legendary daggers questline and as then confirmed by UVG, by the end of Cataclysm Worgen completely abandoned Gilneas. As per Genn's own statement in Before the Storm, shortly before BfA Gilneas was home to the Forsaken. On top of that you left out how Sylvanas and her kicked out Alliance of WPL, nuked the remaining Stormpike army as well and reduced Alliance presence in Arathi to just Refuge Pointe.

As per Tides of War, on their way to Theramore the Horde conquered both Fort Triumph and Northwatch, which also forced the Alliance to abandon the Forward Command (not to mention how destruction of Theramore itself broke Alliance's presence in Dustwallow). While the Alliance did recapture Northwatch in the end, that only returned things to their pre-Cata status that you yourself described as "undisputed Horde presence".

And Stonetalon was never Horde-only zone.

The only territory they managed to hold is Azshara and most likely Hillsbrad. During War of Thorns, they basicly stormed the Ashenvale, it was never said they build any kind of structure to hold it in here.

Why would they need to build anything? They had captured both Night Elven outposts and their own former bases that they abandoned after SoO. They were seen using both in A Good War.

[Ehrenpanzer]

Like, literally, when the Players are around, the Faction Leaders start cucking down to us. I fucking hate it.

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Didn't know Turalyon was Anduin.

Eh.. Turalyon has already been slapped down by just Illidan.. we need a full blown uber evil Alliance character

[Accendor]

As a member of the Horde, we are also sick of Blizzards lazy fucking writing. Tell you what, for the interest of fairness, next xpac Anduin can go full blown Hitler and we can raid SW

The problem is that the horde atrocities were so large that there is basically nothing he could do, that would not be considered justified. Like even if we ignore all PG13 things and go full hardcore mode here, after BfA everything is justifiable.
That is the actual problem here, the horde was displayed as pure evil for a whole expansion, you can not undo that anymore.

[Aucald]

Like, literally, when the Players are around, the Faction Leaders start cucking down to us. I fucking hate it.

Except for Nathanos, who doesn't tend to give two shits about the Horde champion. What praise he does give is given sparingly and often laced with further insults.

[Varodoc]

Lol they burned down one city and it’s genocide?

They burned down an entire kingdom. Teldrassil was a massive world tree with several towns dotting its landscape, not just Darnassus.

[TheFirstOnes]

Except for Nathanos, who doesn't tend to give two shits about the Horde champion. What praise he does give is given sparingly and often laced with further insults.

And that's why he's a world boss for the Players to beat tf out of. Whether he dies or not is none of my concern, however. I just wanna beat em up.

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Eh.. Turalyon has already been slapped down by just Illidan.. we need a full blown uber evil Alliance character

So...

Yrel?

[Ehrenpanzer]

The problem is that the horde atrocities were so large that there is basically nothing he could do, that would not be considered justified. Like even if we ignore all PG13 things and go full hardcore mode here, after BfA everything is justifiable.
That is the actual problem here, the horde was displayed as pure evil for a whole expansion, you can not undo that anymore.

Eh... lets not pretend the Alliance were poor innocents being taken advantage of. Executing captured Zandalari trolls, WQ that have you use the dark iron ball to kill goblin civilians by the hundreds

[Mehrunes]

Despite the night elves losing the majority of their population, before Nazjatar both the Alliance and Horde's internal estimates put the Alliance at mere weeks away from victory. Afterwards, enough of the Horde had split off from Sylvanas and joined Saurfang's rebellion that a push could be made.

And after Nazjatar the tables turned. The push that could be made with Saurfang's bunch of Alliance ass-lickers? By Anduin's own admission it was the one, final push and then he'd be out of forces. And even with his ex-Horde polyps, his forces still were significantly surpassed by the Horde. To the point that Alliance's own leaders were commenting after the fact how Sylvanas' forces were the only army big enough to fight N'Zoth's forces.

Lor'themar had many issues with Sylvanas, not just as Warchief but stretching all the way back to when she essentially held the Ghostlands hostage to force him to contribute more to the Horde war effort in Northrend despite his people still reeling from the events of TBC. Ever since then they have been starkly at odds, up to Lor'themar refusing to back Sylvanas up when she (rightly) pointed out Garrosh's increased warmongering would put the Undercity in the Alliance's sights.

She didn't "hold him hostage" to force him to contribute more to the Horde war effort in Northrend. She "held him hostage" to make him contribute anything to the Horde war effort in Northrend. Because despite being obligated to contribute to Horde's war effort as a member nation of the Horde, Lor'themar wanted to do fuck all and shit all over his duty to the faction that helped save Blood Elves twice by then. All because he decided that the Blood Elves have nothing more to give. Which, as per the end result of Sylvanas "holding him hostage", turned to be a pile of bullshit. And he openly pondered all of that in front of Sylvanas, despite the fact that she just arrived from Orgrimmar to convey the Warchief's call to war. Lor'themar was openly planning treason. Sylvanas informing him that she would no longer babysit his inept ass in light of the treason he wanted to commit wasn't her "holding him hostage". It was her pointing out the patently obvious consequences of his desired treason. If Lor'themar wanted to disregard his part of the deal with the Horde, he was in no position to except the Horde and its other members to keep their side of the bargain.

