SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[masterjc]

just a random thought

what if runes on Jailers face were made by Primus/Runecarver

[Syegfryed]

Nightborne are basically altered night elves (they definitely scream night elf way more then night fae), their thematics are way off from the Horde

you are just half right, yes they look like night elf but their thematic was almost identical to blood elves, so even then was not a far off from what we already have

yet they are in the Horde thanks to blood elves. If let's say trolls develop friendship with night fae thanks to Loa, they can easily go Horde... even though I don't think it will happen, it is still possibility we can't deny.

no trolls were found there, except a brief apparition of vol'jin, so no troll develop a friendship over night elf is completely nonsensical, except after the horde got scoled by teldrassil

[Vaedan]

you are just half right, yes they look like night elf but their thematic was almost identical to blood elves, so even then was not a far off from what we already have

Well, not entirely. Nightborne are all about stars and astral thematics, which is heavily night elf theme which was totaly absent on the Horde before their implementation. The only mutual feature with blood elves is magic proficiency, which night elves have to lesser degree as well since cata and lately, blood elves are pushed more into light then into arcane.

no trolls were found there, except a brief apparition of vol'jin, so no troll develop a friendship over night elf is completely nonsensical, except after the horde got scoled by teldrassil

Ardeanweald is all about preserving ancients and loa after they die. We find some loa in Ardenweald and also save some more from the Maw during covenant campaign, so the connection is there... Considering both night elves and trolls are druidic race which worship demigods of nature (be it ancients or loa), they have both same chance of befriending night fae. It is not nonsensical if you take ALL things into consideration, not just those that fit your own interpretation.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

it is bad, unless they completely remove and eradicate factions there is no reason or sense in making a neutral race

Why? What part of race should not/does not have not be linked to faction identity to be meaningful not clicking for you? It's like you are simply running with an assumption with zero exploration of why it is so.

Faction selection was a lot of meaningful until they put pandaren and start swamping races, neutral races are awful and would be there just to chose red or blue in the name, there is no true choice here.

no, i don't want orcs "true choosing alliance" or humans "true choosing horde" and other nonsenses that is awful as fuck

All you keep saying "it's awful" without even giving an explanation. How is it not more of a choice to not being restricted by options segregation and instead chose the faction you like more? Or is it that you actually don't see value on the factions yourself, and only see their different race selections? that's a you problem.

Yeah, it really seems you don't want orcs choosing to play alliance... which is not even the issue here Cause i'm literally saying NEW neutral races allow more choice for players, that's not the same to say ALL RACES SHOULD BE MADE NEUTRAL.

You are conflating two different issues, please pay attention.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

New lore interview with Steve Danuser but it's in another language. Here's some highlights from where I found it.

https://worldofwarcraft.judgehype.co...wlands-164320/

The In-Between is not an empty void. It is full of stuff, including creatures. There is hinting that some people have figured how to travel through it outside of the anima streams.

Time is created by the force of Order, so the further you move from it the less time interacts with you. You literally move outside of time.

The Forsaken and other Undead are judged for the TOTALITY of their existence, not just for what they did when they were a zombie. The Arbiter does not distinguish being animated by Life, or by Death in the calculation.

The Light incinerating the Ember Ward is indeed the actual Light, and it is some sort of incursion. There is also a Plane of Light.

Nerubians were inspired by Maldraxxus, which is why their architecture looks like it does.

The Shadowlands (or perhaps Arbiter) has the ability to on the Fly create new domains to suit a unique cases as judged by the Arbiter. Every soul ultimately goes to a place most suited to them.

We will be seeing these sorts of realms in upcoming patch content.

Helya’s place is a realm in its own right, but it isn’t within the Shadowlands. It is er… ‘Shadowlands Adjacent’.

Looks like we're getting more realms for patch content.

- - - Updated - - -

From auto-translator:

1. Is the Shadowland anima the same as the Mogu? In both cases, we speak of "flow of vital / spiritual energy". And the Mogu use their anima to do “necromancy”.
Despite its name, the substance manipulated by the Mogu in Pandaria is different from the anima found in Shadowlands. The anima that powers the afterlife realms comes only from mortal souls.



