Why so much hate for Tinkerer?

[Teriz]

Because the Dark Ranger is as much just a Hunter in concept as Tinkers are. Or as Death Knights are Warriors.

Yeah, no.

#1. Nathanos was a Hunter trainer.
#2. Dark Rangers were in the Hunter hall in Legion
#3. On mission reports, Dark Rangers are listed as MM Hunters.
#4. Multiple Dark Ranger NPCs have Hunter abilities.
#5. Black Arrow was a Hunter ability for years, and Hunters at one point even had a talent called "The Dark Ranger".
#6. Blizzard has gone out of their way to show that Sylvanas' banshee abilities are not transferable, and Nathanos Blightcaller the head of the Dark Ranger corps is again, nothing more than a Forsaken MM Hunter.

Then googlesearch Sylvanas and afterwards Mekkatorque and look who gets more hits. Sylvanas is the more iconic character and the last three new classes have proven that classes based on iconic Characters sell better than whimsical classes based on niche characters. And what is it now? Do polls matter or do they not? Because whenever it is about bullying and harassing fans of other potential classes, they suddenly matter but when it is about deconstructing your fanfiction that not having Tinkers is what makes Gnomes unpopular, they suddenly don't matter. And can you explain to me why you expect others to give a fuck about your polls when you ignore polls which contradict arguments of yours?

We're not talking about which character is more popular, we're talking about which class is more popular. It has been repeatedly shown that the Tinker is more popular than Necromancers and Dark Rangers. I'm sorry if you can't accept that.

I mean, Druids where always popular due to the whole Jack of all Trades thing and they are currently the best farm characters. Hunters where probably more due to Legolas, considering how much of a meme male Night elf Hunters named Legolas where during classic and bc. Tyrande is not a hunter but a Priestess of the Moon which is an entirely different WC3 concept and not playable. Demon Hunters were not playable up until Legion. But guess what, Night elves were always popular, despite most of their concepts not being playable for the longest time.

Or more likely people are exposed to those races through those characters and want to emulate them. It's no different than a kid watching Iron Man and then wanting to go out to the store and buy an Iron Man toy. If you see Thrall guiding you through cataclysm and wrecking stuff with Doomhammer and lightning bolts, you might be inspired to make your character similar to Thrall. If your favorite character in WC3 was the Blood Mage, you might get inspired to make a Blood Elf fire mage.

What if you get inspired to play a Gnome piloting a mech because you're seeing a lot of Gnomes piloting mechs in WoW?

You got nothing.

I'm honestly amazed I have to explain this to you. It's common sense.

I mean, most of them we saw more often than Mekkatorque up until BFA. I mean, I get it. You don't get into mythic 0 dungeons and you are a BFA kid, but the game is kinda 15 years old and Mekkatorque wasn't a thing in the game up until last year. This doesn't explains their lack of popularity, with mages and warlocks also always being quite common Gnome classes. Not to forget that in the past they had a ridiculously op caster racial.

You didn't answer the question.

But I'm asking you again, do polls matter or not? Either they matter and you have to admit that Gnomes not being able to play Tinkers is a niche reason for their lack of popularity and that gnome and goblin fans are overrepresented on these polls or they don't matter and you give everyone a pass to dump a literal pile of shit on your polls. What is it, boy?

What?

[Lindon]

It is kind of funny that the Tinker class gets brought up again and again and again (usually by the same people) when we already know Blizzards stance on Tinkers as a class.

Blizzard has already said that they don't think Tinkers has any place in WoW being a separate player class. No matter how many "My Tinker ideas" threads you make they won't be added.

[Usernameforforums]

That's an assumption. In one poll, the Tinker got about 400+ more votes than the Necromancer. In another poll the Tinker got over 100+ more votes than any other class option. Alts cannot account for that.

If we take the sample size of the polls themselves, 3 were fairly even and 2 with tinker with majority. Look, we can spin shit too.

Also, polls dont mean shit. Look at trump.

[Teriz]

It is kind of funny that the Tinker class gets brought up again and again and again (usually by the same people) when we already know Blizzards stance on Tinkers as a class.

Blizzard has already said that they don't think Tinkers has any place in WoW being a separate player class. No matter how many "My Tinker ideas" threads you make they won't be added.

The two current Tinker threads were started by two different posters.

Also please link to that statement from Blizzard. I would love to see it.

- - - Updated - - -

If we take the sample size of the polls themselves, 3 were fairly even and 2 with tinker with majority. Look, we can spin shit too.

Yeah, spin it into nonsense. One poll had what was equivalent to a "none of the above" option, that skewed the polls more towards being even. Take that option out, and the Tinker wins handily, as was the case with the Tinker vs Necromancer poll. The other even poll ended too quickly, not allowing enough votes to materialize.

Two of the 4 polls without those issues had the Tinker well into the majority. It wasn't even a contest.

Also, polls dont mean shit. Look at trump.