[Oakshana]

"Hey Tyrande, I bring you the apologies from the Horde but Ashenvale is ours now, you known. But know that we are very veeeeeerrryyy sorry."

Well, there you go. At the end of Shadowlands, the modern world should be phased to level cap where the Horde have pulled all of their army from out of all of the Night Elf ancestral lands.

A commitment to that would be an apology that would stick.

Sure, leave it in tact as is for leveling purposes... but wouldn't be too much resources to modify the few Night Elf areas that Garrosh ruined.

[Mehrunes]

Judging by ongoing trends, Blizzard has widely distanced the lore from Knaak's novels, up to and including killing off his two main protagonists and evolving Vereesa beyond 'Rhonin's elf girlfriend.' It wouldn't surprise me if Wolfheart and Stormrage were broadly canon but many details like Maiev being a serial-killing sociopath going after anyone who thinks the Alliance is neato torpedo being written out of the canon. Not only because internal consistency is a four-letter word at Blizzard, but also because there's even fewer possible ways to reconcile Wolfheart Maiev with Legion-onward Maiev than there is to reconcile the discrepancies between Sylvanas's internal monologue in Before the Storm with her actions and private discussions in BFA.

I'm pretty sure there was a line in Legion addressing that though. Something about Maiev being under a "dark influence". It was either something that Maiev said to Jarod or that Jarod told somebody else.

[Oakshana]

Eh... lets not pretend the Alliance were poor innocents being taken advantage of. Executing captured Zandalari trolls, WQ that have you use the dark iron ball to kill goblin civilians by the hundreds

What? The quest in Zuldazar where you become the enormous fire golem and wrecking ball the shoreline? Those aren't civilian goblins. They are technically the same goblins who attacked the Dark Irons per the Horde command. That makes them complicit.

[geco]

I'm pretty sure there was a line in Legion addressing that though. Something about Maiev being under a "dark influence". It was either something that Maiev said to Jarod or that Jarod told somebody else.

Jarol to the Player.
And when Maiev tries to explain it he says to forget it.

(They cannot openly say that the novel is not cannon because all the rest of the novel is)

[Aucald]

Jarol to the Player.
And when Maiev tries to explain it he says to forget it.

(They cannot openly say that the novel is not cannon because all the rest of the novel is)

Maiev was basically traumatized from her time as Illidan's prisoner in Outland and suffered a full psychological breakdown (as pretty much shown in-game) when Illidan was defeated at the Black Temple. She hid much of her condition from the rest of her people after imprisoning Illidan in the Vault of the Wardens, even going as far as to try to rebuild the order of the Wardens since many of them had died in Illidan's escape and the subsequent chase across Azeroth and Outland. The re-acceptance of the Highborne back into Night Elven society was too much for her battered psyche to bear, and she went a bit crazy afterward. In the intervening time she has apparently gotten a grip on her sanity, though she remains distrusted and feared by many. She has the twin stigmas of being both a selfless hero to many of her people, as well as an example of what uncontrolled fanaticism can do to a person.

[Vaedan]

SoO happened roughly three years after the Shattering, making the claim that it didn't hold it for long rather misguided. Especially since the Horde withdrew out of Ashenvale only by its own volition.

They didn't "barely defend" large sections of Silverpine either. They were taken by surprise for a moment when Alliance got involved out of nowhere, but then defeated the 7th Legion, pushed the Worgen back all the way to the Greymane Wall and successfully demanded full surrender from the GLF. Alliance tried to contest it some more (vide the battleground), but seen by the legendary daggers questline and as then confirmed by UVG, by the end of Cataclysm Worgen completely abandoned Gilneas. As per Genn's own statement in Before the Storm, shortly before BfA Gilneas was home to the Forsaken. On top of that you left out how Sylvanas and her kicked out Alliance of WPL, nuked the remaining Stormpike army as well and reduced Alliance presence in Arathi to just Refuge Pointe.

As per Tides of War, on their way to Theramore the Horde conquered both Fort Triumph and Northwatch, which also forced the Alliance to abandon the Forward Command (not to mention how destruction of Theramore itself broke Alliance's presence in Dustwallow). While the Alliance did recapture Northwatch in the end, that only returned things to their pre-Cata status that you yourself described as "undisputed Horde presence".

I won't argue that Horde did not had its victories, they had, but most of them did not resulted in territorial gains for them in the long run... they may removed Northwatch, but Barrens were already Horde territory. They may destroyed Theramore, but they did not claim Dustwallow afterwards. I reacted on a claim that Horde gained "many territories", which is not true. That does not mean they didn't win any battle and I never denied that.