2. What happens when a deceased person dies in Shadowlands? Is her soul disappearing? Does she turn into an anima? What happens if our character dies?

The consequences are serious for the souls of the Shadowlands. For example, in the cutscene “The Eternities: Sylvarden”, we could see the spirit of Ursoc disappear forever. The same fate awaits souls who die in battle or are shattered by the Den Jailer.

Remember, our characters are still alive when they step through the veil into Shadowlands. They retain a bond with Azeroth that will bring them back to life if anything bad happens to them.



3. In the video “Eternities: The Bastion”, we saw Frostmourne split Uther's soul in two. In the tale "At Dawn of Night", upon her death at the hands of Arthas, Sylvanas is transported to a beautiful and peaceful place (in Shadowlands?) Before being brutally brought back to Azeroth as the Dead. -live.

Was his soul also divided? Was one part absorbed by the sword, and the other part returned to his body after a brief stint in Shadowlands? If so, is this how Frostmourne normally works? The sword would therefore only partially absorb the soul, the remaining part being grafted onto a corpse to make it an Undead (except in the case of Uther, who was not resurrected by Arthas).

You will learn more about the effect Frostmourne had on Uther's soul as you progress through the story.



4. Uther's soul is known to have been split into two shards: one was absorbed by Frostmourne, the other was sent to the Bastion. But in the history of World of Warcraft, we have encountered echoes of Uther in Azeroth; are they reminiscences of himself?

Uther led a life of bravery that was brutally interrupted by someone he loved deeply. The emotions of Uther and Arthas, mingled with the cosmic forces of life and death that each represented, can have a consequent effect on the mortal soul.



5. How to describe the Entre-Deux? Is it a sea of ​​anima and souls, with its storms and its depths, or is it rather a space without any notion of top or bottom? Does it depend on the perception of the one who crosses it?

The Entre-Deux is an amalgamation of energies that separate the kingdoms of the Shadowlands. It is vast, but far from empty. Marvelous and terrifying entities reside there, and it is said that many secrets are hidden there. It is a chaotic place that few people are able to walk, but rumors claim that a few have learned to navigate it.



6. Are the domains of congregations more like islands or worlds, in terms of size and isolation? Is it possible to "create" land in Shadowlands?

Each beyond is represented by a kingdom of the Shadowlands, separated from the others by the Between Two. The Shadowlands contains an infinity of these realms. As souls are constantly arriving from the mortal plane, new realms must appear to meet the needs of the Shadowlands.

The creation of these realms is a topic that will be covered in content updates for the Shadowlands expansion.



7. Can we assume that the Shadowlands transcend time and space, like the Twisting Nether?

Time is a concept of Order, not of death. The further one moves away from the influence of order, the more time loses its meaning. The beyond of the Shadowlands is meant to be eternal. What role can time play in an endless existence? The strength of Order has influenced life in Azeroth, which is why living mortals view it that way. Unrelated to the plan of mortals, the soul no longer has the same perception.



8. The Undead are meant to be damned for all eternity (since Warcraft I, II, III), but there are a few Forsaken in the Bastion. Does this mean damnation has no impact on the destination of souls in Shadowlands? Shouldn't these souls be sent to Torment, the tower of the Damned?

For the living (and even for the resurrected person), being transformed into the Undead can be synonymous with damnation, but this act does not condemn the soul to the Den or to an eternity of torment. The Arbitrator, while still fulfilling his mission, judged souls with regard to the entirety of their existence, whether their bodies were animated by life or by the necromantic power of death.

Many Forsaken and other Undead have led noble and heroic lives after being revived. The reason for their resurrection does not determine their fate.



9. You mentioned this in a previous interview, but how long have the souls of Azeroth been fully redirected to the Den? You mentioned the Broken Shore, does it go back to that time? Were the soul streams from other worlds also deflected at this time, or did this happen a long time ago?

Truth be told, nothing prevents the flow of souls from Azeroth and other worlds from entering Shadowlands. What has changed is that the Arbitrator no longer judges souls to send them to the hereafter they deserve; these are therefore all thrown into the Den.

