Dev Interview - Balance in Shadowlands, Beta Add-Ons, AH Dance Party

[munkeyinorbit]

Well I agree with blizzard being silly about stuff like this. Me and a guildie have good laughs with Ion's statements about many things, and it end up being totally wrong :P

Let loot be loot (then say they will add 2set bonuses to items in dungeons or similar stuff like they said few days ago) Haha!

I agree. It is his fault that the players don't understand what let loot be loot means. He should ensure a consistent communication from his team so that people don't get embarrassed in forums for completely missing the point.

[Mask]

I really Hope they don’t cave on the covenants Having actual rpg stuff like dungeon buffs based on your choices sounds great.

Agreed. I am super excited for each covenant to offer different and cool things. If I end up hating the covenant I choose first for whatever reason I can always switch.

People complaining seem to do so under the argument that they are locked into their covenant choice for the next 2 years or something. Come on. They are switchable. If you think one is better than the rest, then just play that one. If Blizzard does a balance patch 3 months in and changes which covenant you think is best, THEN SWITCH TO IT. YOU AREN'T LOCKED INTO A SINGLE ONE FOREVER! In fact, I expect them to add at least one new covenant in a later patch. Maybe even multiple new ones.

[facefist]

"If there are situations where people are excluded from content due to their choice, this is where they want to make changes."

It's not like this has been mentioned over and over from everyone that covenants will do exactly this what a fucking shitfest

I think this is something that they don't understand perfectly.

People getting excluded due to their choice is not only about the current balance between things. The perceptions of the community have huge impact on this; if something is seen by the community as a sub-optimal choice, those players will get excluded (even if the balance if quite fine). Even if they buff that choice, it will take some time for the community to start perceiving otherwise, thus imbalance in the beginning can cause long-term impacts for those people who made the wrong choice. It's not all about numbers, but how the community starts to look at things.

The funny thing about this is that I'm probably picking my class based on covenants (and not vice versa). Given that there is a class which chooses the same covenant for m+ and raids; I would hate to choose which content I would prioritize. If there is a class that clearly has one ability tailored for m+ and one for raids, then that is a huge no go for me.

[Logwyn]

I really Hope they don’t cave on the covenants Having actual rpg stuff like dungeon buffs based on your choices sounds great.

Only issue I could see with this is "Looking for Healer/DPS/Tank must have [convent so and so for party buff]."

But I'm liking some of what I'm seeing gin Shadowlands.

[Ryonas]

"Covenants are a holistic package where you might not be the most amazing at 'this thing' over here, but look at all these other cools things you excel at over here!"

I mean...that's a nice thought, and everything. But in practice, the only things that will end up mattering are: how much damage can I avoid/absorb for tank classes; how much sustained/burst/per-second healing can I do as a healer; and how much sustained/burst/per-second damage can I do as a DPS. There will be no other considerations whatsoever in this MMO known as World of Min/Max. These Philistines don't care at all about fun or flavor -- only how fast they can burn through bleeding-edge content, so they can then sit back and sell carries of it. I can see it now..."LF tank for Mythic +99,000. Only X Covenant need apply." "Guild recruiting ranged DPS. What? You're a ranged and you're not X Covenant?? LOL, eff off and git gud, n00b!"

Remember: ONLY min/max matters at all in this game. Fun not allowed.

[Doffen]

I agree. It is his fault that the players don't understand what let loot be loot means. He should ensure a consistent communication from his team so that people don't get embarrassed in forums for completely missing the point.

Talking about embarrasment, you didn't see the post I wrote after the one you just quoted did you now. Or the following posts for that matter. Must be embarrasing. And, let loot be loot.

See ya

[facefist]

Remember: ONLY min/max matters at all in this game. Fun not allowed.

People find different things fun. You should find other people who like the same stuff that you do and play with them, don't blame those who enjoy different things. For me min/maxing is the most fun way to play this game currently, while there are other games that I prefer playing without putting too much thought into it.

Also, pro-covenant players who don't like min/maxing are all about "meaningful choice" etc., so whats the problem with getting excluded from groups if you make the wrong choice? It wouldn't be meaningful without real consequences, right? Well, being excluded from high level groups is one of those. You get to choose whether you prioritize players power and get invited, or prioritize other things and might not get invited.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Only issue I could see with this is "Looking for Healer/DPS/Tank must have [convent so and so for party buff]."

