1. #1461
    The first ones, in their hubris, failed to truly defend the Shadowlands as they wanted to, and their creation Maldraxxus was inefficient. Bastion was almost wiped out by the Void, as was Maldraxxus, while Revendreth was almost incinerated by the Light. The first ones and their minions are too weak to stand against what is beyond. Never forget that the Void Lords are, and will always be, the endgame. The pecking order of threats goes like this:

    Void Lords > Old Gods> Sargeras > Jailer > Lich King

    N'Zoth the cunning Old God was so powerful that he came very close to consuming the ENTIRE UNIVERSE, as mentioned in the encounter journal, and he was but a servant of the great ones of beyond. What can the first ones, or anyone really, do against such power?

    Where demi-gods like the dark naaru or Alleria Windrunner fit in all of this, though, I do not know and must investigate further.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-10-09 at 11:59 AM.

  2. #1462
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Remember, they are trying to tell us that they planned this all along and there are people that gobble it up.
    Sometimes different parts of the same faction come to blows. In the real life security agencies can compete with one another.

    For this to make absolutely no sense your need to believe the Jailer has total control over his Faction. Which why would you? If anything the Jailer had been shown to be limited in his power to directly influence people outside the maw, hence his kin long list of agents. So if anything thing this makes more sense then if they all worked in union.

    The Dreadlords would be the jailers agents through someone else and Slyvannas at the time wasn't even agent. So they weren't even getting orders from the Jailer at the time. Plus the Dreadlords would be unlikely to blow their cover for some mortal who might become an ally.

    If we can accept infighting in the Horde and the Legion why is the idea what Jailers Faction doing the same be ridiculous.
    Last edited by WonderZebra; 2020-10-09 at 12:06 PM.

  3. #1463
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    Sometimes different parts of the same faction come to blows. In the real life security agencies can compete with one another.

    For this to make absolutely no sense your need to believe the Jailer has total control over his Faction. Which why would you? If anything the Jailer had been shown to be limited in his power to directly influence people requiring agents. So if anything thing this makes more sense then if they all worked in union.

    The Dreadlords would be the jailers agents through someone else and Slyvannas at the time wasn't even agent. So they weren't even getting orders from the Jailer at the time. Plus the Dreadlords would be unlikely to blow their cover for some mortal who might become an ally.

    If we can accept infighting in the Horde and the Legion why is the idea what Jailers Faction doing the same be ridiculous.
    Because the Dreadlords's fight with Sylvanas was a sidegig and their actual plan was to kill Arthas and seize the Scourge, which if both they and the Lich King were agents of the same dude who's goal involved putting the hat on Arthas would mean that no matter who won, he'd lose. Indeed, if the Jailor was the controlling mind in the helm even Arthas seems an irrelevance since there's no reason he wouldn't be able to dominate an incorporeal, tortured Ner'zhul. All participants are aligned with the Jailor and are after the same thing, except Sylvanas, who the Jailor, a dude who apparently could predict that showing Sargeras an Old God would have him kill all other titans and who later chose her to be his main proxy on Azeroth we can envision he'd scoped out. It's unspeakably contrived and collapses on the slightest inspection.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-10-09 at 12:13 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  4. #1464
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Because the Dreadlords's fight with Sylvanas was a sidegig and their actual plan was to kill Arthas, which if both they and the Lich King were agents of the same dude who's goal involved putting the hat on Arthas would mean that no matter who won, he'd lose. All participants are aligned with the Jailor and are after the same thing, except Sylvanas who the Jailor, a dude who apparently could predict that showing Sargeras an Old God would have him kill all other titans and who later chose her to be his main proxy on Azeroth we can envision he'd scoped out.
    So, often indirect, agents , some of who are trying to keep cover, of a death god fight each other for respective power seems odd for you.

    Let me put it this way: if the Dreadlords win the legion believe they're loyal and the jailer gets some control over the scourge. If the lich king wins the jailer gets control of the Scourge and the Dreadlords keep thier cover. If Slyvannas, someone not under his control yet, wins an manipulable mortal gets the scourge, who he can manipulate and the Dreadlords keep thier cover.

    In the long run the jailer gets the scourge to some degree atleast and the Dreadlords keep thier cover. So unless he planned that to be the exact moment the Dreadlords openly defected it makes some sense to have them fight. the jailer potentially steals an army out of Legion while his agents remain hidden.