When this happened, along with some clues as to why it happened, will be revealed in an in-game cutscene you'll see in Oribos after the expansion's release.



10. As far as we know, the flow of souls was disrupted during the events of the Broken Shore, but Ursoc was able to reach Sylvarden, as we can see in the video dedicated to him. Is this an exception? Is it due to Elune's intervention, the Emerald Dream, or his status as a wild god?

When Ursoc was killed in the Emerald Dream, the Arbiter was still judging souls.



11. In a previous interview, it is said that Maldraxxus is somewhat reminiscent of the Scourge. Is this just visual inspiration or is it part of the story? In addition, we know that Ner'zhul was indeed inspired by the Nerubians for the architecture of his faction.

Remember that the influence of death was present in Azeroth long before Ner'zhul became the Lich King. We may one day discover what the Nerubians were doing in their vast kingdom and what terrible wonders may have inspired them.



12. In the arena of Maldraxxus we have seen creatures that are not from Darklands (demons, naaru, elementals). Have they been captured in previous conflicts between the Maldraxxi and the invaders?

Some have been captured by the Necro-lords, but lately traders are also providing fresh flesh to the arena.



13. In the video "Eternities: Maldraxxus", we see Draka in a demonic world. How can she travel outside of the Shadowlands so easily, and for what?

Maldraxxus exists to defend the Shadowlands from cosmic threats like the Burning Legion. Sometimes it is about repelling invasions, in other cases it is necessary to take the initiative.



14. When he became Lich King, was Ner'zhul aware of the Jailer's existence? Did he seek to free himself from him, and not just from the Burning Legion?

Ner'zhul defied the will of the Legion and was punished. As you progress through the story of Shadowlands, you'll uncover clues to the Jailer's perspective on the Lich King.



15. At BlizzCon, you talked about guides for each area of ​​the Shadowlands: Draka for Maldraxxus, etc. For Sylvarden, you spoke of Cenarius. I've done the Sylvarden questline and the Night Fae questline in Beta, but there is almost no sign of the Night Elf demigod. Will he make his appearance, or has he been replaced by Ysera in the story? I remember that you announced that the return of the ancients during the events of Hyjal, in Cataclysm, would be explained through Cenarius thanks to Sylvarden.

Cenarius was used as an example to speak of the spirits of nature who can slumber in Sylvarden for a time before reincarnating in the cycle. It was never said that Cenarius would appear in Shadowlands.



16. Have long-dead characters like Derek Proudmoore and Thoras Deathlayer reached the Shadowlands? Did bringing them back to Azeroth as the Undead extract their souls from the Shadowlands? If so, have they forgotten what they experienced there?

Mortal souls who enter the afterlife before being revived do not seem to retain any distinct memories of their experience in Shadowlands.



17. We have seen that the Light is actively trying to win Revendreth. The tablets of Maldraxxus also indicate that the Light is a force that opposes the Shadowland; is this also the case for this place (the province of Embers)? Are the elementals "imprinted with Light" linked to the forces of Light that we have seen in the past?

Light is one of the six forces of the cosmos. All these forces are exerted and opposed to maintain the balance of the universe. Just as the Shadowlands is the plane of Death, there is a plane of Light.

The Light that threatens the Ember Province in Revendreth is the same as that seen in Azeroth and other worlds of the mortal plane.



18. About the Gorgoa river, in the Den: everything looks like the afterlife of Greek mythology (the Styx), the river which prevents the dead from leaving again, Helya which makes souls pass (Acheron), all this is orchestrated by the Jailer ... Is there in Azeroth an "entrance" or a semblance of Gorgoa, like the Styx / Acheron in mythology? How does Helya's plan, Helheim, relate to the Shadowlands?

Some realms touch Darklands without being contained in the Plane of Death. This is the case with the kingdom of Helya.



19. Can the souls of living creatures serve as a catalyst for the anima, like Garrosh in the video “Eternities: Revendreth”?

The anima is extracted from souls at the end of their mortal life.