But I'm liking some of what I'm seeing gin Shadowlands.

ya but the people who make those kinds of goods are the same ones who won't take any one who doesn't already out gear the content so it wont really matter for most players.

- - - Updated - - -

Agreed. I am super excited for each covenant to offer different and cool things. If I end up hating the covenant I choose first for whatever reason I can always switch.

People complaining seem to do so under the argument that they are locked into their covenant choice for the next 2 years or something. Come on. They are switchable. If you think one is better than the rest, then just play that one. If Blizzard does a balance patch 3 months in and changes which covenant you think is best, THEN SWITCH TO IT. YOU AREN'T LOCKED INTO A SINGLE ONE FOREVER! In fact, I expect them to add at least one new covenant in a later patch. Maybe even multiple new ones.

ya even though they are going to be switch about people complain because they don't want to put in the effort to do so, but with any luck blizzard sticks to there guns and we can get some much needed rpg back into the game.

[Nfinitii]

A big part of class balance and tuning comes from making you feel like you have really distinct strengths and weaknesses. This is a big part of what makes you feel unique and like you have a place in content.

Part of the balance, however, is making sure that they give you the tuning knobs required to make sure that you can shore up on some of your weaknesses.

Feel like these two points r contradictory. Distinct strengths and weaknesses but u can make up for those weaknesses...

What concerns me the most is that there r far too many tuning knobs for blizzard to balance. Class spec, talents, covenants abilities, soul binds, conduits, Legendaries, gear, etc.

[Eapoe]

I think that's the biggest bold faced lie they ever said in an interview, I'm impressed.

Pretty much. I know as a BM Hunter I swap 1 talent between m+ and all other content, and even that’s not necessary.

[Logwyn]

ya but the people who make those kinds of goods are the same ones who won't take any one who doesn't already out gear the content so it wont really matter for most players.

I agree most likely true.

[sylenna]

first you say

If there are situations where people are excluded from content due to their choice, this is where they want to make changes.

then you say

Your covenant choice is also integrated into some of the dungeon experiences as well. There are elements of dungeons that you can only interact with as part of a specific covenant.
An example given is the ability for members of the Kyrian covenant to activate automatons in the Necrotic Wake to gain party buffs.

now i have to add another ten minute layer on top of my m+ search for others to not take my frost dk with them.

joking (not joking, really) aside, this seems to be a bit problematic. you want to sell the concept of covenants, but you (hopefully) also want them to feel very different and also powerful. if you take the above quotes, are you really following through? are the buffs meaningful, are the dungeon interactions really good? if yes, you are actively excluding people with wrong covenant choices from content. if no, the covenant system is weak and the buffs aren't worth the hassle.

and yes, it is the job of a designer, programmer and game director to take into account the different types of players. these players separate rio (not controllable by blizzard, but a big thing to take into account), class, ranged/melee, spec and now covenant depending on how powerful the benefits are. players want the optimal group members and have the metrics (- the individual skill) to check that. so they will exclude others from content.

there can be no winner.

[Alkizon]

Well, they finally stopped being afraid and begin to call things by their proper names, there is no "no, this isn't class - no, this isn't spec" anymore It is what it is - impudent interim "parasite" of underlying system's hierarchy.

Onikaroshi
Sets are not different than let loot be loot though?

Sets are good.

Sets along with raids' content were carrot and balancing/separating part for further/more difficult part of progress/gameplay...
- - - - -
they were kind of "easily switchable" talents that polished shortcomings of particular class/direction of class development (depending on period) recovery/survivability/damage for different types of content, while not changing their essence/emphasizing chosen role (again, depending on period)
- - - - -
Blizzards disfigured progress (both in field of itemization = this part was replaced by RNG/borrowed powers, and in organization of it in concert with content's supply = they gave it to everyone for free, without taking into account overall contribution to the process), sets became unnecessary - now their functions performs by "non-fantasy" (multy-difficulty, RNG, scaling, M+, PvP perks etc) or "parasitic" (see above) game mechanics.

Those, you see - were replaced, and if they used to organically fit in and supplement game's integrity system, then synthetic substitutes assist one that tears it apart. There is no place for them here, devs' philosophy has changed, integrity is unprofitable/inconvenient in current design, sets are redundant/interfering for their policy (this is exactly the reason for "turning them off")