    (I'm unaware of the lore that says the Lich king is directly under the jailers control or that he tricked sargeras)
    Last edited by WonderZebra; 2020-10-09 at 12:17 PM.

  5. #1465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The first ones, in their hubris, failed to truly defend the Shadowlands as they wanted to, and their creation Maldraxxus was inefficient. Bastion was almost wiped out by the Void, as was Maldraxxus, while Revendreth was almost incinerated by the Light. The first ones and their minions are too weak to stand against what is beyond. Never forget that the Void Lords are, and will always be, the endgame. The pecking order of threats goes like this:

    Void Lords > Old Gods> Sargeras > Jailer > Lich King

    N'Zoth the cunning Old God was so powerful that he came very close to consuming the ENTIRE UNIVERSE, as mentioned in the encounter journal, and he was but a servant of the great ones of beyond. What can the first ones, or anyone really, do against such power?

    Where demi-gods like the dark naaru or Alleria Windrunner fit in all of this, though, I do not know and must investigate further.
    Whatever voidy shrooms they gave you - I want them too.

  6. #1466
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    So, often indirect, agents , some of who are trying to keep cover, of a death god fight each other for respective power seems odd for you.

    Let me put it this way: if the Dreadlords win the legion believe they're loyal and the jailer gets some control over the scourge. If the lich king wins the jailer gets control of the Scourge and the Dreadlords keep thier cover. If Slyvannas, someone not under his control yet, wins an manipulable mortal gets the scourge, who he can manipulate and the Dreadlords keep thier cover.

    In the long run the jailer gets the scourge to some degree atleast and the Dreadlords keep thier cover. So unless he planned that to be the exact moment the Dreadlords openly defected it makes some sense to have them fight. the jailer potentially steals an army out of Legion while his agents remain hidden.

    (I'm unaware of the lore that says the Lich king is directly under the jailers control or that he tricked sargeras)
    The Helm of Domination is a tool of the Jailor, the new art book and Bolvar's voice lines say that he works through it and Bolvar had to resist it for several years. The Dreadlords work directly for the Jailor. The Legion is at this stage an irrelevance, hell, the dreadlords even comment on this when they're alone. If the Dreadlords are directly loyal to the Jailor and the Lich King is for all intents and purposes a tool of the Jailor, a civil war between the two is pointless. It's not two groups competing for standing in their master's eyes, it's them purposefully diminishing their own side's resources fighting themselves and trying to prevent each other from reaching their own goal.

    Sylvanas as already said, is moot in this discussion, save for it becoming retroactively funnier since given she later becomes his top goon, all groups involved in that civil war are now working explicitly for the same dude and trying to achieve the same aim. Compare with TFT as actually intended and I don't need to tell you what the more coherent, better story is which doesn't require tying one's brain in knots.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-10-09 at 12:23 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  7. #1467
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Helm of Domination is a tool of the Jailor, the new art book and Bolvar's voice lines say that he works through it and Bolvar had to resist it for several years. The Dreadlords work directly for the Jailor. The Legion is at this stage an irrelevance, hell, the dreadlords even comment on this when they're alone. If the Dreadlords are directly loyal to the Jailor and the Lich King is for all intents and purposes a tool of the Jailor, a civil war between the two is pointless. It's not two groups competing for standing in their master's eyes, it's them purposefully diminishing their own side's resources fighting themselves and trying to prevent each other from reaching their own goal.

    Sylvanas as already said, is moot in this discussion, save for it becoming retroactively funnier since given she later becomes his top goon, all groups involved in that civil war are now working explicitly for the same dude and trying to achieve the same aim.
    But they all weren't working for the exact goal. The Dreadlords also need to pose as agents of the Legion.

    If they rolled up to kil'jeaden without event attempting to fight the Lich King they would no something was up. So unless Warcraft 3 was the time to full on reveal invasion time then it makes to keep the Dreadlords hidden.


    Don't the Dreadlords work for Denathrius? Even if he works for the Jailer, the Dreadlords don't directly.

  8. #1468
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    But they all weren't working for the exact goal. The Dreadlords also need to pose as agents of the Legion.

    If they rolled up to kil'jeaden without event attempting to fight the Lich King they would no something was up. So unless Warcraft 3 was the time to full on reveal invasion time then it makes to keep the Dreadlords hidden.