Actually those polls were very accurate. Hillary Clinton led Trump nationally by about 3%. She won the popular vote by 3 million votes. Trump is president because of the US' bizarre electoral college system.

[Ielenia]

Meaningless to you, but not meaningless in terms of why a Tinker class is a viable concept.

No, they are still meaningless. Because you so far have failed to show any evidence that those "similarities" have any actual influence on class design.

Yes it did. However if you're implying that Blizzard can remove the Necromancer's concepts from the DK the way they removed the DH concepts from Warlocks, you're sadly mistaken.

Because you work at Blizzard and hold the "Lead Class Designer" job?

Except it isn't profession locking because the Tinker player can drop the profession at any time.

Which brings us back to:

the "accountant that doesn't know math"/"astrophysicist that doesn't know astronomy" problem.

[kaminaris]

Even on this site, tinker was more popular than necromancer so title of this thread is already false. People don't really hate it.
And if we would go with class that comes next to wow based on popularity on fansites, it would be tinker.

[Teriz]

No, they are still meaningless.

Your opinion. Thanks for sharing it.

Because you so far have failed to show any evidence that those "similarities" have any actual influence on class design.

The evidence would be the three expansion classes which all have the same general background.

Because you work at Blizzard and hold the "Lead Class Designer" job?

Because common sense would tell you that the Death Knight is the Necromancer class of WoW.

Which brings us back to:

Which would make sense if we're talking about the real world. Fortunately we're talking about a video game.

[justandulas]

No new class until necromancer is added

Necromancer is consistently #1 most desired class when polled, going all the way back to vanilla. You could find polls where necro topped dk and dh, so tinkerer can get in line

Also, tinkerer is more of an engineering profession rather than class

[Teriz]

No new class until necromancer is added

Necromancer is consistently #1 most desired class when polled, going all the way back to vanilla. You could find polls where necro topped dk and dh, so tinkerer can get in line

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...r-for-the-game

Also with Shadowlands not bringing in a Necromancer class, I think its fair to say that that ship has sailed.

[Ielenia]

So I've noticed something interesting in the links that Teriz posted here:

• The first link, from January 2018, shows the tinker with a 50% advantage over the necromancer.
• The second link, from April 2019, shows the tinker class having an incredible lead over the other class ideas.
• The third link, from October 2019, shows the tinker with a small lead over the other options.
• The fourth link, from May 2020, shows the tinker only having a marginal lead over the other options.

Why is that significant? It's showing a decrease in the tinker's popularity since the past year.

[Sorrowseer]

I don't like steampuk, I hated the mechagon zone, is it a part of wow lore, yes, does the class make sense, to me no, but its fantasy so while we cannot make battle worthy reobotic creaations seemingly a fantasy world can, not arguing that its not valid lore wise or whatever, I just dislike steampunk so the less of it the better for me.

[goldlock]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...r-for-the-game

Also with Shadowlands not bringing in a Necromancer class, I think its fair to say that that ship has sailed.

It sailed when both warlocks and dks entered the game since each take up a large stake on what the classes gameplay identity would be.

I don't think wow needs anymore classes and if it does the only vacant role I can see is a mid ranged class designed to fight in a 20yard zone... nothing else I can think of isn't taken or mechanically viable.

[Soluna]

Because there are around 20 classes that makes more sense and I (and probably others) would rather see implemented than tinker. Necromancer, Spellsword, Dark Ranger, Spellbreaker...; there are far more classes that are better than tinkerer: we have engineering for it, and i rather have an extension to it than a class around it. If they want, they could make Tinkerer an earnable spec from engineering, but it's own class? Nah.

All the examples you mentioned are stuff that would have a hard time branching into 2-3 specs, and we already have classes that play like them. A tinkerer would be a new fresh experience. I am personally not into any classes other than the vanilla ones, I never got into dk/monk/dh.

[Ielenia]

Your opinion. Thanks for sharing it.

No, that's a fact. It's a fact that you haven't shown those "similarities" to matter at all in class creation.

The evidence would be the three expansion classes which all have the same general background.

That's evidence of correlation, and not of causation, Teriz.

Because common sense would tell you that the Death Knight is the Necromancer class of WoW.

Just like "common sense" dictated that the warlock was the demon hunter class of WoW ever since Wrath went live.

Which would make sense if we're talking about the real world. Fortunately we're talking about a video game.

We're talking about a fantasy world that still obeys basic logic and narrative logic.

[Pony Soldier]

I think a class that implements robots and technology to fight is an awesome concept. What gets annoying to me is despite us already having so much variety in the game it's still not enough for some people. It's as if people demand for a race/class and once we have it they're immediately on to the next idea without even actually fully playing the race/class they begged years for. Like it's more of a collection thing than it is a gameplay thing. It's like constantly buying new games when you have a plethora of other games you haven't even touched or completed yet (I'm guilty of this).

Blizzard could come out and say they're flat out not adding anymore new classes or races and I'd be fine with that. I'd rather have them spend more time and resources on more customizable options for our characters and new gameplay features. Improve on what we already have to, you know, actually make the game better and more fun instead of piling on new races/classes that people will play for a couple days then abandon.