20. Since the Shadowlands can be attacked by any force imaginable in the cosmos, would it have been possible to gain access to this world by any means other than the breach opened by Sylvanas?

In the history of Azeroth, we have seen cosmic forces, like the Burning Legion, win over mortals. The Shadowlands have visible traces of fighting between the armies of Death and other cosmic forces.

For mortals, moving to other planes requires a colossal effort. Sylvanas' actions were intended to weaken the Veil of the Den, and the consequences can be seen in the events of the Shadowlands pre-launch update as well as in the initial Den experience.

[Varodoc]

Truth be told, nothing prevents the flow of souls from Azeroth and other worlds from entering Shadowlands. What has changed is that the Arbitrator no longer judges souls to send them to the hereafter they deserve; these are therefore all thrown into the Den.

When this happened, along with some clues as to why it happened, will be revealed in an in-game cutscene you'll see in Oribos after the expansion's release.

My final predictions for what broke the machine of Death:

[Reminder: It MUST have been an event that happened AFTER the Emerald Nightmare raid in 7.0 (as Ursoc goes to Ardenweald) but BEFORE the Burning of Teldrassil (as all those who died at Teldrassil were sent straight to the Maw)]

- The death of Helya (she rules over a realm adjacent to the Shadowlands, so the fact that a deity of Death was slain in her own plane is serious);
- Illidan opening the rift between Azeroth and Argus (this seems like the kind of climactic event that would destabilize the very structure of the cosmos);
- The death of Argus the Unmaker, an entity connected to Death, and the only time in cosmic history that a fully-grown titan was slain (the titan that Sargeras killed long ago was still in its World Soul state);
- Sargeras stabbing the World Soul of Azeroth. The rift between Life and Death converges on Azeroth, at Icecrown Citadel to be exact. So the fact that Azeroth was almost destroyed by Sargeras could have sent ripples through the Shadowlands and damaged its structure.

It must be one of these, or maybe a combination of all of the above. I have no other explanation.

[LemonDemonGirl]

My final predictions for what broke the machine of Death:

[Reminder: It MUST have been an event that happened AFTER the Emerald Nightmare raid in 7.0 (as Ursoc goes to Ardenweald) but BEFORE the Burning of Teldrassil (as all those who died at Teldrassil were sent straight to the Maw)]

- The death of Helya (she rules over a realm adjacent to the Shadowlands, so the fact that a deity of Death was slain in her own plane is serious);
- Illidan opening the rift between Azeroth and Argus (this seems like the kind of climactic event that would destabilize the very structure of the cosmos);
- The death of Argus the Unmaker, an entity connected to Death, and the only time in cosmic history that a fully-grown titan was slain (the titan that Sargeras killed long ago was still in its World Soul state);
- Sargeras stabbing the World Soul of Azeroth. The rift between Life and Death converges on Azeroth, at Icecrown Citadel to be exact. So the fact that Azeroth was almost destroyed by Sargeras could have sent ripples through the Shadowlands and damaged its structure.

It must be one of these, or maybe a combination of all of the above. I have no other explanation.

This one, most likely. Argus was an actual Titan and had death-themed powers. I could possibly see Sargeras being 'sealed' away doing it too

[darkoms]

New lore interview with Steve Danuser but it's in another language. Here's some highlights from where I found it.

https://worldofwarcraft.judgehype.co...wlands-164320/



Looks like we're getting more realms for patch content.

- - - Updated - - -

From auto-translator:

''The Undead are meant to be damned for all eternity (since Warcraft I, II, III), but there are a few Forsaken in the Bastion. Does this mean damnation has no impact on the destination of souls in Shadowlands? Shouldn't these souls be sent to Torment, the tower of the Damned?

For the living (and even for the resurrected person), being transformed into the Undead can be synonymous with damnation, but this act does not condemn the soul to the Den or to an eternity of torment. The Arbitrator, while still fulfilling his mission, judged souls with regard to the entirety of their existence, whether their bodies were animated by life or by the necromantic power of death.

Many Forsaken and other Undead have led noble and heroic lives after being revived. The reason for their resurrection does not determine their fate.''