    Don't the Dreadlords work for Denathrius? Even if he works for the Jailer, the Dreadlords don't directly.
    The only reason there's a Scourge civil war at all is because the Dreadlords try to take over the Scourge. Before then they were the Lich King's jailors. They could easily continue doing so and thus skip the need for a civil war, telling the Legion they've reassumed direct control. I.e, exactly what they were going to do anyway in the event that they won the civil war that they unnecessarily started.

    To add to that, the helm being a direct tool of control for the Jailor means that Ner'zhul sending people to kill Tichondrius becomes even worse, as he too is a dreadlord. Re: Dreadlords working for Denathrius, that's the one outstanding element that's unclear, but it doesn't really matter, since they're on the same side. In either case their goals align.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  9. #1469
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    that was my speculation though, that those Valkyr worked for the Jailer, were used to make her think she was destined for the Maw. Just happy to see one of my theories were right

    having deja vu of predicting Archimonde being the final boss of WoD before WoD came out
    That's going to suck if they pull "she was tricked".


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  10. #1470
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It says pretty much explicitly that the directing of the Val'kyr to keep her alive came after their meeting, ditto her mission statement to kill Bolvar. Self-evidently none of this was in evidence in the actual story, but I will give you that this isn't firmly set just yet, so we'll see. If it is as described, then it is a naked contradiction. And I don't need to tell you that Sylvanas's goal being killing Bolvar is something that'd be impossible to infer from her own actions. Indeed, much of this whole business with the helm sounds good on paper, but quickly dissolves on further inspection, especially the more far-reaching theories like the Jailor having been controlling Arthas for all time.
    The passage is as follows:
    He would send those val’kyr to serve as her tethers to mortality. A pact needed to be made. Only then could she return beyond the veil. Only then will the Banshee Queen claim the crown of the false king.
    Note that the Jailer is the one who sends the Val'kyr, and whether or not Sylvanas has any knowledge of the Jailer's plans here is left open and to question - this is all from the Jailer's perspective, and while taking the Helm from Bolvar it doesn't imply that Sylvanas is told this directly by the Jailer at the time. The pact made could easily be the one made between Sylvanas and the Nine Val'kyr, but all this could've just been the preamble needed to eventually get Sylvanas on their side and position her for the stated goal to come. Also, if Sylvanas knew the mission ahead of time (as in directly following the events of Edge of Night) - why not simply claim the Helm from the slumbering Bolvar *before* he woke up from the cask of ice he was in when she first encountered him atop the throne?

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It diminishes these characters by making them the dupes of another villain we both agree is vastly more boring on top of being contradictory. I've taken the piss out of the internal monologue being deceptive, but this is genuinely the only lens through which things like Arthas as Lich King being controlled by the Jailor pan out. Ditto what exactly the function of the Helm is is dubious - if it allows the Jailor to control the wielder fair enough, if its destruction opens the way to the Shadowlands, alright, but why make just one? Why control Arthas but not Ner'zhul? If both the Lich King and the Dreadlords are on his side, why do they fight? And most importantly is this new version where one guy is behind it all more compelling than the more tangled set of conflicting agendas we had before. The TFT Scourge Campaign if read through the lens of the dreadlords being agents of the Jailor, the Lich King being an agent of the Jailor and Sylvanas being groomed to be an agent of the Jailor becomes absolutely retarded.
    They've always been dupes of greater powers, as you put it - it doesn't really diminish them greatly to find out there's yet another greater power manipulating their destinies. The Lich King was a creation of Kil'jaeden, himself a pawn of Sargeras. Sylvanas was literally created by Arthas and/or the Lich King, at least in her current form as a Banshee. I don't think the Helm literally controls the Lich King, either; I think both the Helm and Frostmourne were meant as a foot in the proverbial door for the Jailer - given to the demons through deceptive means in order to make a crack in the Jailer's otherwise inescapable prison. The creation of the Scourge and proliferation of the undead in the physical realm have just been for the purpose of slowly but steadily widening that initial wound, giving the Jailer more and more access to the physical universe, until he could finally establish himself and start *really* using his accrued agents to make changes. Once he had enough wiggle room he, through Sylvanas' and Helya's likely machinations, broke the machinery of death and really started effecting change, diverting all soul energy to the Maw and beginning to free himself in earnest. How the Dreadlords fit into the equation is also an open question - do they serve the Jailer, Sire Denathrius, or do they only serve themselves? One could argue that they were only pretending to be indirectly hostile to the Lich King so that their true loyalities wouldn't be called into question, or possibly they're not a monolith and some Dreadlords like Tichondrius had a true allegiance to the Legion whereas others did not. That all remains to be seen.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-10-09 at 12:49 PM.
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  11. #1471
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The only reason there's a Scourge civil war at all is because the Dreadlords try to take over the Scourge. Before then they were the Lich King's jailors. They could easily continue doing so and thus skip the need for a civil war, telling the Legion they've reassumed direct control. I.e, exactly what they were going to do anyway in the event that they won the civil war that they unnecessarily started.

