PvP testing on Beta is open: discussion

[Sunslayer]

I want to preface this with, I know it's early Beta. But, we can still begin the discussion.

I'm going to state my main concerns. PvP vendors atm on Beta seem pointless. There is no PvP stat so PvP gear will be undesirable as you can build a far better gear set in PvE as the gear is not well optimized on Beta currently.

Shaman looks really bad in PvP. I was watching some vids of skirmishes and every Shaman I saw died instantly. I know it's early Beta but what concerns me is how is this fixable? As this issue is deeply rooted in the Shamans base design.

[Wuusah]

Venthyr teleport is ridiculously strong in arena. Shadowlands arena is gonna be a lot like League of Legends. Everyone has a flash and it will get nerfed and nerfed again.

Gonna be real fun a month or two into the expansion when the main reason to pick your covenant is nerfed to the ground

[Unholyground]

Ideally they will disable signature covenant abilities in structured/instanced PvP.

[Sunslayer]

Ideally they will disable signature covenant abilities in structured/instanced PvP.

I'd go a step further and say, deactivate PvE trinkets as well and lower PvE gear ilevel in rated PvP.

[arandomuser]

I'd go a step further and say, deactivate PvE trinkets as well and lower PvE gear ilevel in rated PvP.

i know your not advocating for the legion templates
but i think they were ideal for balance
but ended up being very boring

[Sunslayer]

i know your not advocating for the legion templates
but i think they were ideal for balance
but ended up being very boring

Nope. I hated templates. But I am advocating removing the brokenness that is PvE trinkets from PvP. Actually, I retract that. PvE trinkets are ok, cause it's a waste of breath, imo. I'd rather they go back to having PvP trinket set bonuses.
I like the trade off when using a PvE trinket you also take more damage.

[d00dles]

https://youtu.be/dR1YiEsIiWM?t=962

Arms warrior drops ravager. Shaman uses grounding totem and windfury tototem and runs away. Ravages still catches up. Shaman dies right after using Door of Shadows. For some reason I just find that hilarious.

The shaman also messed up during the match but honestly there wasnt much else that could have been done. Looks like they will continue to be laser focused (just like previous expansions) and die first.

[Sunslayer]

https://youtu.be/dR1YiEsIiWM?t=962

Arms warrior drops ravager. Shaman uses grounding totem and windfury tototem and runs away. Ravages still catches up. Shaman dies right after using Door of Shadows. For some reason I just find that hilarious.

The shaman also messed up during the match but honestly there wasnt much else that could have been done. Looks like they will continue to be laser focused (just like previous expansions) and die first.

I think classes should have a weakness. I know that Shaman weakness is the worst in the game. I play pretty much every class and Shamans weakness which is it's survivability is truly crippling. Let's recognize that Rogues and Mages are supposed to share this weakness with Shaman which is actually comical as we've all seen Rogues tank M+ when your tank dies and the DK that tried to tank gets 1 shot the Rogue steps up and tanks like a boss. And Mages...ya, squishy doesn't come to mind as they have insane control and mobility as we've all witnessed.
So, why is Shaman crippled in such a way by design?

[Wuusah]

I think classes should have a weakness. I know that Shaman weakness is the worst in the game. I play pretty much every class and Shamans weakness which is it's survivability is truly crippling. Let's recognize that Rogues and Mages are supposed to share this weakness with Shaman which is actually comical as we've all seen Rogues tank M+ when your tank dies and the DK that tried to tank gets 1 shot the Rogue steps up and tanks like a boss. And Mages...ya, squishy doesn't come to mind as they have insane control and mobility as we've all witnessed.
So, why is Shaman crippled in such a way by design?

because shaman has an identity crisis since pretty much forever. Blizzard doesn't really know what to do with them.

[Sunslayer]

because shaman has an identity crisis since pretty much forever. Blizzard doesn't really know what to do with them.

It's really odd that the only caster with a shield and decked out in chainmail is by far the squishiest caster? This is such an odd game.
You'd think Blizzard would throw Shamans a bone as there is a reason you'll never see Shaman in +17 keys or higher as the class cannot survive mechanics due to its poor defensives.

[WhirlwindTV]

I think classes should have a weakness. I know that Shaman weakness is the worst in the game. I play pretty much every class and Shamans weakness which is it's survivability is truly crippling.