My god, I hope we finally stop seeing these stupid messages that all the undead are sent to the Maw simply because they are undead. Sylvanas' fanboys created this myth to justify that their goddess went to the Womb because they didn't want to admit she was a bitch.

[Hugnomo]

This one, most likely. Argus was an actual Titan and had death-themed powers. I could possibly see Sargeras being 'sealed' away doing it too

Yeah I agree. Ever since they first mentioned the machine of death was broken my nº1 hunch has been Argus' death.

[Darknessvamp]

''The Undead are meant to be damned for all eternity (since Warcraft I, II, III), but there are a few Forsaken in the Bastion. Does this mean damnation has no impact on the destination of souls in Shadowlands? Shouldn't these souls be sent to Torment, the tower of the Damned?

For the living (and even for the resurrected person), being transformed into the Undead can be synonymous with damnation, but this act does not condemn the soul to the Den or to an eternity of torment. The Arbitrator, while still fulfilling his mission, judged souls with regard to the entirety of their existence, whether their bodies were animated by life or by the necromantic power of death.

Many Forsaken and other Undead have led noble and heroic lives after being revived. The reason for their resurrection does not determine their fate.''

My god, I hope we finally stop seeing these stupid messages that all the undead are sent to the Maw simply because they are undead. Sylvanas' fanboys created this myth to justify that their goddess went to the Womb because they didn't want to admit she was a bitch.

Considering it was the devs who previously made the point that the Forsaken and Scourge were damned as a whole and made the suggestion that they didn't have a normal afterlife as a result prior to Shadowlands even existing as an expansion concept, I don't see how it was a myth created by "fanboys". All that happened was people tried to reconcile old lore with new lore without realising New Lore was just going to throw out old lore in this expansion. Also the irony of saying Sylvanas initially going to the Maw was because she was sent there by the Arbiter as "she was a bitch" yet Garrosh ended up in Revendreth despite the fact he did far worse in the time before his death in comparison to Sylvanas before she died a second and third time.

[darkoms]

Considering it was the devs who previously made the point that the Forsaken and Scourge were damned as a whole and made the suggestion that they didn't have a normal afterlife as a result prior to Shadowlands even existing as an expansion concept, I don't see how it was a myth created by "fanboys". All that happened was people tried to reconcile old lore with new lore without realising New Lore was just going to throw out old lore in this expansion. Also the irony of saying Sylvanas initially going to the Maw was because she was sent there by the Arbiter as "she was a bitch" yet Garrosh ended up in Revendreth despite the fact he did far worse in the time before his death in comparison to Sylvanas before she died a second and third time.

Where did the developers say this? Where? The curse is that you exist as an undead. It was never said that all the undead go to hell, only Sylvanas went there and that's why her fans started talking this nonsense..
Also I don't know how you determined that Garrosh was worse.

[Super Dickmann]

My god, I hope we finally stop seeing these stupid messages that all the undead are sent to the Maw simply because they are undead. Sylvanas' fanboys created this myth to justify that their goddess went to the Womb because they didn't want to admit she was a bitch.

Given that it was prior canon lore and this is the new lore that supercedes it, I don't see your gotcha here. Rando Dark Rangers and Forsaken fodder mobs said they also saw only darkness when they kicked the bucket and this predated the Maw even being a concept. Though the best part is the idea that pre-Cata Sylvanas was bound for the Maw legitimately considering that people who destroyed planets went to Revendreth and Vashj who worked for not one but two groups that aimed to end the universe went into Maldraxxus directly.

[Nerovar]

Nerubians were inspired by Maldraxxus, which is why their architecture looks like it does.

This is just wrong. The Nerubians used Tol'vir architecture after conquering them. Then again, what did I expect from a guy who wrote himself into the game as a love interest for Sylvanas?

[Super Dickmann]

This is just wrong. The Nerubians used Tol'vir architecture after conquering them. Then again, what did I expect from a guy who wrote himself into the game as a love interest for Sylvanas?