    To add to that, the helm being a direct tool of control for the Jailor means that Ner'zhul sending people to kill Tichondrius becomes even worse, as he too is a dreadlord. Re: Dreadlords working for Denathrius, that's the one outstanding element that's unclear, but it doesn't really matter, since they're on the same side. In either case their goals align.
    Fair there are other methods to subvert control while remaining cover. But a civil war is a good way to cover the transition power of the scourge from the legion to the jailer especially when the Dreadlords are immortal so killing them doesn't remove them. Or it could just be the Legion higher ups demanded the lich king be removed and they had to do it to keep cover.

    Working for =\= direct control. If Dreadlords work for Denathrius then we're assuming Jailer tells the vampire everything and that orders get passed down the chain exactly for all the parties in the civil war to be on the same page.

    You're also over looking that irl groups working for the same goals will compete with one another. Law enforcement agencies, different members of a gang.

    I'm not saying Blizzard have pulled off some masterclass of a plot twist but it's not some massive flaw in the new writing you think it is. There are so many reasons where the Scourge Civil War makes sense for the Jailers minions to do be that one the jailers orders to cover his uspering of the scourge, indirect orders from a distance mastermind or just underlyings vying for power.
    Last edited by WonderZebra; 2020-10-09 at 01:10 PM.

  12. #1472
    It definitely feels like they were aiming to explain the awful characterization of the Lich King in Wrath rather than have it entirely mesh with the power struggle in TFT, leading to those holes.

  13. #1473
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The passage is as follows:

    Note that the Jailer is the one who sends the Val'kyr, and whether or not Sylvanas has any knowledge of the Jailer's plans here is left open and to question - this is all from the Jailer's perspective, and while taking the Helm from Bolvar it doesn't imply that Sylvanas is told this directly by the Jailer at the time. The pact made could easily be the one made between Sylvanas and the Nine Val'kyr, but all this could've just been the preamble needed to eventually get Sylvanas on their side and position her for the stated goal to come. Also, if Sylvanas knew the mission ahead of time (as in directly following the events of Edge of Night) - why not simply claim the Helm from the slumbering Bolvar *before* he woke up from the cask of ice he was in when she first encountered him atop the throne?.
    The last one is a very good question and it's one of the problems if they go with this route. It, like the bit about her planning to become Warchief, are Schroedinger's plot issue, being both plot problems and not until there's firm confirmation on what's been retconned and what hasn't. Nothing would really stop Sylvanas from taking the helm at this moment, with the assistance of the Val'kyr and especially since the Jailor apparently can exert so much pressure on Bolvar as the host that he nearly breaks at times by Bolvar's own estimate and all Sylvanas really needs to do is take the helm off of an immobile man.

    They've always been dupes of greater powers, as you put it - it doesn't really diminish them greatly to find out there's yet another greater power manipulating their destinies. The Lich King was a creation of Kil'jaeden, himself a pawn of Sargeras. Sylvanas was literally created by Arthas and/or the Lich King, at least in her current form as a Banshee. I don't think the Helm literally controls the Lich King, either; I think both the Helm and Frostmourne were meant as a foot in the proverbial door for the Jailer - given to the demons through deceptive means in order to make a crack in the Jailer's otherwise inescapable prison. The creation of the Scourge and proliferation of the undead in the physical realm have just been for the purpose of slowly but steadily widening that initial wound, giving the Jailer more and more access to the physical universe, until he could finally establish himself and start *really* using his accrued agents to make changes. Once he had enough wiggle room he, through Sylvanas' and Helya's likely machinations, broke the machinery of death and really started effecting change, diverting all soul energy to the Maw and beginning to free himself in earnest. How the Dreadlords fit into the equation is also an open question - do they serve the Jailer, Sire Denathrius, or do they only serve themselves? One could argue that they were only pretending to be indirectly hostile to the Lich King so that their true loyalities wouldn't be called into question, or possibly they're not a monolith and some Dreadlords like Tichondrius had a true allegiance to the Legion whereas others did not. That all remains to be seen.
    It heavily changes the characterization of the parties involved. Ner'zhul no longers goes from a dupe into deceiving the cunning dreadlords of the Legion and betraying the demons who hold him in thrall, nor are the dreadlords looking out for number 1 by trying to take over the Legion, with the Scourge Civil war being the result of clashing factional interests. As for the Helm - the Helm has the whispers of the Jailor in it and Bolvar mentions fighting its will in his audio clips, ergo, that the helm attempts to assert control over the wielder on behalf of the Jailor. It's not being servants of a greater power that is the issue, it's that their rebellion and initiative is no longer their own, nor are their motives the products of self-interest but they're essentially slaves of a great cosmic bore and that having all available parties be in thrall to a single group raises serious problems with the coherence of preceding plot points. Tichondrius could actually have switched sides, true enough, but this is all still up in the air. At the moment I find that this seals a few holes but opens several more and diminishes long-lasting franchise elements in favor of bigging up a new guy who isn't much to write home about.