This is why I hoped I could get into the Alpha and now Beta (to no avail). Simply to be one of the few high rated PvP Enhance Shams on live right now in there able to spam in feedback about how bad Shaman defenses are compared to everyone else. I don't think any other class actually has to sacrifice offense to use their defensive mechanic like Enhance does with self heals via Maelstrom stacks. Just like how Enhance were the only Shaman spec that couldn't abuse the Spectral Recovery/Pack Spirit nonsense from BFA, if Enhance's damage output is designed and balanced around the spell casts from Maelstrom as a regular and large part of the rotation, then any of those used for defensive healing in a PvP situation means that we're then inherently weaker than another class straight up when looking at the balance ranking for PvE stepping into PvP.

[Sunslayer]

This is why I hoped I could get into the Alpha and now Beta (to no avail). Simply to be one of the few high rated PvP Enhance Shams on live right now in there able to spam in feedback about how bad Shaman defenses are compared to everyone else. I don't think any other class actually has to sacrifice offense to use their defensive mechanic like Enhance does with self heals via Maelstrom stacks. Just like how Enhance were the only Shaman spec that couldn't abuse the Spectral Recovery/Pack Spirit nonsense from BFA, if Enhance's damage output is designed and balanced around the spell casts from Maelstrom as a regular and large part of the rotation, then any of those used for defensive healing in a PvP situation means that we're then inherently weaker than another class straight up when looking at the balance ranking for PvE stepping into PvP.

I wish they had upvoting on this forum! Very good post!

[Fantazma]

A brief history of the shadowlands alpha / beta:

Rogue Subtlety Community: Give us Gouge back plz!
Blizzard: ......... what?
Rogue Subtlety Community: Gouge !! We need Gouge !!
Blizzard: ...... George?
Rogue Subtlety Community: No! I said Gouge !! GOUGE !!!
Blizzard: ...... hnnn ... ok ... but ... who is George?
Rogue Subtlety Community: Jesus man !!! GOUGEEEEEE !!!!
Blizzard: Oh ... George is Jesus! Okay. Any more requests?
Rogue Subtlety Community: GOF **** URSELF !!!
Blizzard: Do you want a NERF ?? OOOK!!!

[DemonDays]

I think classes should have a weakness. I know that Shaman weakness is the worst in the game. I play pretty much every class and Shamans weakness which is it's survivability is truly crippling. Let's recognize that Rogues and Mages are supposed to share this weakness with Shaman which is actually comical as we've all seen Rogues tank M+ when your tank dies and the DK that tried to tank gets 1 shot the Rogue steps up and tanks like a boss. And Mages...ya, squishy doesn't come to mind as they have insane control and mobility as we've all witnessed.
So, why is Shaman crippled in such a way by design?

Rogues don't have a weakness. They're good at absolutely everything. They have Immunities for both melee and magical damage. They can reset fights. They have self heals. Insane damage. Insane mobility.

Like really. What's a Rogues weakness?

[Sunslayer]

Rogues don't have a weakness. They're good at absolutely everything. They have Immunities for both melee and magical damage. They can reset fights. They have self heals. Insane damage. Insane mobility.

Like really. What's a Rogues weakness?

Exactly. You aren't alone in thinking that. Rogues are and have always been grossly overturned.

[Kralljin]

Let's recognize that Rogues and Mages are supposed to share this weakness with Shaman

It's really odd that the only caster with a shield and decked out in chainmail is by far the squishiest caster? This is such an odd game.

It's a long topic, but i think the short(er) version is basically: Rogues and Mages used to be squishy (=Classic) to the point where they could barely engage a fight with a certain class / spec (Warrior, Hunter, Elemental) without dropping dead within a few abilities / spells.

However, due the introduction of Arena, any class / spec with a ton of control automatically got tanky because of how Arena simply works (small scale combat).

On top of that, Blizzard gave Rogues and Mages potent defensive CD's, this alongside their control makes them so tanky.

I think that's just the problem, and why RMX has always been so popular, they are squishy, but they have the control and mobility to carry them over until they come back at you with their offensive CD's to strike a kill or until their defensive CD's are off CD and they can play more offensively.

It's one of the most annoying things against RMX: You pressure the Mage / Rogue, you force a defensive CD but then they just peel until you can no longer keep up the pressure and suddenly one of their CD's is back.