This a nice time capsule of retcons. Originally the Lich King just took it from the Nerubians who built their architecture with spiders on them because they were spider people, all checks out up to now. Then they made the obsidian destroyers a separate race so the nerubians who had them had to be inspired by them and the Lich King built Mordor instead. Except now both were actually inspired by this suspiciously similar world. So the Lich King was inspired by the Nerubians were inspired by the tol'vir who were inspired by Maldraxxus, at least until the Lich King was inspired by the Maw instead.

[Koward]

This a nice time capsule of retcons. Originally the Lich King just took it from the Nerubians who built their architecture with spiders on them because they were spider people, all checks out up to now. Then they made the obsidian destroyers a separate race so the nerubians who had them had to be inspired by them and the Lich King built Mordor instead. Except now both were actually inspired by this suspiciously similar world. So the Lich King was inspired by the Nerubians were inspired by the tol'vir who were inspired by Maldraxxus, at least until the Lich King was inspired by the Maw instead.

Give up. WoW's lore is dead. Let's just all retreat to WC3 and pretend all of this was never written.

[darkoms]

Given that it was prior canon lore and this is the new lore that supercedes it, I don't see your gotcha here. Rando Dark Rangers and Forsaken fodder mobs said they also saw only darkness when they kicked the bucket and this predated the Maw even being a concept. Though the best part is the idea that pre-Cata Sylvanas was bound for the Maw legitimately considering that people who destroyed planets went to Revendreth and Vashj who worked for not one but two groups that aimed to end the universe went into Maldraxxus directly.

It has never been part of knowledge and has never been canon. Arthas also saw only darkness, but it turned out that he saw Devos flying towards him. It's also possible that everyone you named is just really bad guys.
You forget that the Arbiter evaluates personal qualities. Some can be saved and some are not. Also, as far as I know, they abandoned the idea that the soul can be immediately sent to the Maw. All souls are given a chance in Revendreth, and if the valves see that the soul cannot be helped, they throw it into the Maw.

[Super Dickmann]

Give up. WoW's lore is dead. Let's just all retreat to WC3 and pretend all of this was never written.

Honestly, unless where it fucks with themes and story direction, most of this stuff is more funny than it is actively harmful. To whit, nobody gives a flying fuck about the tol'vir retcon these days.

@darkoms

It is quite literally what the NPCs say. Yes, Arthas retroactively saw what he did because Devos scooped him up, but Devos wasn't even intended back then. In Edge of Night, he just went to a vague hell dimension and Sylvanas went to the same one. The Maw wasn't conceptualized as the Maw at the time. So when some bitch says that when she died she saw darkness, we can infer she saw the same as those two prominent characters.

But in any case, I hope we're not seriously arguing that Sylvanas's human experimentation and trying to kill Arthas then offing herself was somehow morally more repugnant than Kael. You know, the guy who turned on his people because of his crack cocaine addiction, keeping his soldiers in line with the same, nuking a town and helping summon the devil to end the universe to get his fix. And that guy at least went to Revendreth, Vashj didn't even go there and she helped both the Legion and the Old Gods, who's end goal was destroying the world and is unrepentant about it since she's still praising Azshara in Maldraxxus. By comparison, if Edge of Night is still canon, dubious though that is, Sylvanas was originally bound for some pastoral realm when she died. It's in fact the very first thing to happen in the story.

Sylvanas Windrunner drifts in a sea of comfort, physical sensations replaced by the purity of emotion. She can grasp bliss, see joy, hear peace. This is the afterlife, her destiny. The eternal sea in which she found herself after she fell defending Silvermoon. She belongs here.

It's pretty transparent that A) Blizzard have nixed undead being damned, which we knew since they datamined Kyrian Forsaken like a year ago and B) Sylvanas was hijacked into the Maw. That or the morality is bonkers which I wouldn't put past Blizzard 'Draenor is free' Entertainment.

[Nerovar]

This a nice time capsule of retcons. Originally the Lich King just took it from the Nerubians who built their architecture with spiders on them because they were spider people, all checks out up to now. Then they made the obsidian destroyers a separate race so the nerubians who had them had to be inspired by them and the Lich King built Mordor instead. Except now both were actually inspired by this suspiciously similar world. So the Lich King was inspired by the Nerubians were inspired by the tol'vir who were inspired by Maldraxxus, at least until the Lich King was inspired by the Maw instead.