    To note, some parts of this can be averted by just having the dreadlords explicitly not be a monolith and for the Jailor's influence to have only come in later, rather than having already controlled any of the Lich Kings, but this isn't yet confirmed and they are leaning hard in making this all be his master plan, which is why I'm addressing it as such.

    @WonderZebra

    What competition? The Lich King's helm is a window of the Jailor into the world, he attempts to control the host. On top of being a retcon, since we're in Arthas's head for all of this and can tell what's the Lich King and what isn't, on top of having Chronicle flat out say Ner'zhul tricked the dreadlords (muh Titan's perspective), this isn't office politics involved, it's the core of their entire plan and doing it is more difficult than simply joining forces. This isn't some extremely in-depth scheming involved, the whole point is that the Helm is already in reliable hands and the Scourge is already under control so there's no reason to engage in this whole dynamic to begin with. The Jailor doesn't need to cover for usurping the Scourge because the dreadlords still being the Scourge's jailors with a pliant Lich King is exactly teh status quo before the civil war even begins.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-10-09 at 01:23 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  14. #1474
    Quote Originally Posted by Aktavite View Post
    That's going to suck if they pull "she was tricked".
    I'm not religious, but to my knowledge, some of the religions that worship Jehovah(i think that's the name of the Christian, Jewish, Muslim god) believe in the concept that if you're truly sorry in the afterlife, no matter how evil your sins are in life, you can still go to heaven.

    Now that we know that even the most evil of evil in Warcraft dont even go straight to the Maw, without given a chance, it does make sense that she was tricked.

    I've always thought how the Valkyr assisted Sylvanas was weird and the reason didn't make any sense. Then we see that Sylvanas, who has never been to Stormheim before, is now in contact with Hela the first Valkyr, which immediately points to the Valkyr making that connection. Now that we know Sylvanas should at the very least have gone to Revendreth, but immediately woke up in the Maw and it was the Valkyr who brought her back, while 1 sacrificed themself to take her place(or however it works). it makes sense that it was the Valkyr who brought her there, made her believe that was her and her people's fate and brought her back, putting her on a path of desperation and death that eventually caused her to align with the Jailer.

    From an Alliance PoV, I can understand how there's not much thought into Sylvanas is just bad, they dont really like horde characters or horde stories, but from Horde PoV, a lot of players didn't believe that Sylvanas was this purely evil character and now with this revelation, yeah she did a lot of horrible evil things, but some Cosmic being that's Titan++ in the realm of death interfered with what would have been her true death at Icecrown and led to her probably going to Maldraxxus or maybe some peaceful place. A lot of people are gonna be mad when or if the Arbiter judges Sylvanas of being worthy of redemption, I feel like that's the plan, but I can see a lot of fan backlash(again Alliance players not wanting to accept it) and they just have her erased.

  15. #1475
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The first ones, in their hubris, failed to truly defend the Shadowlands as they wanted to, and their creation Maldraxxus was inefficient. Bastion was almost wiped out by the Void, as was Maldraxxus, while Revendreth was almost incinerated by the Light. The first ones and their minions are too weak to stand against what is beyond. Never forget that the Void Lords are, and will always be, the endgame. The pecking order of threats goes like this:

    Void Lords > Old Gods> Sargeras > Jailer > Lich King

    N'Zoth the cunning Old God was so powerful that he came very close to consuming the ENTIRE UNIVERSE, as mentioned in the encounter journal, and he was but a servant of the great ones of beyond. What can the first ones, or anyone really, do against such power?