Also, it needs to be said, Shaman used to excel at one thing in PvP: bursting down people, yet nowadays it has become increasingly difficult to burst down people.
(Because that really sucks in Arena)

Also, Armor barely matters anymore in PvP, so that's a thing as well.

As far as PvE is concerned, it's the same thing basically, their defensive capabilities are just so much more suited for that sort of content, because powerful CD's are everything.


Quite frankly, the entire "defensive" portion of Class design requires a heavy rework, barely anything has to do with "Class fantasy" anymore and far too many classes live off extremely boring but effective "Reduces damage by X%" Def CD's.
Homogenization and "just give it to them for the sake of balance" has really wreaked havoc here.

I mean, in what sort of RPG is the thief / rogue / assassin or even Wizard character considered tankier than the Warrior / Fighter?
World of Warcraft.

[Sunslayer]

I'm not intentionally being arguementitive as I agree with a lot of what you're saying and I appreciate your articulation.
But, since I started, day 1 of TBC launch, Rogue and Mage has been powerhouses. Mage and Rogue had less health but Rogues had so much control and burst that it was a Nightmare for anyone other than Warriors whom countered Rogues. Also, it was said for the longest time; Hunters counter Mage, Mage counters WoW.
I remember having to trinket the rogue opener to not die only to eat a Blind into restealth into another opener. Rogue has been absurd for ages. Now, I used to counter Rogues on my Hunter (not the very best Rogues I made the mistake of attacking one of my servers best Rogues on Sargeras and he straight farmed me). But, you could pretty much hard counter most Rogues just by knowing where they will be and what they're going to do.
Apologies, I got off track. But, Enhance needs so much work. Enhance feels so badly designed, it doesn't feel like your supposed to play this game as this spec. And, reports from Alpha/Beta is that Enhance feels the worst it's ever felt and it's because of its core design. It's not like you tweak one or two things it's an overhaul at this point. Watching Shaman testing PvP atm in Beta is really bad. They die instantly

[Fantazma]

Rogues don't have a weakness.

My wife appeared naked here while I read "rogues have no weakness". Well, she'll have to wait now ...
My main char is a rogue and I will never (NEVER) understand this argument. Today we are much weaker at 1x1 than DH, DK, Monk, Lock, Mage, balance Druid, Warrior fury (am I forgetting anyone?)
Is it because of our stealth? Dude, after we left stealth we are just little girls trying to poison you even though you know that you can heal easily and kill us with 2 or 3 hits (especially if you are a DH).
Stop saying "nerf rogue, nerf rogue, nerf rogue ..." throughout expansion. The rogue subtlety is a fake spec nowadays because of this mantra. Only pikaboo milk this cow.

[msmollymillions]

My wife appeared naked here while I read "rogues have no weakness". Well, she'll have to wait now ...
My main char is a rogue and I will never (NEVER) understand this argument. Today we are much weaker at 1x1 than DH, DK, Monk, Lock, Mage, balance Druid, Warrior fury (am I forgetting anyone?)
Is it because of our stealth? Dude, after we left stealth we are just little girls trying to poison you even though you know that you can heal easily and kill us with 2 or 3 hits (especially if you are a DH).
Stop saying "nerf rogue, nerf rogue, nerf rogue ..." throughout expansion. The rogue subtlety is a fake spec nowadays because of this mantra. Only pikaboo milk this cow.

Learn to reset shitty rogue.

[Sunslayer]

My wife appeared naked here while I read "rogues have no weakness". Well, she'll have to wait now ...
My main char is a rogue and I will never (NEVER) understand this argument. Today we are much weaker at 1x1 than DH, DK, Monk, Lock, Mage, balance Druid, Warrior fury (am I forgetting anyone?)
Is it because of our stealth? Dude, after we left stealth we are just little girls trying to poison you even though you know that you can heal easily and kill us with 2 or 3 hits (especially if you are a DH).
Stop saying "nerf rogue, nerf rogue, nerf rogue ..." throughout expansion. The rogue subtlety is a fake spec nowadays because of this mantra. Only pikaboo milk this cow.

You need to play and understand your class better. When I fight Rogues I play my class and theirs. What do I mean? Well, for everything I plan to do, I know the Rogues counter. You can counter anything 1v1 with all of your CDs up. But 1v1 isn't balanced is the Rogue excuse.