I mean, it's pretty obvious that they don't really care. This game has been all style over substance for a long time now.

[Syegfryed]

Why?

why the sky is blue?

What part of race should not/does not have not be linked to faction identity to be meaningful not clicking for you? It's like you are simply running with an assumption with zero exploration of why it is so.

faction and race are tied and linked since the early days of the game, since warcraft 1, why make an absurd change to throw everything in the trashcan and make the factions matter even less?

i like the game how it is, if it was me i would tear then apart even more, is the reason why i came to wow and why i stick here, how the factions and races work.

All you keep saying "it's awful" without even giving an explanation.

pandarens

How is it not more of a choice to not being restricted by options segregation and instead chose the faction you like more? Or is it that you actually don't see value on the factions yourself, and only see their different race selections? that's a you problem.

you can chose the faction you like more, you just have to pick the races available there, because it make sense and is the lore

races that are ancient or newer enemies that will fight till the end of the days, by alliance and horde, is how the game is, and how i like it

Yeah, it really seems you don't want orcs choosing to play alliance... which is not even the issue here Cause i'm literally saying NEW neutral races allow more choice for players, that's not the same to say ALL RACES SHOULD BE MADE NEUTRAL.

If they start making one people will start asking for more, is always like that.

New races should be introduced like it was before, they are enemies and they stick with the horde and alliance to back then up in their own fight

making a new race neutral will make the race pointless, like pandarens, will make their lore null, like pandarens, is shit for storytelling, like pandarens and other problems.

And, we will get only one race instead of 2, in every way is awful

- - - Updated - - -

Well, not entirely. Nightborne are all about stars and astral thematics

that is their aesthetic, im talking about their thematic, they are mages not druids, they are magic crack addicts not tree hug people, so yeah they are basically purple blood elves

Ardeanweald is all about preserving ancients and loa after they die

and?

We find some loa in Ardenweald and also save some more from the Maw during covenant campaign, so the connection is there... Considering both night elves and trolls are druidic race which worship demigods of nature (be it ancients or loa), they have both same chance of befriending night fae. It is not nonsensical if you take ALL things into consideration, not just those that fit your own interpretation.

"loa being in ardenweald" is a weak lame excuse to shove night elves with hooves on the horde, sorry. They are 100% more related to night elves, with ysera and Cenarius being a huge deal there, Tyrande is there and the horde(that means trolls) are scolded by then after teldrassil, so no they should not be horde by any means.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

why the sky is blue?

faction and race are tied and linked since the early days of the game, since warcraft 1, why make an absurd change to throw everything in the trashcan and make the factions matter even less?

i like the game how it is, if it was me i would tear then apart even more, is the reason why i came to wow and why i stick here, how the factions and races work.

pandarens

you can chose the faction you like more, you just have to pick the races available there, because it make sense and is the lore

races that are ancient or newer enemies that will fight till the end of the days, by alliance and horde, is how the game is, and how i like it

If they start making one people will start asking for more, is always like that.

New races should be introduced like it was before, they are enemies and they stick with the horde and alliance to back then up in their own fight

making a new race neutral will make the race pointless, like pandarens, will make their lore null, like pandarens, is shit for storytelling, like pandarens and other problems.

And, we will get only one race instead of 2, in every way is awful

Why are you unable to hold an argument without de-contextualizing a conversation? Why do you pretend equating a fact of nature like saying the sky is blue with a man made ruleset for a game is a serious and not utterly ridiculous argument? Why do you think saying "pandaren" is an argument by itself? Why is it "it's not how it was" all you have?

It's like you are utterly unable to see that a race's narrative value can exist beyond their faction, or that it can't advance if present on both factions, and I'm just saddened by your lack of vision. Just because you can't see beyond an "every race has to pick a side as a whole" reductive ass notion does it make it right.

The sheer fact that your premise of WHY pandaren are a lackluster allied race is... nonexistent and wholly blame their neutrality for it really says all we need to the level of analysis you are bringing to the conversation.