Again I'm not hating on the Tinkerer idea I just feel we're at a point in WoW where I'd be fine without any new races/classes to play as because I feel there are way more important things Blizzard can be improving on.

[Shiza]

Yeah, no.

#1. Nathanos was a Hunter trainer.
#2. Dark Rangers were in the Hunter hall in Legion
#3. On mission reports, Dark Rangers are listed as MM Hunters.
#4. Multiple Dark Ranger NPCs have Hunter abilities.
#5. Black Arrow was a Hunter ability for years, and Hunters at one point even had a talent called "The Dark Ranger".
#6. Blizzard has gone out of their way to show that Sylvanas' banshee abilities are not transferable, and Nathanos Blightcaller the head of the Dark Ranger corps is again, nothing more than a Forsaken MM Hunter.

Hunters also can use tech gadgets, boy.

We're not talking about which character is more popular, we're talking about which class is more popular. It has been repeatedly shown that the Tinker is more popular than Necromancers and Dark Rangers. I'm sorry if you can't accept that.

Which is your claim which you can't back up, boy.

Or more likely people are exposed to those races through those characters and want to emulate them. It's no different than a kid watching Iron Man and then wanting to go out to the store and buy an Iron Man toy. If you see Thrall guiding you through cataclysm and wrecking stuff with Doomhammer and lightning bolts, you might be inspired to make your character similar to Thrall. If your favorite character in WC3 was the Blood Mage, you might get inspired to make a Blood Elf fire mage.

What if you get inspired to play a Gnome piloting a mech because you're seeing a lot of Gnomes piloting mechs in WoW?

You got nothing.

I'm honestly amazed I have to explain this to you. It's common sense.

I always thought its called having entitlement issues and an authoritarian personality. But then again, nobody wants to play a Gnome, so why pander towards a small minority which isn't financially profitable instead of more mainstream tastes? Especially since the one time they tried it with Monks, it ended up not being popular. Also, you constantly argue with Ironman. Wouldn't the ironman fantasy quite contradict basing a mechanical class on gnomes? I mean, an important part of the fantasy of being Ironman is also being Tony Stark, who is a smart, attractive and well build playboy billionaire. Which isn't satisfied by being locked into a garden gnome with testosterone issues which seem to be common among gnomes, while the most intelligent gnome in Lore barely managed to press a Button.

You didn't answer the question.

I did. Mekkatorque only became a character halfway relevant (though still less than most other leaders) in BFA, yet Gnomes where always an unpopular option, even when the most common representation of them in the actual game where casters.

What?

I'm asking you if we should consider polls or not, boy. Is that so hard to understand? I consider it a very easy question, especially for the guy who wants to roleplay the big brain tinker boi. Either you also acknowledge polls of others which contradict your personal opinions like the one which shows us that not having a thematically fitting class is only a minor issue and that gnome and goblin fans are overrepresented on this forum or I ignore your polls. I mean, I don't know in which kind of wish fulfillment fantasy world live in, but I don't pander this kind of shit, so chose one.

[Soluna]

No new class until necromancer is added

Necromancer is consistently #1 most desired class when polled, going all the way back to vanilla. You could find polls where necro topped dk and dh, so tinkerer can get in line

Also, tinkerer is more of an engineering profession rather than class

What would a necromancer do that a warlock or dk doesn't? Like seriously, whether ppl like it or not, necromancer is impossible due to the amount of abilities dk/warlock would have to lose. Look at what happened to Demo as a result of DH. So many loved abilities just taken away.

[goldlock]

What would a necromancer do that a warlock or dk doesn't? Like seriously, whether ppl like it or not, necromancer is impossible due to the amount of abilities dk/warlock would have to lose. Look at what happened to Demo as a result of DH. So many loved abilities just taken away.

Yeah once DKs were a thing in wrath I gave up on necromancers even though they are one of my favorite fantasy spell casters. That and they would be really rough to fit into the lore more so then dks since you can't argue necromancers dont know what they are doing and they lack that for the greater good warlocks have.

[Teriz]

No, that's a fact. It's a fact that you haven't shown those "similarities" to matter at all in class creation.

You saying its "meaningless" is not a fact.

That's evidence of correlation, and not of causation, Teriz.

It's still evidence.

Just like "common sense" dictated that the warlock was the demon hunter class of WoW ever since Wrath went live.

Yes, which is why Metamorphosis had to be removed from Warlocks in order for Demon Hunters to become a viable class.

We're talking about a fantasy world that still obeys basic logic and narrative logic.

And basic logic should tell you that you can't apply real world logic to a video game.

Yet here we are (again).

[Hero2Zer0]

My only issue is they made engineering to fill a bit of the tinkering niche. I already dislike mechagnome because of there non transmoggable appendages. Mech suits are already mounts in the game. The only thing were missing is some form or turret.