    Where demi-gods like the dark naaru or Alleria Windrunner fit in all of this, though, I do not know and must investigate further.
    I actually agree with your list (except for the Jailer thing). The Jailer is 100% stronger than any threat we've seen in WoW, except for MAYBE the Void Lords.

    "What can the first ones, or anyone really, do against such power?" They created everything. Pretty sure they don't care about the Void lmao. I mean, it is their own creation. At best, they'll probably aid us a bit in stopping the Void Lords, but at the end of the day, all of creation is their sandbox. Every divine pantheon in each cosmology is, at best, like children to them. To them, we're literally just nothing. They probably don't even acknowledge our existence until SL. Ya know? Where the Jailer's about to take over the entire Cosmic Chart?

  16. #1476
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The last one is a very good question and it's one of the problems if they go with this route. It, like the bit about her planning to become Warchief, are Schroedinger's plot issue, being both plot problems and not until there's firm confirmation on what's been retconned and what hasn't. Nothing would really stop Sylvanas from taking the helm at this moment, with the assistance of the Val'kyr and especially since the Jailor apparently can exert so much pressure on Bolvar as the host that he nearly breaks at times by Bolvar's own estimate and all Sylvanas really needs to do is take the helm off of an immobile man.
    I think it goes to show that Sylvanas being fully "in" on the plan isn't the intent, otherwise you introduce an unnecessary plot-snarl I'd imagine the writers already thought of (especially considering it was one of the first things I thought of on digesting the new info). As with the Sylvanas as Warchief thing, I think it's just a matter of indistinct chronology here - as I don't think at the time of Before the Storm, for instance, Sylvanas was aware of or even wanted to be Warchief, reflected by her inner monologue regarding it. Later, once she was made more aware of the Jailer's plans (in BfA), she accepted her role as Warchief and leveraged it to her full advantage. Then we're given the brief synopsis with all this in effective hindsight. I don't really considered it a retcon or plot flaw, per se; only a hamfisted and partial explanation. Sylvanas was initially just as shocked as we were by her elevation to Warchief, but later on she was made aware of what the position was meant for her to allow, and she became more comfortable with the role and power afforded her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It heavily changes the characterization of the parties involved. Ner'zhul no longers goes from a dupe into deceiving the cunning dreadlords of the Legion and betraying the demons who hold him in thrall, nor are the dreadlords looking out for number 1 by trying to take over the Legion, with the Scourge Civil war being the result of clashing factional interests. As for the Helm - the Helm has the whispers of the Jailor in it and Bolvar mentions fighting its will in his audio clips, ergo, that the helm attempts to assert control over the wielder on behalf of the Jailor. It's not being servants of a greater power that is the issue, it's that their rebellion and initiative is no longer their own, nor are their motives the products of self-interest but they're essentially slaves of a great cosmic bore and that having all available parties be in thrall to a single group raises serious problems with the coherence of preceding plot points. Tichondrius could actually have switched sides, true enough, but this is all still up in the air. At the moment I find that this seals a few holes but opens several more and diminishes long-lasting franchise elements in favor of bigging up a new guy who isn't much to write home about.
    Not sure how any of this really changes Ner'zhul's characterization? And depending on the whole Dreadlord thing, it may or may not change the characterization of the Dreadlords either. I also didn't say that the Helm or the Jailer couldn't *influence* the Lich King, I just said it didn't literally control them. Bolvar outright says he can fight it, meaning that the influence is less than total. Also taking my speculation into account, I would wager the Jailer's influence on Bolvar was stronger than that of Ner'zhul or Arthas as Lich King. As the Jailer gained more and more access to the physical universe, his ability to influence the Lich King would grow and grow. Taking that into account, I'd say the damage to the initiative of Ner'zhul and Arthas is minimal at best, perhaps even negligible. Taking hindsight into account, I would wager that the Jailer's slowly growing influence on the Lich King is the reason why the Scourge's aethetic seemed to change from Classic on into WotLK, with Arthas's refinements to Icecrown taking on a decidedly different look than what we'd see of Naxxramas, and toward something that started looking more like what we know see of Torghast and the Maw. A nice dovetailing of retroactive storytelling, really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    To note, some parts of this can be averted by just having the dreadlords explicitly not be a monolith and for the Jailor's influence to have only come in later, rather than having already controlled any of the Lich Kings, but this isn't yet confirmed and they are leaning hard in making this all be his master plan, which is why I'm addressing it as such.
    There's a lot that's still up in the air concerning the Dreadlords and their role in all this. I, for one, am taking the whole Dreadlord Missive we find in Revendreth with several grains of salt - not assuming that its author is being 100% truthful.
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  17. #1477
    Old God HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    I mean, didn't the First One's legit make Maldraxxus cause they thought the SL might get fucked by one of their other creations, such as the Light or Void? They kinda shaped everything, and made the Cosmic balance itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Whatever voidy shrooms they gave you - I want them too.
    It's not hard to believe that N'Zoth went beyond the levels of Argus there tbh. Especially considering he had full control of the Black Empire, and became the strongest Old God as a result.