Also if I recall that Genn's statement correctly, he said that Gilneas is home of the dead, which does not have to mean it is occupied by Forsaken. It can as easily be interpreted as metaphorical way of saying it is abandoned place.

Prior to Cataclysm, Alliance presence in Stonetalon was close to zero and the zone was used mainly by the Horde as a place where they got their wyverns from if I'm not mistaken. So while it was not solid part of Horde territory, Horde could operate there without any major Alliance interference. Cataclysm changed that. Same goes to Barrens.

So as I said, the only straight territorial gains were Azshara and most likely Hillsbrad, which is labeled as contested territory in game, but once you are done with quests there, Alliance presence in the area is either removed or bligthed and melted, so I would consider Hillsbrad being Horde territory in canon.

Horde made their move to Arathi, that's for sure, but they did not removed Alliance entirely, it is also later shown that Galen betrayed Forsaken and has his own agenda in Stromgarde, which is later reclaimed by the Alliance anyway, so I guess Horde did not have really strong position in Arathi to begin with.

Why would they need to build anything? They had captured both Night Elven outposts and their own former bases that they abandoned after SoO. They were seen using both in A Good War.

They would not have to build, but again, only capturing elven outposts does not mean strong position for them. In War of Thorns, Ashenvale was not their priority. They just stormed the forest to get to World Tree asap. Once Horde army had to divide its efforts and fight on more fronts and Sentinel Army making return from Silithus and Darkshore being retaken, I don't think Horde had that strenght or numbers to hold those outposts... but since it has not been adressed in any source, we can discuss it forever. The only information we have is that Horde was weakened and was losing on all fronts and elves had their momentum after Darkshore victory.

[Mehrunes]

I won't argue that Horde did not had its victories, they had, but most of them did not resulted in territorial gains for them in the long run... they may removed Northwatch, but Barrens were already Horde territory. They may destroyed Theramore, but they did not claim Dustwallow afterwards. I reacted on a claim that Horde gained "many territories", which is not true. That does not mean they didn't win any battle and I never denied that.

The Horde already had presence in Dustwallow prior to the bombing of Theramore. With Theramore being turned into a crater that kinda left them the only faction with any real presence there. Especially since logically the Alliance forces manning their few remaining towers would have retreated to Theramore while the Horde advanced, which would then make them part of the "I'm not a crater" crowd.

Also if I recall that Genn's statement correctly, he said that Gilneas is home of the dead, which does not have to mean it is occupied by Forsaken. It can as easily be interpreted as metaphorical way of saying it is abandoned place.

Nope. He says it's home to "them" while pointing at the Forsaken attending to the Gathering.

Prior to Cataclysm, Alliance presence in Stonetalon was close to zero and the zone was used mainly by the Horde as a place where they got their wyverns from if I'm not mistaken. So while it was not solid part of Horde territory, Horde could operate there without any major Alliance interference. Cataclysm changed that. Same goes to Barrens.

So was the Horde presence. They had only one outpost of note. Outside of it they had a troll living in a tent and that was pretty much it.

So as I said, the only straight territorial gains were Azshara and most likely Hillsbrad, which is labeled as contested territory in game, but once you are done with quests there, Alliance presence in the area is either removed or bligthed and melted, so I would consider Hillsbrad being Horde territory in canon.

Contested territory is a game mechanic that simply means PvP in that zone is free for all, as opposed to leveling areas where players of the relevant faction are protected. Hillsbrad has no Alliance content since Cataclysm. Together with multiple other areas in Lordaeron continent. Those were all Horde gains in-lore.

Horde made their move to Arathi, that's for sure, but they did not removed Alliance entirely, it is also later shown that Galen betrayed Forsaken and has his own agenda in Stromgarde, which is later reclaimed by the Alliance anyway, so I guess Horde did not have really strong position in Arathi to begin with.

I already addressed the remaining Alliance presence in advance. Refuge Pointe is the least defensible outpost of any faction in any zone. The Alliance there are just sitting ducks. And while Galen betrayed the Forsaken (though from what I recall he only did so around the time of Legion), that still left the Horde with Hammerfall and Galen's Fall.

They would not have to build, but again, only capturing elven outposts does not mean strong position for them. In War of Thorns, Ashenvale was not their priority. They just stormed the forest to get to World Tree asap. Once Horde army had to divide its efforts and fight on more fronts and Sentinel Army making return from Silithus and Darkshore being retaken, I don't think Horde had that strenght or numbers to hold those outposts... but since it has not been adressed in any source, we can discuss it forever. The only information we have is that Horde was weakened and was losing on all fronts and elves had their momentum after Darkshore victory.

Why wouldn't it mean a strong position for them? It meant a strong position for the Night Elves prior to Tyrande sending their army to Silithus. And the forces from Darkshore had to retreat somewhere. Ashenvale is kinda the only zone connected to it.