  18. #1478
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    I actually agree with your list (except for the Jailer thing). The Jailer is 100% stronger than any threat we've seen in WoW, except for MAYBE the Void Lords.

    "What can the first ones, or anyone really, do against such power?" They created everything. Pretty sure they don't care about the Void lmao. I mean, it is their own creation. At best, they'll probably aid us a bit in stopping the Void Lords, but at the end of the day, all of creation is their sandbox. Every divine pantheon in each cosmology is, at best, like children to them. To them, we're literally just nothing. They probably don't even acknowledge our existence until SL. Ya know? Where the Jailer's about to take over the entire Cosmic Chart?
    I believe it was the clash between the Light and Void that created the cosmos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Whatever voidy shrooms they gave you - I want them too.
    No you're wrong, the following is stated in the encounter journal of Ny'alotha:
    Ny'alotha, the sleeping city, has awakened. For the first time in millennia, N'Zoth sits on his throne within the Black Empire. His armies flood from their dark halls, once again wreaking havoc on Azeroth. As the world shudders from these invasions, a desperate plan is hatched. Champions from the Horde and Alliance are gathered to face this ancient enemy within his own realm for one final confrontation that will decide the fate of the universe.
    So N'Zoth was a universal threat. During the Mythic phase, he attempts to merge with the very World Soul of Azeroth. The resulted merged being, Azeroth and N'Zoth, would give birth to the Void Titan, an entity so powerful that it can obliterate all that exists, and the mere thought of a Void Titan drove Sargeras insane. N'Zoth was more powerful and dangerous than Sargeras.

    And N'Zoth was a mere minion of the Void Lords. That should tell you how powerful they truly are.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-10-09 at 02:43 PM.

  19. #1479
    Old God HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I believe it was the clash between the Light and Void that created the cosmos.

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    No you're wrong, the following is stated in the encounter journal of Ny'alotha:


    So N'Zoth was a universal threat. During the Mythic phase, he attempts to merge with the very World Soul of Azeroth. The resulted merged being, Azeroth and N'Zoth, would give birth to the Void titan, an entity so powerful that it can obliterate all that exists, and the mere thought of a Void titan drove Sargeras insane. N'Zoth was more powerful than Sargeras.

    And N'Zoth was a mere minion of the Void Lords. That should tell you how powerful they truly are.
    Uhm, Varodoc...

    You do realize something made the Light and Void clash, right? The First Ones probably created the Light and Shadow, as, lemme remind you: Light and Shadow are still within the Cosmic Chart, while the First One's aren't.

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    It doesn't hurt to assume that these guys are above the Cosmic Chart.

  20. #1480
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Uhm, Varodoc...

    You do realize something made the Light and Void clash, right? The First Ones probably created the Light and Shadow, as, lemme remind you: Light and Shadow are still within the Cosmic Chart, while the First One's aren't.

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    It doesn't hurt to assume that these guys are above the Cosmic Chart.
    They aren't in the cosmic chart because Blizzard hadn't invented them back when the first Chronicles came out. The Eternal Ones weren't in the cosmic chart either, it doesn't mean anything. In truth there was only Light in the beginning, as was stated in the Chronicles:

    Before life began and before even the universe existed, there was only the Light. The Light existed as a boundless sea of living energy, swelling across all of existence, unfettered by time and space. Yet as the ever-shifting sea expanded, pockets of cold nothingness appeared, giving birth to a second, opposite force: the Void. The growing tension between the two opposing energies eventually ignited a series of cosmic explosions that gave birth to the physical universe, the Great Dark Beyond.[8]
    The Void was then created as the endless sea of shimmering Light eventually gave birth to pockets of cold nothingness.

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